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Newmodeller96
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Ok. A "headshunt" is simply shorthand for saying that the fan of EMU sidings would feed into just one platform (or not a platform, as recommended in this case). From there the units would reverse on to the main line, and then reverse again into whichever platform you choose.

 

I still feel that is your best option for gaining platform and siding lengths, and maximum flexibility. Your design looks far too complex and "squashed" to me, to be viable. Robin's latest plan is better, but is still constrained.

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I'm sure a triple slip is technically feasible... can't recall ever seeing one though, and there's probably a reason for that! I can only recall one instance of even seeing a picture of where 3 rails all cross the same position, and i think that was a victorian era dual gauge formation...

 

2x symmetrical 3-way points back to back would probably be easier if you absolutely had to do that formation, however despite how good a space saver symmetrical 3 way points are, they're not that common on the prototype. I'd missed the comment about bespoke track work earlier; if cost of track is a concern that is making you keep hold of set track curves for the time being, then avoid bespoke track work at this stage! (unless it's something you fancy tackling yourself, but there's lots of tools, guides, and parts to get hold of first)

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@Mike Storeythank you for this information. It puts much more into perspective. 
 

I have put some thought into the plan, I know that the main yard is still to complex, I was just seeing what I could include. 81E0F65C-4EFB-46B9-9EBF-4048A1379AAE.jpeg.70b91d6275a2de4b68a7da590bded82b.jpeg
I also need to add some space between tracks 2&3 to create that platform. In doing this it will widen the gap between the shed and the head shunt at the station. The next job is making the basic fiddle yard. 

Thanks H

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Ref fiddle yard; how much stock do you have? With the amount of visible sidings and train storage you already have in your design you might be ok with just 2 hidden loops on each line to represent the rest of the world.

 

Using model railway exhibitions as an example, i'm as guilty as most here for wanting to have a look at what is in the fiddle yard rather than just watching a layout run. there have been some good layouts in the past that have taken that fact and stored most of the stock 'on scene' in suitable carriage sidings, goods yard, loco depot, etc and only needed a couple of hidden loops to create the illusion of trains travelling to the rest of the world.

 

The other bonus of that is track work in a big fiddle yard can be a very major expense. Some clubs use the same fiddle yard for multiple layouts to avoid repeating that cost each time. Small fiddle yards with only a couple of tracks are much simpler to create.

 

HTH

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22 minutes ago, Newmodeller96 said:

@Mike Storeythank you for this information. It puts much more into perspective. 
 

I have put some thought into the plan, I know that the main yard is still to complex, I was just seeing what I could include. 81E0F65C-4EFB-46B9-9EBF-4048A1379AAE.jpeg.70b91d6275a2de4b68a7da590bded82b.jpeg
I also need to add some space between tracks 2&3 to create that platform. In doing this it will widen the gap between the shed and the head shunt at the station. The next job is making the basic fiddle yard. 

Thanks H

 

You need a way to be able to get back to the inside line from platforms 4 and 5 too.

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One of the things about this type of layout - it happens when the layout area is approximately square -it invites a continuous loop run. Very often in this situation, the layout builder just installs a through station on the circuit and whatever peripherals they want. When you have a terminus station, the terminus can only feed trains onto the layout in one direction and they have have no direct route back. A train has to cross the tracks somewhere and reverse in. Would never happen on a real railway and not even in my very sceptical operating parameters. However, there is scope to make the bottom yard partly a through station; then trains can terminate and justifiably reverse back to the terminus.

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Thanks @RobinofLoxleyfor getting me thinking. Have decided to add a small suburban station opposite the diesel/loco yard with a terminus platform and a through platform. The station also has a storage siding for a loco.

 

just want to work out how to link it all scenically at the right hand side of the plan now but think I have an idea. 
 

4398D368-27EE-4CA4-93F0-CA60B99E8B40.jpeg.84feb0aa231f1d879c4b3c85e01b7be8.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Newmodeller96 said:

Thanks @RobinofLoxleyfor getting me thinking. Have decided to add a small suburban station opposite the diesel/loco yard with a terminus platform and a through platform. The station also has a storage siding for a loco.

 

just want to work out how to link it all scenically at the right hand side of the plan now but think I have an idea. 
 

4398D368-27EE-4CA4-93F0-CA60B99E8B40.jpeg.84feb0aa231f1d879c4b3c85e01b7be8.jpeg

Maybe a little unusual for a station to have a through platform only accessible by trains moving in a single direction (clockwise in your plan). Passengers travelling anti clockwise couldn’t alight here, or indeed board. Hence a return journey would be impossible.

Edited by ITG
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I would just use the line below the engine terminal as a reversing siding - a train arrives in Platform 1 at the top, and terminates. It then proceeds to the reversing siding, from where it can change direction and run back round the outer/ clockwise line, either shunting via platforms 3/4 to the MU Shed, or forming a new service from Platform 2.

 

If the train is loco hauled, it could also change engines at the reversing siding - though it looks like it would be tight to get anything more than a loco + 3 into the siding.

 

The engine sidings could easily be simplified too.

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this layout is still way too complex in a number of areas - surprised to see you adding track on what is supposed to be a lift-out section? The trackwork has got to be simpilfied before you move from plan to track laying, especially the terminus station.

 

Operationally you still have  many challenges. I made the point about trains being unable to return to the terminus, it still holds because trains emerging from any terminus platform will be on the inside track and therefore can't reach any of the small station platforms. Its important in general to visualise what operations the trains on th elayout can actually achieve. Whether they are prototypical or not is another thing altogether. If you look back at my layout you will see I left gaps where platforms might go, as a sort of hint...

 

 

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By NSE days, stations had rationalised their trackwork a lot, with big pressure to use simple, standard pointwork wherever possible… lots of double slips in a station throat suggests steam era or Kings Cross ;)

 

If you already have three-way points, double slips, or scissors crossovers, might be better to use them to improve the fiddle yard!

 

I've had to cut back the scope of my own layout… which is a shunting layout in N on a salvaged 1200x200mm board. Which will no longer have a loop. Which means… more shunting, ok, not so bad then :)

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Thanks for this @BusDriverMan and @RobinofLoxleythe main reason I have gone with this track work is that it was the track work I got off a map of Orpington station and what track work is there now hence the plan. I have simplified some of it but the main part of point work at the station is the cross over into the storage lines. 

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18 hours ago, Newmodeller96 said:

Thanks for this @BusDriverMan and @RobinofLoxleythe main reason I have gone with this track work is that it was the track work I got off a map of Orpington station and what track work is there now hence the plan. I have simplified some of it but the main part of point work at the station is the cross over into the storage lines. 

 

I can see what and why you would want to do that, but the plain fact is that this will severely constrain the flexibility of the layout, constrain its "play value" and constrain the length of all trains.

 

Recreating (part of) a "real" location is absolutely fine, but you must recognise what that will leave you with, in the space that you have available. Are you sure this one element will keep you interested in operating the layout for many years to come?

 

As others have said, simplicity is a far better solution, as discovered by many, many layout builders.

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Thank you @Mike Storey and @RobinofLoxley I have been sitting with my design today and also some paper track diagrams and seeing what I can do to simplify the design! I have put robins design into mine and been playing around but I just can’t seem to make it flow how I want it to in my head and am not getting back to not being sure where to head next! 

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The one thing you don't seem to get your head around is the business about running on the left hand side of a double track mainline.  This results in us repeatedly saying things like "trains emerging from any terminus platform will be on the inside track and therefore can't reach any of the small station platforms" @RobinofLoxley or "One immediately noticeable problem - the EMUs can get into the shed ok but there's no way out for them unless they run wrong line" @The Stationmaster or "A train arriving in the far right track at the terminus cannot then depart and cross to the correct (inner) line" (Me) etc etc etc.  Much as we like to help, it's a little bit frustrating when the same issue crops up again and again ......... Sorry, but :wacko:

Edited by Chimer
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So @Chimeri have changed the small station so that there are now 2 platforms on both sides of the track, so it can be reached from all platforms.
 

What have I missed about “wrong line”? Trains come out of the emu depot in the top left and onto platforms 3,4 or 5 as I wanted and from those they can then get onto either line.

 

trains from both the depot at the bottom and the emu depot at the top can get onto both the inside and outside line. I’m not sure what else I’m meant to add so that the trains can get onto either line?

 

I’m sorry that someone newer to the hobby than yourself doesn’t immediately understand an issue when we are just thrown terminology that we might not necessarily understand instantly. A bit of help is sometimes easier than just random comments and emojis that don’t help us enjoy the hobby and put more people off wanting to “model”.

D9ABD144-7BEC-4818-88F5-A4AB1231CD02.jpeg.fff1adbe42e3ab6a96271208edbd546e.jpeg

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Question; not that I'd want to overly complicate your thought processes on what you're building anymore than they already are, but are you able to use any extra space inside your operating well? More specifically, could you add a small corner board to give space to add a balloon loop next to what I'm assuming is the chimney at the end of roof space? You'd need to turn your terminus station around, but it would help with returning and could simplify your fiddle yard so you could go scenic all around the room...... the down side is gradients become involved if it's to pass/under your mainline.

 

 

Screenshot_20210117-171501_Samsung Internet.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Question; not that I'd want to overly complicate your thought processes on what you're building anymore than they already are, but are you able to use any extra space inside your operating well? More specifically, could you add a small corner board to give space to add a balloon loop next to what I'm assuming is the chimney at the end of roof space? You'd need to turn your terminus station around, but it would help with returning and could simplify your fiddle yard so you could go scenic all around the room...... the down side is gradients become involved if it's to pass/under your mainline.

 

 

Screenshot_20210117-171501_Samsung Internet.jpg

I’m not 100% sure what you mean? Would that balloon loop be beneath the board?

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15 minutes ago, Newmodeller96 said:

So @Chimeri have changed the small station so that there are now 2 platforms on both sides of the track, so it can be reached from all platforms.
 

What have I missed about “wrong line”? Trains come out of the emu depot in the top left and onto platforms 3,4 or 5 as I wanted and from those they can then get onto either line.

 

trains from both the depot at the bottom and the emu depot at the top can get onto both the inside and outside line. I’m not sure what else I’m meant to add so that the trains can get onto either line?

 

I’m sorry that someone newer to the hobby than yourself doesn’t immediately understand an issue when we are just thrown terminology that we might not necessarily understand instantly. A bit of help is sometimes easier than just random comments and emojis that don’t help us enjoy the hobby and put more people off wanting to “model”.

D9ABD144-7BEC-4818-88F5-A4AB1231CD02.jpeg.fff1adbe42e3ab6a96271208edbd546e.jpeg

 

Ref this plan; imagine trains are always driving on the left (same as uk roads); the crossover I've marked at the top only really helps trains travelling clockwise get from the outer to inner lines so probably isn't needed. Any trains changing direction at the station would use the terminus platforms, and any trains travelling anticlockwise around the layout would have no need to go from the inner to outer line there.

 

Where that crossover is needed though in the bottom left so that trains travelling anticlockwise on the inner line can get across to the reversing sidings, as I've drawn on. Pic at bottom of post HTH

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Newmodeller96 said:

I’m not 100% sure what you mean? Would that balloon loop be beneath the board?

 Either above or below, wherever makes more sense as a plan develops. But to start with would a circle of at least radius 2 curved track fit in there... preferably radius 3!

Screenshot_20210117-172343_Samsung Internet.jpg

Edited by Satan's Goldfish
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1 minute ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Ref this plan; imagine trains are always driving on the left (same as uk roads); the crossover I've marked at the top only really helps trains travelling clockwise get from the outer to inner lines so probably isn't needed. Any trains changing direction at the station would use the terminus platforms, and any trains travelling anticlockwise around the layout would have no need to go from the inner to outer line there.

 

Where that crossover is needed though in the bottom left so that trains travelling anticlockwise on the inner line can get across to the reversing sidings, as I've drawn on. HTH

 Either above or below, wherever makes more sense as a plan develops. But to start with would a circle of at least radius 2 curved track fit in there... preferably radius 3!

Screenshot_20210117-172343_Samsung Internet.jpg

I think a radius 2 would fit but it would be tight for a radius 3.

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1 hour ago, Newmodeller96 said:

 

What have I missed about “wrong line”?

D9ABD144-7BEC-4818-88F5-A4AB1231CD02.jpeg.fff1adbe42e3ab6a96271208edbd546e.jpeg

 

Well, on this particular plan, what you've missed is that trains cannot get into the terminal platforms on the small (bottom) station without running wrong line from the top station.  If we're using terminology you don't understand, which I know we tend to do far too much, you only have to ask, as you just did about balloon loop .......

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18 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Well, on this particular plan, what you've missed is that trains cannot get into the terminal platforms on the small (bottom) station without running wrong line from the top station.  If we're using terminology you don't understand, which I know we tend to do far too much, you only have to ask, as you just did about balloon loop .......

Thank you for that! Where from your point of view would you put the cross over from the inside line to the station? 
 

also is there a rule about what would be the “up” or “down” line! 
 

thanks

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1 hour ago, Newmodeller96 said:

I think a radius 2 would fit but it would be tight for a radius 3.

 

Sorry how messy this is, hope it makes sense: Mirror image your whole station and EMU shed layout at the top*. Add a junction at the station throat so you now have 4 running lines in front of your water tank instead of a fiddle yard. 2 lines at the front go down a gradient to a new lower fiddle yard in front of your diesel depot. Balloon loop at end of fiddle yard under scenery, make sure it's accessible for derailments! 

 

20210117_185510.jpg.7cbee400f3a87d5d49c3a14af99c6814.jpg

 

Means you can have 360 degree scenery around the whole layout, only 1 station to worry about getting point work correct but there's still a destination for your trains to go to, and no handling engines to swap ends in the fiddle yard.

 

*might be slight differences to make it flow better as a mirror image, tough to tell without drawing it.

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46 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Sorry how messy this is, hope it makes sense: Mirror image your whole station and EMU shed layout at the top*. Add a junction at the station throat so you now have 4 running lines in front of your water tank instead of a fiddle yard. 2 lines at the front go down a gradient to a new lower fiddle yard in front of your diesel depot. Balloon loop at end of fiddle yard under scenery, make sure it's accessible for derailments! 

 

20210117_185510.jpg.7cbee400f3a87d5d49c3a14af99c6814.jpg

 

Means you can have 360 degree scenery around the whole layout, only 1 station to worry about getting point work correct but there's still a destination for your trains to go to, and no handling engines to swap ends in the fiddle yard.

 

*might be slight differences to make it flow better as a mirror image, tough to tell without drawing it.

Ahh unfortunately the reason I can’t be this complex on the track in front of the water tank is that I want it to be removable.
 

My original thought was to put a helix near the water tank so it would drop down there and go under the diesel depot for storage but I scrapped that for the continuous run! I totally get where you are coming from so I could think of something! 

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