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Class 116/118 DMU


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I was wondering that now Bachmann have released the Class 117 DMU’s, and stunning as they are, could Bachmann now release the Class 118 DMU as I believe the only difference was the shape of the headcode box?

 

I don’t know how close the Class 116 is in body profile to a Class 117 apart from no roof mounted headcode box.  It would be nice to see Bachmann get extra mileage from this model.

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This has been covered elsewhere on the forum in the fairly recent past, but the first half-dozen (I think) Class 117s had the same curved top to the headcode box as the Class 118s.......which I admit is not much help if you want a Class 118! Never say never, I think the two are too similar to be worth the tooling changes but there's always the enticement of that dazzling 'British Telecom on the Line' liveried set! And it would be another class of DMU covered - after all, we have a Class 48 on its way......

The Class 116 would definitely be worthwhile - Bachmann produces the Class 108 with both cab designs - the centre trailer would require new tooling but yes, this one should be seriously considered IMHO - extra mileage as you say. Makes sense.....

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The 116 would IMHO have been a better choice in the first place but both Lima and Bachmann disagree with me.  More numerous than 117 and 118 combined, and distributed over a much wider geographical area.

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The 116 would IMHO have been a better choice in the first place but both Lima and Bachmann disagree with me.  More numerous than 117 and 118 combined, and distributed over a much wider geographical area.

 

True, but you have far more livery variants with a Class 117 which seems to be more important to manufacturers.

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13 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

True, but you have far more livery variants with a Class 117 which seems to be more important to manufacturers.

Probably more a case of the body and formation changes. Class 117/118 were fairly static in their shape and formation IIRC. The 116 had variations with two lights with or without a headcode panel between, 4 lights, three lights with no headcode panel, two lights with high intensity headlight between, etc, etc. Then gangways were added to many, a lot of these getting centre Lav coaches from other types.

The basic liveries I have found started with light DMU green or dark DMU green with variations of no whiskers, whiskers but no lining, whiskers with lining, SYP with and without lining. They progressed to Rail Blue SYP or FYE then refurbs got blue stripe on white and lost the headcode panels. Following that there was the blue/grey era then a few got NSE livery.

Livery embellishments included at least four variations of WMPTE branding plus the one with Royal Wedding flags, two versions of the Red Dragon sets and Greater Glasgow/Transclyde. Most liveries had examples with a white cab roof. Tyseley has one with the grey band extended round the corners of the cab and black cab window frames.

Some cars were used in parcels sets with Red Star or Railair branding.

Makes the 117/118 seem easy, and I've probably missed a few.

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On top of that there two variants of centre trailer, TS and TC, TCs mostly being downgraded during the early 70s (in South Wales at least).  OTOH underframes, and interiors from the 117 in the case of the DMBS and DMS can be used, and the gangways were added to the 117/8s long after their introduction.  The addition of gangways on all 3 types meant that alterations to the interiors, with doors added between the saloons and the removal of seating in their way.  This was done in connection with the de-staffing of stations and the sale of tickets on the train by the guard. 
 

All in all the difficulties and number of toolings needed are not much greater with 116s than 118s, and I would have thought that the appeal of a longer serving and more widely geographically distributed (117/8s were confined to the WR) train would increase potential sales sufficiently to make it worthwhile, but perhaps it would be more attractive to one of Bachmann’s competitors.  
 

Dare I suggest Hatton’s?

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

(117/8s were confined to the WR)

I think you'll find that some 117s were sent to Scotland.

 

Chris

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On 08/01/2021 at 03:03, The Johnster said:

The 116 would IMHO have been a better choice in the first place but both Lima and Bachmann disagree with me.  More numerous than 117 and 118 combined, and distributed over a much wider geographical area.

 

 

Put really simply, Bachmann would have sold me at least three 3 car 116s had they chosen the 116 instead of the 117. But, i live in hope that either Bachmann or Dapol see sense. Dapol of course already have the majority of the CAD to produce the tooling in the shape of their 122 of which I have a pair. 

 

In case your are listening Bachmann or Dapol it is three Tyseley sets covering the period from 1960 to about 1970 - light green, dark green and blue. Much as I think the 117s are great models, they just don't do it for my modelling period and region. 

 

Regarding the 117 > 118 modification, is it not possible for a 3D CAD to 3D printer to produce the very small, slightly curved "wafer" to stick to the top of the 117 headcode box ?  If it were me I would build it up from a couple of slivers of plasticard and some judicious filing and sanding.  

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4 hours ago, chrisf said:

I think you'll find that some 117s were sent to Scotland.

 

Chris

Some went to Tyseley c1987 around the time we reopened the Moor Street to Snow Hill section, They could be seen on any Tyseley diagram, in fact B430 which was the GWR livery set and became T305 got as far as Norwich. I believe it was the T3xx sets which were later sent to Edinburgh.

Several 117 7xx sets in NSE livery were allocated to Bletchley, mainly working on the Bedford services. They also worked on the GOB line across North London and on at least one occasion subbing for the EMU service from Watford Junction to St Albans.

 

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+1 for a Class 118 version, preferably like this.

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/18843

 

Quote

A BRC&W suburban triple set at Dawlish on 6 July 1968.

 

I went to & from school on that. Happy memories of winter storms, when the DMUs kept running. The occassional wave would break over the train, with sea water coming through the door frame and soaking unwary passengers sitting on the left (seaward) side of the DMU.

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6 hours ago, chrisf said:

I think you'll find that some 117s were sent to Scotland.

 

They were, working Fife peak services in particular, although, being at the end of their lives, if after leaving Edinburgh they got beyond Haymarket they were doing well ! 

 

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7 hours ago, chrisf said:

I think you'll find that some 117s were sent to Scotland.

 

Chris


Yes but very late in their career. although I suppose you could model them in Green being taken from their Pressed Steel factory in Linwood  heading south . 

 

If you model transition or BR Blue  then a 116 would be much better for Scotland . When Kernow announced the MU it was 116/117/118  when Bachmann took it on themselves the 116 wasn’t mentioned . A bit of a missed opportunity I think . Generally the 116 was much more widespread than the 117 although I agree that the 117 had more livery options 

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3 hours ago, Covkid said:

Put really simply, Bachmann would have sold me at least three 3 car 116s had they chosen the 116 instead of the 117.

I'd have bought a set, may be two..............modelling South Wales valleys circa 1970-1972 means I have no place for a 117 or 118, but ample room for a 116.

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38 minutes ago, br2975 said:

I'd have bought a set, may be two..............modelling South Wales valleys circa 1970-1972 means I have no place for a 117 or 118, but ample room for a 116.

 

I am hoping there might still be a chance.  Guess we need to see what is around the corner

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6 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Regarding the 117 > 118 modification, is it not possible for a 3D CAD to 3D printer to produce the very small, slightly curved "wafer" to stick to the top of the 117 headcode box ?  If it were me I would build it up from a couple of slivers of plasticard and some judicious filing and sanding.  

 

Green-liveried Class 117 to 118 conversions have an advantage with this kind of modification - the changes are all contained within the white cab roof domes. This Hornby Class 121 was modified to Class 122 without a full repaint, only the domes needed repainting.

 

Not required for Class 117/118 of course but for the record......10thou plasticard headcode panels were pre-painted and attached over carefully pre-positioned headcode characters on black patches from a wagon transfer sheet with Glue n Glaze for neatness (the panels wouldn't stay completely flat and this set much faster than varnish would have done). The exhausts were fashioned from copper earth wire. Although some of the handrails remain incorrect (fortunately the end ones above the marker lights are not as prominent as those on the Lima 117) I can live with that. The '121' lining is actually correct for W55013, a late repaint into green just before blue arrived. I believe W55018 and at least one other were like this. It has been fitted with Lima Class 101 bogie steps but the windscreen wipers didn't sit correctly so the moulded ones remain.

This vehicle became a Class 131 parcels unit in Scotland and was still in green livery in September 1971.

 

WP_20210109_15_38_59_Pro.jpg.3eb2f2207d1465b9b3a6c6752ab9f43e.jpg

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On 07/01/2021 at 23:12, jools1959 said:

I don’t know how close the Class 116 is in body profile to a Class 117 apart from no roof mounted headcode box.  It would be nice to see Bachmann get extra mileage from this model.

The 116 has a different arrangement of windows in the section of the body immediately behind the driver's cab.  The first 'big' window on a 116 is smaller than the one on a 117.

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1 hour ago, bubbles2 said:

At what sort of dates did the 117 and 118s get fitted with corridor connections, were they still green liveried when this happened or had they been repainted blue by then? 


The Class 117’s started in 1965, were slow to fit them and probably not finished until early 70’s, whereas the Class 118’s were fitted with gangways starting in 1969 and finishing in 72/73.  I would have thought they would have been painted from green to blue at the same time as the gangways were fitted.

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14 hours ago, D6975 said:

The 116 has a different arrangement of windows in the section of the body immediately behind the driver's cab.  The first 'big' window on a 116 is smaller than the one on a 117.

Is it really smaller? Looking at pictures it looks the same size as all the other big windows. The old Lima 117 first large window was too big but this was a Lima error.

 

Mark

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48 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Was that because the programme depended on gangways becoming available from non-passenger coaching stock?


According to railcar.co.uk, some gangways were salvaged from Hawksworth coaches but the rest were built new to the same design.

 

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

 

I don't know about the start and finish dates, but there were plenty of 117s in BR blue without gangways.


I did say that the fitting on Class 117’s was slow to fit them so they could have gone through overhaul and painted blue without them being fitted.

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It is a bit wishlisty, but having thrown in with two 117s (which is one more than I need), I'd still chuck my hat in for multiple 116s where as I have no intention of topping up on 117s any time soon. The main tripping point is that trailer which would need tooling, otherwise its all the fun of the headcode and marker light variations, which Bachmann managed perfectly well with the class 108. I'd also want to see the guards handrails done as well, unlike Dapol who just did the class 122 arrangement for both bubble cars.

 

I really couldn't care less whether they did a TC or TS. Externally the window arrangement was the same, the physical differences revolved around the partitions of the internals with the first class divided into two compartments. One First compartment of 10 seats the second taking two bays and 18 seats (unless the published diagram B.R.555 is incorrect), versus 32 second class seats in three bays which take up the same 18'-11 3/4" long position.

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7 hours ago, Mark said:

Is it really smaller? Looking at pictures it looks the same size as all the other big windows. The old Lima 117 first large window was too big but this was a Lima error.

 

Mark

I'd forgotten this; it was one of the things i addressed in my cut'n'shut 116 from Lima 117 project back in the 80s.

 

1 hour ago, Zunnan said:

 

I really couldn't care less whether they did a TC or TS. Externally the window arrangement was the same, the physical differences revolved around the partitions of the internals with the first class divided into two compartments.

Careful, Zunnan.  The window spacing was idnetical on the TS and the TC, but the windows were not, the TC having small windows of the mk1 non gangwayed type for the non smoker first class, a single compartment, and these windows adjacent to the ends and the compartment divders.  On the subject of the dividiers, prior to the fitting of gangways on 116/7/8, the divider bulkheads were solid across the coach, with 3 rectangular windows let in above the back of the bench seats on either side of them, these in a dark wooden frame.  They were about 18" high and maybe 30" wide.  The divider partitions were completely replaced when gangways were fitted, as were the bench seats with the standard 2 or 3 seater type.  A door was fitted in the walkway, and larger aluminium framed windows fitted either side of the door. 

 

First class compartment were wood panelled on that side of the divider in both cases.  Prior to gangway fitting, 2nd class had a sort of light green with small swirlies pattern formica panelling, replaced post gangway fitting by a light gry formica.  2nd clas pre-gangway seats were red/grey stripe with red leather headrests, 1st class were mid grey with blue swirlies and navy blue headrests.  Post-gangway seconds were the two tone blue pattern with navy headrests, and first were dark grey with, IIRC, black headrests, but I'm more than happy to be corrected on the seat colours.

Edited by The Johnster
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14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd forgotten this; it was one of the things i addressed in my cut'n'shut 116 from Lima 117 project back in the 80s.

 

Careful, Zunnan.  The window spacing was idnetical on the TS and the TC, but the windows were not, the TC having small windows of the mk1 non gangwayed type for the non smoker first class, a single compartment, and these windows adjacent to the ends and the compartment divders.

 

You know, that was one thing I never noticed before. When riding those Tyseley hybrids I could tell the declassed TC from a TS, but I never noticed that the windows themselves were so slightly different.

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