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Auto trailer design


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I'm in the process of extending a Dapol 7mm diagram N into the longer 70 foot L or P and have spent a lot of time studying designs in terms of window spacing etc.

 

These trailer types were all purpose built, not conversions, but even though there are only two basic window sizes (large and pairs of droplights), they still have random spacings between windows.

 

Across the various trailer designs there is a very marked lack of consistency in how the windows were set out. I think I've read the GWR had standard underframes and built bodies to fit but then surely its easier to design standard panels and windows than an apparently random jumble along the length of the coach? I can see that on a steam railmotor conversion the replaced section may not replicate the existing saloon but why have a random arrangement within the replaced area?

 

I'm curious as this is fairly unlike Swindon: was this apparently haphazard approach precisely why Churchward brought it in standardisation later on?

 

The later steel types A27 and A30 are classic Collett design in that they merely copy the layout of the earlier N.  

Edited by Hal Nail
typo
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The layout may seem haphazard to you but you can be sure that there was a logical reason for it. the most likely reason for choosing particular inter-window spacings is that they made best use of the timber sizes available in the works, minimising the amount of sawing (and especially sawing along the grain) required. It is by no means impossible that there was no fully dimensioned drawing when the first example was built (drawings weren't normally used on the shop-floor of railway works anyway) and the men on the ground (and especially the foreman) worked out the most efficient way of arranging the required doors and windows, the general arrangement drawing then being created to show what had been built rather than what was to be built.

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2 hours ago, God's Wonderful Railway 1835 said:

Looking in the Russell part 2 book on page 44 there is a Dia. N and on page 45 there is a Dia. L and to me if you took the sides from the driving end size/layout to the end of the second set of cross seats ie the first 19' 2 1/2" (9' + 1 1/4" + 5' + 1 1/4" + 5') and put this at the other side of the vestibule in the same direction the hard part will be done for you as you will have to just fill in the 1' 4 1/4 where the luggage compartment is also longer.   

I actually took the 4 bays immediately in front of the passenger entrance and flipped them. That way the solebar detail works as well (or near enough for me anyway).

 

DSC_0034 (3).JPG

Edited by Hal Nail
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Now, that opens up a possibility worth investigating.  I want a 4mm Diagram N for Cwmdimbath, and doubt my ability to scratchbuild a panelled coach, but if an A26 can be made from a lengthened cut’n’shut N, it follows that an N can be made from an A26 with a section cut out.  
 

And there is a 4mm A26 bodyshell available from, IIRC, Recreation Models (Rue d’Etropal of this parish).  Cwmdimbath may have it’s Diagram N trailer yet, no.38 in BR crimson.  

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Now, that opens up a possibility worth investigating.  I want a 4mm Diagram N for Cwmdimbath, and doubt my ability to scratchbuild a panelled coach, but if an A26 can be made from a lengthened cut’n’shut N, it follows that an N can be made from an A26 with a section cut out.  
 

And there is a 4mm A26 bodyshell available from, IIRC, Recreation Models (Rue d’Etropal of this parish).  Cwmdimbath may have it’s Diagram N trailer yet, no.38 in BR crimson.  

If an N is basically the same as an A26 with a section cut out, and an A26 body is available from Simon Dawson (Rue d'Êtropal), have you asked Simon if he would add an N to his range. Since he already has a CAD file for an A26, creating a file for the shorter N should, at least in theory, be a very simple task.

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 if an A26 can be made from a lengthened cut’n’shut N, it follows that an N can be made from an A26 with a section cut out.  

 

Careful! An N is an L or P with a section missing, not an A26.

 

The A26 has 3 different window sizes, 2 or 3 different sized gaps between and no two clusters of windows are alike. What I would call a hotchpotch - albeit I have now realised the error of my ways!

 

Incidentally I see you mention BR Crimson. Lewis refers to several and L, Ns and Ps in BR maroon but I think he is referring to crimson. Am I right in presuming anything withdrawn even in late1957 or early '58 would be highly unlikely to have been repainted in its final year or so?

Edited by Hal Nail
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1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Incidentally I see you mention BR Crimson. Lewis refers to several and L, Ns and Ps in BR maroon but I think he is referring to crimson. Am I right in presuming anything withdrawn even in late1957 or early '58 would be highly unlikely to have been repainted in its final year or so?

It is a strange thing (because most ex-GWR carriages that were painted crimson quickly weathered to a pale, almost orange, colour - I suspect that a white or light grey undercoat might have been used), but those ex-GWR autocars that were painted allover crimson came out a dowdy dark colour that was very close to how they would have looked in the later maroon had they ever been painted thus (and I agree that they wouldn't have been).

 

When the Airfix model first came out, I remember a learned friend saying that it was so nice because "that was just how people remember them".

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29 minutes ago, bécasse said:

It is a strange thing (because most ex-GWR carriages that were painted crimson quickly weathered to a pale, almost orange, colour - I suspect that a white or light grey undercoat might have been used), but those ex-GWR autocars that were painted allover crimson came out a dowdy dark colour that was very close to how they would have looked in the later maroon had they ever been painted thus (and I agree that they wouldn't have been).

Wonder if it was because they were wood rather than steel?

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Lewis uses the term 'maroon' for trailers painted crimson and cream by BR(W) between june 1948 and when the practice ceased in 1950 (apparently as a result of Mr. Riddles having seen one at Paddington and demanding to know why his best main line livery was being used for a lowly auto trailer).  WR painted auto trailers in unlined plain crimson between that time and the livery revision in 1956, and Lewis describes this livery as maroon as well.  In 1956 the livery for non-gangwayed vehicles changed again to unlined maroon, and it requires a bit of interpretation to be certain which livery is being discussed in Lewis at times, as it is not always clear from the black and white photos, and his comments bear this out, especially in the case of very dirty trailers.

 

By 1956 many of the wooden panelled trailers were approaching the end of their lives, and AFAIK all the matchboarded types had gone by then, so I am fairly confident saying that no matchboard trailer ever carried unlined maroon livery.  I doubt that any panelled trailer did either, but am happy to be proved wrong.  By the time the next livery appeared, an extension of lined maroon to include non-gangwayed stock in 1959, I am fairly confident that only steel bodied trailers were left; A27/8/30/38/9/43/44.  If the 7 year period between carriage repaintings is correct, any A38/9 or A43/4 still in service after 1960 should in principle have been in lined maroon livery, and this is borne out by photographic evidence.

 

Where liveries were applied to gangwayed stock only, such as crimson and cream June '48-'56 or lined maroon '56-'59, it is worth mentioning that there were auto trailer types that were gangwayed within 2 car sets, the Plymouth Area 70 footers and the ex Taff Vale sets.  These were given whatever current livery that the WR was using for auto trailers at whatever time they were repainted, so none would have been given crimson and cream after the 1950 Riddles letter ending the practice, or lined maroon between 1956 and 1959.  At least one Taff Vale twin set was painted unlined maroon at Caerphilly in 1956, and a case could have been made for it being lined, as it was gangwayed stock, but clearly never was. 

 

There is also the case of Clifton Downs driving trailer W 3338 W, which features in the Lewis book, withdrawn in 1949 (probably still in GW livery) and reinstated 1950; it ran for another 5 years, and is of interest to me being alloxated to Tondu in 1953.  This was repainted when it was reinstated, and given an unofficial lined crimson livery with a single black/yellow line at waist level, I believe the same lining as was used on the upper border of the cream area on crimson and cream stock.  This was carried around the front of  the trailer.  I'm planning to build this  trailer from the Roxey kit and paint it as photographed in Lewis in the reinstated livery; it'll be interesting to see the comments and almost a shame I don't exhibit any more!

Edited by The Johnster
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