The Spare Bedroom Layout

[Keith Addenbrooke]

44 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Having mulled the ideas over in my head I've come to some fairly obvious conclusions:

1. With my primary interaction with the hobby at the moment being large scale live steam (at least with that intention), I've gone right off finescale for myself (though hopefully I can help out others)
2. The space is just too small for 10mm/7mm/3-16ths/etc.
3. A stylised 4mm layout may just about be feasible - i.e. shorter train lengths.
4. TT is off the cards unless it's euro RTR
5. N is most feasible for a layout - but probably least appealing. Neither the fineness of 2mmFS nor the heft of any of the larger scales.

Much food for thought here!

All makes good sense.  As someone else who’s juggled various interests, experience taught me not to be too hasty in writing something off I’d lost interest in for a moment - in case all I needed was a break and enthusiasm was going to return.  Noting points 1. and 5.  above, but also looking at your Hennock thread, I just wonder if it’s worth setting it up in the space when you get there / if it’s moving with you and while you have fun with large scale live steam.

 

It will reserve the space as a layout space, give you a chance to see what a small layout actually looks like in the space, and in good time, who knows...

 

Just a thought, Keith.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Donw]

My thoughts are that large scale live steam can be a long term project and winter evenings going out to a cold workshop may not appeal something smaller inside would be good I think. With the window in the long side it does make the large scales rater cramped. A small light railway terminus to cassettes  in 0 could be done but may not appeal.  4mm would allow something more but still a BLT. You say finescale has lost some appeal but I wonder if N using Finetrax might be a suitable compromise yes you would have to build track from kits but you have shown you can build track what you wouldn't need to do is rewheel some of those lovely locos now available in N. Sharp curves could be scenically disguished with proper looking track  perhaps that might do.

 

Don

[Lacathedrale]

Good points - I don't think I've gone off track laying, I very much enjoy that - but after long conversation with @justin1985 I've come to realise that there is a 'pick two' out of the following:

 

1) finescale standards

2) timely construction

3) size of layout

 

So Finetrax N would work very well in that all the non-scenic items could be Peco RTR and only the visible sections hand laid. Certainly the minimum radius would help for minimising the impact of the 90 degree bend in the corner of the L.

 

The short leg of the L could play host to one of the many terminii I have designed.

 

 

The original Caterham station on the single line branch, in 7' x 1'  in Finetracks N.

 

Holborn Viaduct (more or less) as built in 1874 in 2mmFS

 

However, both of these plans have the drawback that they essentially mandate pre-grouping locomotives and stock - which is very much up my street - but looking at the 'choose two' above, I just can't scratchbuild every bloody piece of stock and track I might need for these layouts and get it done in a reasonable amount of time. I think my second love, that of the railways of my childhood (i.e. late 80's through to 00) makes more sense - 33's, 73's, 4CEPs, Networkers, PGA stone trains, etc. are all available in RTR (or near enough).

 

I return back to the specific criteria of what I want to model (as opposed to the discussion about scale and gauge) -

• I'm not willing to sacrifice on scope - the layout MUST contain at least a (sub?) urban passenger terminus
• Working signals, with a provision for mechanical interlocking
• An authentic track plan (if not in geometry)
• Provide operational and not just aesthetic entertainment for me - this puts the 1980's era under some question as it precludes a good deal of terminus operation.

Some more food for thought, anyway...

Edited April 22, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Donw]

I presume the SECR  Class C might be acceptable for Caterham and the coaches would be  for Caterham but nothing much else. I would think the stock for Caterham would be much less than for Holborn. You are obviously too young to remember the SR station at Reading when I was a boy in the 50s/60s there was the Electrics to Waterloo but also steam on the SE&CR line to Redhill/Reigate mostly black moguls was what I saw.

If you want SR suburban layouts it is probably going to be some scratch building as they were probably all electrified quite early. Too early for a lot of the RTR SR stuff. 

You could look to ther railways north of the river. Obviously the GWR is probably the best covered. I could be tempted to do a Brent inspired branch adding a passenger service ( closed quite early on) and probably having a lot of the docks offscene. I think it would be a case of seeing what combinations of locos there are available to see what could be practical.

You will not I have ignored the 80s. I did travel for Weston Super Mud to Bristol and return for work  most trains were HSTs but we were blessed with a 5 coach 45 hauled train most evenings (unless they replaced it with a two car set or one occasion a single car which was real fun!)  However that reversed at Taunton  otherwise very boring operationally.

 

Don

[Lacathedrale]

Correct, I know Gareth Collier (?) of this parish has built a number of LCDR/SER/SECR locos that would be perfect for the Caterham branch. In some ways that branch is ideal for scratchbuilders because all sorts of pensioned-off motive power ended up there way up until the end of freight in '63ish. That does make it rather a challenging prospect for 2mm/N because of just how diminutive the 1870's era stock would be, that would have worked the branch.

 

It's alot easier in Gauge 3...

 

SECR D-class in Gauge 3, built from scaled up G1MRA "Dee" plans

[Donw]

8 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Correct, I know Gareth Collier (?) of this parish has built a number of LCDR/SER/SECR locos that would be perfect for the Caterham branch. In some ways that branch is ideal for scratchbuilders because all sorts of pensioned-off motive power ended up there way up until the end of freight in '63ish. That does make it rather a challenging prospect for 2mm/N because of just how diminutive the 1870's era stock would be, that would have worked the branch.

 

It's alot easier in Gauge 3...

 

SECR D-class in Gauge 3, built from scaled up G1MRA "Dee" plans

 

It would be easier until you try to fit something into a small room. Lovely looking loco.

 

Don

 

[Lacathedrale]

Scoping out a system-type layout in this space, here is CJF's 1981 Minories superimposed into the space - if another narrow terminus could be afforded at the right hand side (nominally here as 'Blackfriars'), it would be a complete system!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Donw]

I do like that plan. Lots of operating potential.

 

Don

[Chimer]

I'm guessing "Ewer St" is a goods yard?  If so, "Blackfriars" as another modelled passenger terminus gives nowhere for freights to go, whereas a boring fiddle yard .......

[Lacathedrale]

You are absolutely right, Chimer - upon revisiting Ewer St. is effectively just a glorified Inglenook. Taking a huge leaf out of the Paddington to Seagood book, I've formulated a plan in the same vein but in a slightly different space. This is depicted as OO in 10'6" x 21" - but is in fact Gauge 1 in 50' x 100' in disguise (i.e. scaled down proportionally) for ease of a common language:

 

 

This is very much at the sketch stage and all names and track layouts are notional placeholders.

• Caterham is the 1896 station as previously discussed
• Central Croydon is a fairly unabashed copy of Seagood from the aforementioned book, albeit with a double track connection.
• Purley is provides another bay, goods siding and carriage siding, and I'm thinking of it as a passing-terminus - trains are split and combined, motive power swapped, etc.
• Max train length is four Mk1's or five 45' bogie coaches and a 4-6-0.

 

I like the idea of building the plan (in N or G1!) iteratively adding cost, time and operational complexity over the course of development rather than upfront. In this example, the continuous run could be built first (handily, at the back of the garden to get a feel for the practicalities and impact on domestic bliss). Then, each station could be grafted onto the trunk in sequence.

 

Operationally I think the layout is a little more on the money than the previous - In this case there are a few separate interests satisfied:

• Expresses depart the city end as a Down and lope around the continuous run before returning as an Up
• Fast goods would drop cuts of wagons at Purley and similarly circambulate.
• The branch can operate independently (i.e. as a shuttle to the bay at Purley,) or integrated through to Croydon.
• Shunters can go hog wild at both termini.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Lacathedrale

[Donw]

G1 in the garden is a very different beast. Would it be electric or live steam. Radio controlled live steam could be great fun but would you get the most out of the opertions of a complex layout?

 

Don

[Lacathedrale]

Yes, it definitely is - any further real-world progress in that vein will have to sit behind visiting some local get togethers and getting some of my own live steam engines (stationary or otherwise) complete.

 

The idea behind planning the G1 space was to see whether a garden railway WOULD be feasible. As you've said it's fairly complex at its apex, but initially would be much simpler and could slowly develop over time.

 

Another option was Gauge 3. Models in G3/2.5" Gauge are just over the 'Model Engineering' side of the fence which is something I'm quite interested in at the moment, as opposed to buying commercial, off-the-shelf models - which seems very prevalent in Gauge 1. A Gauge 3 railway is no joke at all - a 4-6-0 and a few coaches could easily be over twelve feet long just on its own!

 

Here is a G3 plan using the same station design (albeit as a through station rather than a terminus) and a simple island station opposite - the equivalent space in 00 is 15' x 7'6":

 

Either way, for large scale I am not interested in buying my way into things - it's all about building and that has to be proven first as well as those visits to other lines.

[Donw]

MY live steamers are 16mm ones. I have had the pleasure of seeing top quality 0 steam locos in action. From my experience most people running live steamers are not intersted in running a proper train service. They seem more interested in concentrating on the loco. This applies whether 0,1 or 3 gauge. Perhaps it is just when there are visitors.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

On 22/04/2021 at 12:38, Donw said:

I presume the SECR  Class C might be acceptable for Caterham and the coaches would be  for Caterham but nothing much else. I would think the stock for Caterham would be much less than for Holborn. You are obviously too young to remember the SR station at Reading when I was a boy in the 50s/60s there was the Electrics to Waterloo but also steam on the SE&CR line to Redhill/Reigate mostly black moguls was what I saw.

If you want SR suburban layouts it is probably going to be some scratch building as they were probably all electrified quite early. Too early for a lot of the RTR SR stuff. 

You could look to ther railways north of the river. Obviously the GWR is probably the best covered. I could be tempted to do a Brent inspired branch adding a passenger service ( closed quite early on) and probably having a lot of the docks offscene. I think it would be a case of seeing what combinations of locos there are available to see what could be practical.

You will not I have ignored the 80s. I did travel for Weston Super Mud to Bristol and return for work  most trains were HSTs but we were blessed with a 5 coach 45 hauled train most evenings (unless they replaced it with a two car set or one occasion a single car which was real fun!)  However that reversed at Taunton  otherwise very boring operationally.

 

Don

As an aside, sorry.  Don if you are old enough to remember Reading South in the late 1950s you are old enough to remember the few remaining older SE&CR 4-4-0s that habituated Reading South shed although you got the best view of them from the GW main line.  However I really don't know what work they did but I have often wondered if one worked down on the London Bridge - Reading newspaper train as i never saw them on a train during the day.

 

For southern modellers reading south would make an excellent subject with the mix as you have described plus a variety of motive power over the years.

[Donw]

11 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As an aside, sorry.  Don if you are old enough to remember Reading South in the late 1950s you are old enough to remember the few remaining older SE&CR 4-4-0s that habituated Reading South shed although you got the best view of them from the GW main line.  However I really don't know what work they did but I have often wondered if one worked down on the London Bridge - Reading newspaper train as i never saw them on a train during the day.

 

For southern modellers reading south would make an excellent subject with the mix as you have described plus a variety of motive power over the years.

 

Thanks for the info Mike.  With hindsight I should have paid more attention to the SR station instead of being so focussed on the GWR.  Hope you are well. We should have met at Staplegrove last weekend had things been differerent.

 

Don

[Metropolitan H]

Surely you should be referring to Reading "Southern"? - I thought the Central Goods station was known as Reading South?

 

Although living in Bracknell from 1955 till circa 1972 and a frequent traveller to Reading by train, I'm still too young to remeber seeing the ex SECR 4-4-0s - but I do remember the "Huntley and Palmer" Fireless locos and the interesting visitors for Ascot races specials.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Donw]

1 hour ago, Metropolitan H said:

Surely you should be referring to Reading "Southern"? - I thought the Central Goods station was known as Reading South?

 

Although living in Bracknell from 1955 till circa 1972 and a frequent traveller to Reading by train, I'm still too young to remeber seeing the ex SECR 4-4-0s - but I do remember the "Huntley and Palmer" Fireless locos and the interesting visitors for Ascot races specials.

 

Regards

Chris H

 

It was original just called Reading I believe but when I first new it it was called Reading South and I assume Mike would have known it as that. It was renamed Reading Southern in 1961 I think. Reading was odd in that there were also SR trains which didn't go into the SR station but having passed through the GWR Reading South from Basinstoke  terminated in the bay at the western end of platform 4 close to Tudor road. When I joined Somerset Railway Modellers one of the club members used to be a driver on that service.

Don 

[Metropolitan H]

7 hours ago, Donw said:

 

It was original just called Reading I believe but when I first new it it was called Reading South and I assume Mike would have known it as that. It was renamed Reading Southern in 1961 I think. Reading was odd in that there were also SR trains which didn't go into the SR station but having passed through the GWR Reading South from Basinstoke  terminated in the bay at the western end of platform 4 close to Tudor road. When I joined Somerset Railway Modellers one of the club members used to be a driver on that service.

Don 

Don,

 

Many thanks for the correction. I will have to claim faulty memory  - I was only just 11 in summer 1961.

 

Regarding the Southern trains from Basingstoke and beyond, the local services were originally GWR from their terminal station at Basingstoke - over GWR metals. But I am sure I remember those services as later being run with SR Diesel units? I also remember visiting EAMES in Tudor Road with Father.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Zomboid]

Responsibility for the Basingstoke to Reading local service seems to have flipped back and forth. Immediately prior to the 165s taking over it was run by southern DEMUs, and for a time some of the services went beyond Basingstoke to Salisbury (and possibly Portsmouth?). I think, though I'm not certain, that prior to that it was WR DMMUs running similar services.

 

The GWR terminus at Basingstoke went pretty early on, closing on 1/1/1932 according to wikipedia.

[Donw]

Gordon was a SR driver. He drove O2s I think into Reading.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to stay OT but let's try to round off Reading.  The GWR had two passenger stations - Reading General on the main Bristol etc route (I'm not sure when the suffix 'General' was added - the only pre 1948 public timetables I have are all pre-war and it wasn't in use then but it was in use in 1952.  it ceased to be used when the South station was closed AFAIK).  The GWR's other station was Reading West - the name it carried since opening and still does - and it was at one time the calling point for cross-country trains to/from the SR which avoided the General by using the West (aka Oxford Road) Curve; Wiki notes it as opening in 1906 but I haven't checked any other sources.

 

The SR passenger station was, as already mentioned, a very modellable terminus and was adjacent to the main GWR station - it acquired a suffix - as far as I can trace - after nationalisation.

 

The GWR had three goods stations   The main (Low Level) goods depot on the Up side east of General station and almost opposite the SR loco shed on the opposite side of the GWR main line embankment.  Vastern Road yard was immediately north of the General station and reached by two connecting lines - either from a connection immediately east of the station  down a steep gradient or from the main goods depot via a level crossing (no gates, just Flagmen) across Vastern Road - that went in the 1960s.  The other GWR goods depot was Reading Central reached by a goods only single track branch line from Southcote Jcn (where the Newbury and Basingstoke lines split).  The only one I ever worked at was the main goods depot.

 

The SR also had a goods depot some way to the east of its passenger station and it remained open until the 1960s.  Reading was unusual that its local goods collection and deliveries were not handled by the railway but were instead moved in the vehicles of the contractor C&G Ayres - who had green liveried Scammells (which went into BR ownership when they took over the goods C&D work and Ayres'  motor drivers also then became BR employees).

 

There were at one time three different connections between the GWR and SR.  The siding between the east end of General station upside down a steep incline and then under the GW mainlines to connect with the SR at Reading Jcn signal box.  This connection was reinstated and considerably upgraded as part of the most recent Reading station expansion and is now regularly used by passenger trains going to the former SR.  The next connection to be provided was a double track fully signalled connection immediately on the east side of Reading Main Line East Signal Box (Reading Old Junction) and this remained in use until the 1965 rationalisation and closure of the SR station and since then has formed the access route to the platform(s) used by 3rd rail electric trains at the east end of the station.  The third direct connection was installed during WWII and runs from Reading New Junction on the GW end to Reading Spur Jcn at the SR end and nowadays is the principal connection between the two former railways although it is now only double track (there were originally three loops in addition to the double track).

 

There was another connection rather further east of the General station and that was from the WR goods yard to Huntley & Palmers - it tunnelled under the GWR mainlines  and the SR line and had a triangular junction at the north (GWR) end with curves which could probably be accurately modelled in 4mm scale in the average bedroom, very small radius!   it lasted into the 1960s.   It effectively provided a route - no doubt never used - from the GW's Low Level Yard to the SR's goods yard but the normal transfer route was between the first of the connections I listed above.  

 

The Reading - Basingstoke line was originally the 'Hants' part of the Berks & Hants Railway so was GWR owned.  After nationalisation the entire line excluding Southcoy te Jcn was transferred to SR control (April 1950) but for many years trains were unchanged being a mixture of GWR local services to Basingstoke and long distance cross-country trains between the south coast (basically Bournemouth) and the Midlands/North.  The local service has swung between SR and WR over the years - it was dieselised as part of the Hampshire scheme with most trains running beyond Basingstoke - initially to Eastleigh or Portsmouth but later some ran to Salisbury.   Later the through trains to Portsmouth were cut back to either Eastleigh or just Basingstoke.  It then we nt over to being covered by WR DMUs with very few working going beyond Basingstoke and has been worked by Turbo units ever since they arrived at Reading in the 1990s, with no trains going beyond Basingstoke.   It is a very busy freight route with at least one container train in each direction for most hours of the day and at some times of day with two such trains in each direction plus other freights and an hourly Cross-Country passenger service plus one or two of the very heavily used Reading - Basinsgstoke route local trains every hour in each direction (the latter are now the only 100% diesel train worked local service running westwards from Reading).

[Zomboid]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Reading - Basingstoke line was originally the 'Hants' part of the Berks & Hants Railway so was GWR owned.  After nationalisation the entire line excluding Southcoy te Jcn was transferred to SR control

It's still part of NRs Wessex Route (or whatever they're calling it these days, route, zone, region... It'll be something different next week anyway).

[Lacathedrale]

It is known that the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry - and this is no different! It has been determind that the bay-window room is infact a far better place for my home office, and as such the space I have to play with is as follows:

 

 

8' x 16" for the main layout, with a 2'6" x 5" sliver behind the door (headshunt, cassette, fold down FY/traverser/etc.)

 

[Chimer]

First thoughts:

 

1.  Have you settled on scale/gauge yet?  Presumably not G in this space ..... 

 

2.  Are you thinking the "sliver" could be (say) a 2" x 1" batten on the wall with a 2'6" x 15" shelf hingeing down from it?

 

Cheers, Chris

[Zomboid]

The door is open against the wall in the photo? Doesn't look like you've got much space behind it, though by tapering it you might get a bit of room at the expense of only having the door open to 75* or so