Mol's MSC Hudswell Clarke 204hp Diesel

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Ruston said:

What decoder/sound project will you be using? Something made for a BR Class 03, I presume?

Legomanbiffo came highly recommended. There is a choice of an 03 or an 05, both of which are jackshaft-drive diesel mechanical 0-6-0s with Gardner 204hp engines (like my HC). 

I was going to go for the 03 but Legomanbiffo said he thought the 05 sound project was better, so I’ve gone for the 05. 

I just hope I can find the gears - I don’t get on well with Hunslet gearboxes! 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Hardware wise, ESU Loksound 5 with an EM2 speaker. 

They arrived today, though the adaptor board I ordered to go with them has been delayed. 

At least I can trial mount the speaker in the bonnet. 

[Mol_PMB]

I have done some more work on a possible compensated chassis design, and I'm feeling a bit more confident about making this.

I've sorted out a few more dimensional issues and I think I'm close to something workable that can be made with the tools and materials I have available to me.

I'm going to think about this for a couple more days and then maybe have a go at making the functional chassis.

[birdbath]

On 06/02/2021 at 17:53, Mol_PMB said:

Legomanbiffo came highly recommended. There is a choice of an 03 or an 05, both of which are jackshaft-drive diesel mechanical 0-6-0s with Gardner 204hp engines (like my HC). 

I was going to go for the 03 but Legomanbiffo said he thought the 05 sound project was better, so I’ve gone for the 05. 

I just hope I can find the gears - I don’t get on well with Hunslet gearboxes! 

 

 

Is it going to have one of those 'gearboxes of a thousand neutrals'?!

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, birdbath said:

 

Is it going to have one of those 'gearboxes of a thousand neutrals'?!

I think 05s do have that type. Allegedly they are OK if well maintained (unlike the one we know...)

The HC gearbox is different of course, but not knowing the prototype (or indeed the 03 or 05) I didn't really have any justification for picking one over the other. It's got the right engine at least, and if there are a few hisses and clunks when changing direction that's good enough for me.

As long as the model doesn't coast to a stand while I'm trying to change up and failing to find the next gear, at which point I have to frantically wind the handbrake on as I roll backwards because I've used up all the air trying to find a gear...

 

[Mol_PMB]

I am very sorely tempted by one of these as a future project - this looks like an excellent kit of a prototype with a far superior gearbox:

http://www.taffvale.wales/New-Products.html#void

Or shall I leave it for Birdbath's 'visiting loco' project?

One of these originally worked for Lancashire Tar Distillers at Weaste, later moved to Cadishead, then Preston (where FP now works).

[Mol_PMB]

A small amount of progress on the project this evening, thanks to my bubble friend and his lokprogrammer. We rigged up the decoder and EM2 speaker and had a play with the sounds.

It's not particularly loud but I think that's OK, too loud would become annoying. More important is the frequency spectrum which is very pleasing. The bass from the EM2 is good, in fact we could feel the desk vibrating. It will be interesting to see whether the sound is changed significantly when it's mounted inside the loco bonnet.

It definitely sounds like a Gardner engine, so that's a plus. And it has some hisses and clunks from the brakes and gearbox which seem to occur at appropriate times for the control inputs. So that ticks all my priorities. I'm not sure I will ever use some of the other sounds (no guards on the MSC so no need for the whistle, no vacuum brakes so no point in having an exhauster sound, etc. etc. )

This has spurred me on to make some more progress on the chassis so that we can actually drive the loco rather than a circuit board!

[Phil Traxson]

On 08/02/2021 at 21:23, Mol_PMB said:

I am very sorely tempted by one of these as a future project - this looks like an excellent kit of a prototype with a far superior gearbox:

http://www.taffvale.wales/New-Products.html#void

Or shall I leave it for Birdbath's 'visiting loco' project?

One of these originally worked for Lancashire Tar Distillers at Weaste, later moved to Cadishead, then Preston (where FP now works).

Looks like "Uproar" with a wider chassis!

Edited February 10, 2021 by Phil Traxson

[Mol_PMB]

14 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

Looks like "Uproar" with a wider chassis!

It is, and that's partly what attracts me to it.

I've now got quite a lot of photos of it at Weaste, Cadishead and Preston.

I think the loco still exists in preservation.

[Mol_PMB]

Some progress this afternoon with the sound fitment.

 

I made two stretchers to fit across the width of the bonnet, one at each end, with a central 6BA bolt:

 

Then I slightly shortened the end fixing tabs of the EM2 speaker, enlarged the holes in them and thinned the tabs down. This enabled me to fit a rubber grommet into them.

 

I then fitted the speaker over the protruding bolts and secured with with some more nuts:

 

This shows the grommets a bit more clearly:

 

I've taken it out again for now, but it's good to make sure that the plan works.

 

Next job this evening is to make a start on the chassis. I've already done some frame spacers so now I am going to shape the main frame plates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[birdbath]

35 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Some progress this afternoon with the sound fitment.

 

I made two stretchers to fit across the width of the bonnet, one at each end, with a central 6BA bolt:

 

Then I slightly shortened the end fixing tabs of the EM2 speaker, enlarged the holes in them and thinned the tabs down. This enabled me to fit a rubber grommet into them.

 

I then fitted the speaker over the protruding bolts and secured with with some more nuts:

 

This shows the grommets a bit more clearly:

 

I've taken it out again for now, but it's good to make sure that the plan works.

 

Next job this evening is to make a start on the chassis. I've already done some frame spacers so now I am going to shape the main frame plates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That really does look like the bonnet has been made to fit perfectly round the speaker.  How convenient!

 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, birdbath said:

 

That really does look like the bonnet has been made to fit perfectly round the speaker.  How convenient!

 

I was going to get the EM1 and then realised the EM2 would just fit.

 

The suggestion from (formerly of) Newton Heath was to stick it in with blu-tac! I thought bolts and grommets would be a better solution. Especially having felt it vibrate and knowing that if it falls off it will get chewed up by the flywheel. 

[Mol_PMB]

A pair of chassis frames, the correct size and soldered together. These are now ready for the milling machine. 

 

Also a set of frame spacers, made from oddments of brass tube with the ends tapped to take small bolts to hold it all together during assembly. Eventually they can be soldered in. 

 

There will be a couple more frame spacers added later which will also provide a means of fixing the frames to  the footplate. 

 

Next step is to finalise the drawing and then mill some holes and slots! 

[Mol_PMB]

Progress is being made on the chassis!

 

[Mol_PMB]

And starting to come together with the stretchers:

Next jobs are the rocking beams and the cannon box. I’d better get back to the mill...

[Mol_PMB]

The rocking bits:

 

And a trial assembly with wheels to make sure it sits level:

 

Next task is two more frame stretchers at the top where it attaches to the footplate and body. 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

 

I have added two frame stretchers made from substantial brass angle, and drilled them to take 10ba bolts which will go through the footplate into the body. The frame is now very robust. 

 

There are still some parts to finish including the compensating beam pivots and the jackshaft bearings, but I thought it was a good idea to do a trial assembly. 

 

 

So far, so good. When doing the drawing I thought I might need to relieve the frames for the flywheel and it is indeed a snug fit, but that can be cured with a file. 

[Mol_PMB]

I continued by placing the footplate on top, and everything seems to fit. The top of the worm is very close to the underside of the footplate - again this was something I had identified in the drawing and I will relieve it slightly with a file. 

 

And finally just to see what it looked like, I placed the body sections on top.

 

There’s still a long way to go, but finally it is starting to look like a locomotive. This will spur me on to get it finished!

Edited February 12, 2021 by Mol_PMB
Typo

[Mol_PMB]

"Euston, we have a problem!"

 

I'm continuing to try and gather more information and photos of these locos to help with detailing my model. One correspondent has just pointed out these locos did not all have the same wheelbase.

I wish I had known that yesterday morning before I built the chassis, because it's wrong! And some of the assumptions I had made previously were wrong too.

 

The story is complicated and not helped by an error in one of the main reference books. However I think I have now worked it out:

• MSC first batch D1-D6 built in 1959/60 had a wheelbase of 100" equally split 50"+50", and a wheel diameter of 3'4.5". (note: the Hudswell Clarke Diesels book says the wheelbase is 90" but this cannot be right as it would leave no space for the brake blocks between the wheels; MSC Railways book states 100")
• The ten similar locos built for BR in 1961 had bigger 3'6" wheels and the wheelbase was increased by the same amount, 51.5"+51.5" = 103".
• MSC second batch D7-D14 had the smaller 3'4.5" wheels, and the longer wheelbase 103", but this time unevenly split 53"+50".  I don't have many good side-on photos of the second batch of locos but the 3" difference in wheel spacing is visible when you know what you're looking for.

Now, the kit (for the BR locos) was supplied with 3'6" wheels (correct for the BR ones) and a 50"+50" wheelbase (wrong for the BR ones, but correct for the first batch of MSC locos).

I swapped the wheels (which were also of the wrong pattern) for the correct pattern 3'3" wheels, reasoning that although this was a bit small for 3'4.5" it was within tyre reprofiling tolerances.

 

Without the information above or a GA for the MSC locos (I have tried to get one...) I built my new chassis following the BR loco dimensions, with a wheelbase 51.5"+51.5" = 103".

 

I'm building a loco from the second batch, so the overall wheelbase of my chassis is correct, but the middle wheelset is 0.875mm too far forward.

 

I think I can resolve this with a new pair of compensating beams, with the rear arm extended by 0.875mm. I'll need to slightly enlarge the middle slot in the frames but it's only a clearance hole so that's easy.

The middle wheelset will end up with a tiny percentage less weight on it, but the effect will be negligible and probably smaller than the effect of the motor's weight and torque.

Fortunately I haven't made the coupling rods yet, as they will need to have a different spacing.

 

Hmm, back to the mill for me tomorrow..

 

MSC batch 1 loco: even wheel spacing 50"+50":

.

 

BR loco: even wheel spacing but further apart 51.5"+51.5" (difference accentuated by worn tyres too)

MSC batch 2 loco: front wheelset (to right) is further forward: 53"+50":

[Mol_PMB]

I have made the new equalising beams to correct the wheel spacing, and done a few other tweaks previously identified.

 

Also, @Rick_Skateboard kindly turned the flanges off a wheelset on his lathe so I now have prototypically correct flangeless centre drivers. 

 

Here is a trial assembly to show the revised appearance. 

 

There is still some adjustment and fettling to do, but I’m getting there.

 

The remaining major task is the coupling rods which will need to be scratchbuilt and jointed. I think I am going to cheat and joint them on the crankpins, with cosmetic knuckle joints. Hopefully I have some suitable material in stock. 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I've done a drawing for milling the rods; hopefully I'll get on with this tomorrow.

I've decided to make the joints on the crankpins and the knuckle joints will just be cosmetic.

After considering milling them out of steel I found I didn't have any suitable material, and also decided that it would be easier to reproduce the 3-dimensional shape by soldering on some washers to thicken them up at the crankpins and knuckle joints. So they will be milled from 1.6mm brass sheet.

[Mol_PMB]

I should add that I’ve had the loco chassis trundling up and down the layout today. No rods or pickups yet so it was running as a 2-2-2 with a trailing cable, but it seemed to work OK. I don’t have a rolling road so the layout is the only place to test it. 

The flywheel is still binding between the frames so I need to relieve them some more. 

Once I’ve done that and made the rods, I’ll have another go with the rods on. 

Then I need to try and work out what to do with the jackshaft cranks, but that’s for another day! 

[Mol_PMB]

I spent the afternoon with the milling machine and have made this piece of filigree, which hopefully contains some rods.

A little work with the piercing saw and some small files should shape them correctly.

The top of the rods are towards the middle and the pairs of rods are presently joined by the oil pot protrusions. The bottom part of the rod eyes will be filed round.

Note that the half-depth counterbores are meant to be slighly out of line with the rod end holes. If I'd had a 4.6mm slot drill I could have made them concentric, but instead I used a 4mm to do the edge against the full thickness part of the rod, and will file off the remainder.

[Sweet pea]

Some really nice milling and drilling.

[Mol_PMB]

I haven't completely forgotten about this thread or this project, it's just that I'm making very good progress on the layout where this loco will run, and that has distracted me from the loco itself.

I have recently bought some original medium-format negatives of MSC Railway subjects, including this nice view of D12, with D6 and D14 also visible.

I will get back to the loco project soon!