The Spare Bedroom Layout

[Lacathedrale]

So I am moving home shortly, and find myself in a very similar conundrum in a potential new home that I have in my current - that is, until I get authorisation from the domestic authorities to build a dedicated railway shed outbuilding, the  only space that's really available for a layout is a spare bedroom of the fairly usual dimensions - about 9' by about 11' . Maybe the door will be in the corner, maybe in the middle of one of the walls - and there will no doubt be a window along one wall. This room will probably also have to pull double-duty as an office and maybe host a work table.

 

It's a more european/american-style to build something integrated into a space rather than baseboards which can be carted to exhibitions or between rooms - but this feels like a scenario which has some solid known-good principles, if not outright answers.

 

I'd be interested to see what we've got!

 

[30368]

39 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

So I am moving home shortly, and find myself in a very similar conundrum in a potential new home that I have in my current - that is, until I get authorisation from the domestic authorities to build a dedicated railway shed outbuilding, the  only space that's really available for a layout is a spare bedroom

 

Good luck with the move William. Its a bit tricky as you probably know taking some time to a) sell house/select house b)select house/sell house (we usually go for option a) c)Move house d) some time after c) start building layout.

 

I ended up with a fairly large spare bedroom (5m x5m) but like you have to fit in an office and work bench.

 

Making some progress but, understandably, new home making takes most time...

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

[Nearholmer]

9ft x 11ft similar to the size of our study-overspill bedroom, which also serves as my cosy model-making zone. With a desk, single-bed, and a run of bookshelves, alomg the top of which I have a "shunting plank", it feels like a reasonably-sized space. The desk doubles as bench, by use of a "work-tray", which simply lifts on and off, with all the small tools and a mini-vice in-situ.

 

If I were to add a "full layout" into this room, my experience, based on a previous, smaller study (no  bed in that one) where I did do that, is that I would be immensely careful not to allow it to make the room feel cramped/claustrophobic. In short, I would tightly limit the railway, to avoid it interfering badly with the other functions ........ my mind doesn't work properly unless a room feels reasonably spacious, airy, brightly-lit, and neat.

 

You work in 2mm/ft don't you? in which case I don't think meeting the brief would be too challenging (my less than successful attempt was in 16mm/dt, albeit very tiny 'industrial' prototypes). I can imagine something c4ft 6in above floor level, with a 'wide' area (16ins?) for a station or the like on top of book-shelves, continuing as a very narrow shelf (4in?) around the room, with removable sections spanning the door  and window (having stuff across the windows doesn't help a feeling of spaciousness). If you are going to live in the house for a long while, I think it would be worth "fairing" the underside of the shelf and painting it the same colour as the wall, to help it disappear.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Nearholmer

[DCB]

Mine was 5ft above floor level.   That was to the underside of the "Lift out" section over the doorway, the door was in the corner so the lift out could stay in while I entered and left (a rehung outward opening door would give the same effect.) The room was 10ft X 9ft approx

Operating was standing up, working on it often on the bottom or second rung of a step ladder, but I could work easily at an ordinary domestic desk under the widest part of the baseboard.

It was OO gauge, sort of Midlands Coal mining area  branch,  Double track, local passenger and goods trains and reguar coal and empties reversing and running down t'colliery.  It was dismantled when my son was about to be born, apparently he needed a bed room, 25 years ago so few photos.  But it worked, it was sort of a continuous run  but half was two level with a FY under a terminus with a continuous run link for running in and testing locos. 

I had the FY over some filing cabinets

Most of the layout was on narrow baseboards, about 18" max and I made every effort to keep baseboards thin, 2X1 framing but on its side in places and the minimum "Lip" on the baseboard edge. A lot was supported by timbers across the corners of the room to minimise uprights. It was a nice layout but maybe I should have stuck with one level.  But essentially it had almost no impact on the use of the room as an office or junk store.   See pic of framing.

Edited January 8, 2021 by DavidCBroad

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I’m intrigued by the description of a room with measurements (9’ x 11’) where the door position is - at the same time - still a variable.  I can’t work out if that means a new home and layout room has been chosen, so the measurements are fixed, or if it’s still to be decided, in which case we’re more at concept stage - where everything is up for grabs?  
 

Either way, my first thought is whether the door to said room can be hung outwards rather than inwards?  I’ve seen that one change transform a small room into a decent layout space, but it may be something to discuss before moving?
 

Just a thought, Keith.

[Lacathedrale]

Good morning gents - I do apologise @Keith Addenbrooke, I hit 'submit' before I had really finished my first post. I was hoping to spark a general discussion about spare room layouts, rather than my SPECIFIC notional spare room. It seems that a spare bedroom generally isn't a large one although @30368 clearly proves that rule. In my first home the 'spare' room was 7' x 11', in my current it's 10'6" x 8" and in the home I'm (currently) hoping to buy, it's either 10' x 9' or 13' x 10' - each with doors and windows in different places, so I figured that splitting the difference for an average spare room as the point of divergence for discussion would be most productive.

 

I say 'spare bedroom' as opposed to 'railway room' because I think as @Nearholmer has eluded to - while much imposition is tolerated by the fairer sex, it may be a bit much to have both a dedicated workshop, dedicated railway room AND a dedicated home office - so the extra duty does incur some restrictions, namely:

 

1. If a continuous run, it needs a llft or gate section rather than a stoop or duck-under.
2. As mentioned, it needs to be relatively tight to the walls and high enough up that a desk/monitor can be placed underneath without undue strife (i.e. @DavidCBroad's recommendation)
3. The permanent projection of wide peninsula into the roomis a no-no (I did this in aforementioned 7' x 11' room and it worked wonderfully for increasing the run, but made the room essentially unusable)
4. All fit and finish needs to be of a high level with cabinetry and fascias rather than trailing wires and exposed bulbs.

 

This isn't a perfect example as it very much does encroach onto the usable space of the room, but was in line with what I have discussed above in terms of fit and finish:

 

I feel like a home office layout (particularly in N/2mm)  where one can traverse the walls ideally suits a system-type layout of discrete layout design elements linked by more narrow plain track sections. These elements could be effectively self-contained micro-layouts - a branch junction, a large terminus, a small station with a rail-served adjacent business, a goods yard, etc.  - or a functional area such as a helix entrance or fiddle-yard.

 

Each long wall could consist of two such elements, and each short wall one of them.

 

In 00/H0 the principle is more challenging because the minimum radius brings the corner curves significantly out into the room - by the time you have factored in a backscene, fascia and some clearance on the inside of even an 18" radius curve you are looking at a significant projection into the room - and if a wall is only 10' long, that means half of the wall space is covered over by large 90 degree turns.  Any thoughts on that?

 

In an ideal world these 90 degree curves would be either self contained non-scenic or scenic-break boards (large buildings, etc.)  but they could also form an overflow from an adjacent element (such as sidings from a single ended yard or factory).

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

Here's what I mean by a system layout - the bare bones is a continuous run around the walls of the room. One could maybe include a continuous gradient throughout the layout to provide a "dogbone" set of stacked reverse curves, or maybe a helix to a lower level.

 

Layout elements can be 'slotted' into the design as they become ready of various sizes- small, small + overflowing onto a corner, or large:

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi William, no need to apologise - it’s all part of the discussion.  Whatever sized room you have it will always seem that bit too small of course, the doors / windows won’t quite be in the right place (especially for any published plans to fit), or there will be some other constraint - the ‘pillar’ intruding into the corner of your present home office, that featured in discussions last year, is a very good example of course.

 

At the same time however, there are ingenious and workable solutions to every problem, as I found with my own planning last year: a potentially unworkable space ended up giving me several attractive layout options, thanks to help from the good people of this Forum.

 

I think the point about alternatives for the door is still generally applicable - but this depends on what is outside the room.

 

As you note in the post just above the diagrams, I’d agree with the argument that curves are the biggest challenge.  What I’ve found most helpful is to see curves, not just as joins between the interesting / action bits on the straight sides, but rather as a key part of the design, if that makes sense (eg: extend the station onto a curve).  The time spent juggling station throats and radii pays off.  This would give a different solution to the block diagram just posted if space is even tighter.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke
(posts crossed)

[Lacathedrale]

@Keith Addenbrooke I get what you mean - in my diagram I do suggest that an element can overlap a curve also. Those back corners could provide fertile ground for coal mines, foundries, or a big pre-group goods warehouse where stub ended tracks lead, suitably masked to represent a larger facility. Maybe it is worth considering each corner to be part of an adjacent straight section?

 

It would be great if each element could be built and operated independently (even in a limited fashion) as to provide satisfaction and a sense of completion ahead of a wider 'room' project, as well..

 

I am strongly considering a move from 2mmFS to Euro N/TT or even Japanese N to permit a system-type layout that is achievable in my lifetime, and so radii which are much less obtrusive for corners and return curves are possible. It's a different kind of model railways, far away from the kinds of layouts I adore in MRJ - but I think I am at a stage where I want to voluntarily engage in hand-laying track and building stock from scratch rather than it being mandated. Coarser standards do also mean much tigher radii for non-visbile curves, so things like helices and dogbone return loops are feasible.

 

One thing I like about a dogbone style layout is that fiddle tracks can be integrated into the reverse loops, so a pickup goods can arrive from the south loop, shunting  wagons , maybe setting out branch traffic at the junction goods yard/etc. and picking up northbound wagons and continue to the 'north' loop. Other things can happen, and then lo and behold - a southbound goods train arrives from the north loop at a later point and can shunt traffic in the other direction.  This is to say nothing of passenger services from either direction or industrial or branch connections.
 

A system-type layout permits signalman, fireman/engineer and shunting functions for multiple operators - but could also be linked to a computer control system and allow the 'rules' of train priority, direction, etc. to take effect and let trains circulate the room while working (either real, or modelling!)

Edited January 9, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Harlequin]

I don't think the idea of separate scenic elements linked by plain track stacks up in this size of room.

 

Even in 2mm the size of the scenic sections will make it very difficult to fit interesting track plans into them, requiring the sort of compression that drives people crazy in 4mm scale! Furthermore, it results in awkward internal and external corners in the baseboards that waste space and are difficult to disguise scenically.

 

Edit: Dividing the layout up into different sized sections with joining pieces also flies in the face of trying to make a neat domestic setup. For that you want clean, consistent runs of similar looking fittings.

 

And I don't think corner curves necessarily intrude much into the central space, even at decent OO radii. Here's a 2ft radius curve joining tracks placed centrally on modest-width 18in boards:

A tiny diagonal fillet would help to move the front of the scene away from the curve without significantly affecting the room space and, of course, it's often possible to move the track further back.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Nearholmer]

It all depends hugely on how wide a shelf you are comfortable having round the room at not far below eye-height when standing, or above eye-height when you are sitting at the desk.

 

Personally, I wouldn’t be comfortable with anything much more than the minimum needed to accommodate double-track in N, or single track in 0 or 00 except over a book-case. I would find sitting, trying to work, in a room with an 18” wide shelf hovering around the upper periphery of my vision very oppressive - certainly did when I tried it, and I dismantled it pretty swiftly!

[Chimer]

Hi William

 

I don't think you commented on, so don't know if you saw, this thread of mine, https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159903-variations-on-a-couple-of-themes-by-lots-of-you/, which is an 00 plan for a room just a big bigger than your projected average, and sort of uses your idea of linking scenic areas (just two in this case).  It is very definitely a dedicated railway room, but deliberately avoids bridging the doorway and duck-unders, except for emergency access to one corner.  Didn't meet with universal acclamation but does perhaps show unconventional approaches are possible.  And it's got a Minories-style terminus which I think you approve of .....

 

Cheers, Chris

 

[woodenhead]

When I moved to our current house I managed to secure the downstairs 4th bedroom/study as my railway room - but I had the railway floating on shelving around two sides of the room for a rather nice N gauge layout - I ended up with space for 16 decent length trains in a long fiddleyard with each track accomodating several trains and the running lines at the front.  I'll admit I overcooked the depth of the railway to ease out the curves and really the layout was precarious - but the lack of legs meant lots of under railway books/university stuff storage and the shelving above for other house house stuff plus space for train bits and bobs.  Then I added a desk for homeworking and it became an office as well as railway room and household dumping ground.  I then decided that I couldnt see N gauge any more and went to OO - which was a simple end to end in the same space, it too grew in depth but I added a couple of legs this time.

 

It worked fine for several years till Son #1 left home and I took over his room in 2019.  Now I have more space but the room isn't a box, it is oddly shaped, I could have filled the room with railway but I still need an office and whilst I did think about having the railway over the desk a little I did quickly realise it would become rather overbearing on the room so I've accepted that a N gauge end to end by my side and behind me doesn't encroach on my working space, still allows easy access to the room and it doesn't dominate.  There is also thought that by leaving space I can also build a small OO layout to run tank engines on.

 

I guess my thinking on the spare room is that if it is just a railway room it can be filled with railway as that is it's only purpose, but if it is dual purpose then you have to cut back expectations and be more modest with the baseboards otherwise it will be a stressful experience.

[ITG]

My spare room is a mere 11’ 6” x 6’ 6” (approx 3.5m x 2m). On my return to railway modelling a couple of years back, I tried to fit in a layout which filled 2/3 of that space, approx 2m x 2m, including a small access hole in the centre. In the remaining ‘spare’ space, I managed to find a minuscule desk which fitted, as well as a printer. Storage cupboards fitted under the layout board. Should also say that our house is an unusual layout, with 2 bedrooms upstairs and 2 downstairs. This spare room was one of the downstairs ones, which I preferred from an accessibility angle.

 

Result - I found out the hard way that trying to fit both railway and office into too small a space meant that neither worked as intended. Railway was overcrowded with track, lots of crawling about looking for paperwork, and a desk that was always untidy.

Solution - hey, hang on, I’m now retired - do I really need an office? Or shall I sit in the lounge with a laptop on my knee when I need it? The layout now occupies the entire room, 2’ wide board around the parameter, with diagonal board across opening door. Still underboard storage but much easier to access. That said, still too much track!

 

I did Initially consider an upstairs spare room alternative, although I have to say, I was the only person in the household doing that considering ....... if you know what I mean. Actually, in any case, the fact that it had two inbuilt wardrobes on different walls, and two low windows on those same walls, plus the entrance door, probably made the usable space less than the downstairs option.

[Lacathedrale]

My own eye-height layout-room experiment was with 14" boards at 54" from the floor. The skyboards were 14" tall with an upper fascia/screen for hiding the flourescent tubes I used, and the front/bottom fascias were 4" deep too, so it made a very substantial visual intrusioin into what was already a fairly small space.  Any working underneath them (as in, monitor and keyboard work) quite oppressive even after the peninsula and half the layout was removed.

 

@Harlequin - that's a very valid point - but if we are talking about 18" deep boards that isn't really sustainable in a dual purpose spare bedroom - unless that's along two walls with your spindly bridge-connecting-continuous-loop is around the other two - essentially writing off that space as a casualty of the bedroom railway, rather than attempting to co-habit it.

 

In N I would assume a 12" radius non-scenic curve minimum - that gives 7' along a short wall and 9' along a long wall - surelly enough for 'interesting track plans' ?

 

I am investigating the european solution to this problem - which just appears to be a very different approach based on track diagram realism twisted and contorted into sharp radii and multiple levels to fit a given space...

[woodenhead]

@Lacathedrale always remember less is more - perhaps rather than trying to build something epic build something more in line with the space available that also lets you build your track and stock which as you indicate is your preference.  Building a big European layout on multiple levels might achieve one goal but at the same time as you found when you mixed your own built stock with RTR you weren't satisfied with the overall result.

[Harlequin]

The 18in boards were just to illustrate that corner curves aren't necessarily a problem. In reality of course, you'd vary the width to suit the room and its other functions.

 

You're right that min radius 12in curves in 2mm scale would give you more width for the scenic sections than I had imagined - I was looking at the Size 1 and Size 2 layout elements in your drawing. But you'd get even more length by not dividing the layout up and using the space around the corner curves for scenics.

 

I'm sure the feeling of oppression of a high-level, wall-mounted layout can be designed out by matching layout width to the functions of the room below and the use of under unit lighting.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

The solution would seem to very much depend on what you're trying to create. For me, having one side with an 18" wide, full length board housing all the action, and then the rest of the room at absolute minimum width (4" for single track, 6" for double) would be the answer. As someone who doesn't really see lots of storage sidings as something that improves my enjoyment, it wouldn't really be much of a compromise.

 

But I'd be modelling an American short line operation, on the "Mixed Train Daily" principle. Might not be much help for anyone else...

[Keith Addenbrooke]

17 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I'm sure the feeling of oppression of a high-level, wall-mounted layout can be designed out by matching layout width to the functions of the room below and the use of under unit lighting.

 

Another ‘trick’ perhaps might also be to paint the fascia of the layout / shelves the same colour as the walls of the room (particularly if they’re a lighter or pastel shade) to help them blend in?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

16 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The solution would seem to very much depend on what you're trying to create. For me, having one side with an 18" wide, full length board housing all the action, and then the rest of the room at absolute minimum width (4" for single track, 6" for double) would be the answer. As someone who doesn't really see lots of storage sidings as something that improves my enjoyment, it wouldn't really be much of a compromise.

 

But I'd be modelling an American short line operation, on the "Mixed Train Daily" principle. Might not be much help for anyone else...

I agree that would work with an American hat on, but maybe not a UK one - the key point being that I’d only expect to run one train a day on an HO Switching Shortline layout - the operating fun comes from the greater number of rail-served industries, not the variety of trains.  For a UK outline layout, I’d suggest a four-track Fiddle Yard for a selection of trains (even if many branchlines didn’t see that many, it is how they are often modelled).

 

I’m not an expert on European (or Japanese) modelling, but I think the idea of European TT has a lot going for it - the practical issue would be sourcing rolling stock under the new import rules, but it could be the ideal size.  Narrow gauge would be another option with tighter curves, but doesn’t appear on the list of ideas mentioned for this possible project.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[KingEdwardII]

Attached is my OO layout plan - fitted into an Attic bedroom left free when the children moved out to their own homes. The room is an "L" shape and I have a space of 3.6 x 4.0 metre to use. The left hand and top of the diagram are under sloping ceilings so that the height of the baseboards is deliberately low at around 830mm and I operate sitting down in a chair on castors that I propel around the central well. I have a worktable that can be slid underneath the baseboards in one of a couple of locations.

 

I decided on a roundy-roundy design with one station on the right hand side (platforms etc. not drawn in) and then a branch line with a terminus station on the left.  The door is in the middle of the bottom of the diagram and I have a removable section / duckunder to get into the central well. Lots of track and not so much space for scenery!

 

Mike.

[bmthtrains - David]

I'm having the same thoughts at the moment as once I’ve moved I’ll have space for a layout in one of the spare bedrooms. This needs to have space for a sofa bed for when guests stay (remember when people did that?), so I’m caught between having the layout along one wall (this is N gauge), or do more of a temporary exhibition-type set up where multiple boards go across the room on trestles but get stored in a cupboard when the bed needs to be down.

 

My problem with having it permanently up along one wall is reaching behind to the storage yard, so possibly having it on wheels to pull out and duck under when being used is an option I’m considering.

 

David

[mdvle]

22 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

This room will probably also have to pull double-duty as an office and maybe host a work table.

 

So, in our new world, what does an office mean - is it to do the occasional work from home, home finances, or is it the now much more common 40+ hours a week because you can't go in to a proper business office?

 

If it is the full time office then I would be designing the office first, and once I have figured out what I need for the office - in terms of desk/shelves/tables/chairs/light/window access - then I would (likely with some regret) decide on what space was left for a layout and the likely significant concessions to the dreams.

 

There is no point filling as much space as possible with layout if in turns your workday a gloomy claustrophobic dread - given it is the major point of the space you need to make it as welcoming for that as possible so you don't create a situation where you hate the layout for the negative impacts it has on your mental well being while working.

 

Of course, it it is only occasionally an office then the priority of room design can change.

[Lacathedrale]

20 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Another ‘trick’ perhaps might also be to paint the fascia of the layout / shelves the same colour as the walls of the room (particularly if they’re a lighter or pastel shade) to help them blend in?

 

I'm not sure that really works - it sounds like it should, but having another look at Stummiforum produces this - masked as well as you can, but still very obvious...

 

https://5is57vtuioa6sb73mgll5fhnhi--www-stummiforum-de.translate.goog/viewtopic.php?p=2142576&sid=ee80dc2b841511d4ddb6dd4a93531486#p2142576

 

 

 

21 hours ago, woodenhead said:

@Lacathedrale always remember less is more - perhaps rather than trying to build something epic build something more in line with the space available that also lets you build your track and stock which as you indicate is your preference.  Building a big European layout on multiple levels might achieve one goal but at the same time as you found when you mixed your own built stock with RTR you weren't satisfied with the overall result.

 

You're quite right that keeping the minimum-kernel size as small as possible is a great idea. However, one of the major considerations of my 00 Holborn Viaduct layout was that I wanted trains to GO SOMEWHERE - rather than just shuttle back and forth along 18" of track between a platform and a fiddle yard.

 

I was thinking that with an around-the-walls system-layout, I could build my first element on the bench a traditional FY to Terminus exhibition-type layout, to keep the scope small. Keeping the wider context of the system in mind,  it could slot into a space on this nascent around-the-walls layout, initially with  @Zomboid's skinny rail connections giving some distance of run. I could then plan and build the next element, removing the temporary continuous run from that 'slot', and adding in the full-fat ones as time goes on.

 

@Harlequin maybe I am misrepresenting this 'elements connected by plain track' thing - I am not envisioning three or four rectangular, self-contained cameo layouts connected by pieces of set track, but rather a single continuous layout that starts with one section, and grows iteratively - consisting of discrete elements connected by plain track.

 

@mdvle I've been working remotely from a 7' x 10' office which is essentially empty apart from an old bankers desk, a guitar amplifier and an office chair. I think mocking something up with polystyrene in the space might be useful? But I think the main ask is that around the desk area any model railway is as out of the way as possible, i.e. narrow, wall-coloured and set way back and above the desk (i.e. like a thin bookshelf rather than a large layout).

 

 

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

I'm not sure that really works - it sounds like it should, but having another look at Stummiforum produces this - masked as well as you can, but still very obvious...

 

https://5is57vtuioa6sb73mgll5fhnhi--www-stummiforum-de.translate.goog/viewtopic.php?p=2142576&sid=ee80dc2b841511d4ddb6dd4a93531486#p2142576

 

 

 

 

 

Fair point, and it does rather look like I’d bump my head every time I sat on (or got up from) the sofa. I think I’d still be inclined to go for a matching colour scheme - with a light colour scheme, based on experience that makes rooms look / feel larger with lighter colours than darker ones.  Looks like a very nice layout in the pictures, incidentally.