Transpennine Class 68 & Mark 5 Stock (not being) taken out of Service

[rob D2]

I don’t live up there, 

but these things sound epic , is this the reason they seem to have garnered a bit of an enthusiast following ?

[Traintresta]

8 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I don’t live up there, 

but these things sound epic , is this the reason they seem to have garnered a bit of an enthusiast following ?

I've seen them a couple of times at Leeds as I was getting the train back to Barnsley, they come through the adjacent platforms and although they are noisy you are right, they sound tremendous, and for that reason alone I like these loco's more than anything else in the modern scene.  I don't pay much attention to the modern scene from a modelling point of view but these things have won me over!

[Hobby]

You'd have thought with such a modern design they'd have sorted out the noise pollution by now... We live 1/2 mile away from the station and in a quiet cul de sac but can still hear Chiltern's versions when the arrive and depart the station, I pity those who live nearer who have to suffer the racket when they terminate and sit around awaiting departure back.

 

Yes, for you diesel enthusiasts they might sound great but for the rest of the population they are far too noisy...

Edited January 16, 2021 by Hobby

[4630]

11 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I don’t live up there, 

but these things sound epic , is this the reason they seem to have garnered a bit of an enthusiast following ?

The sound, plus the novelty these days of a locomotive on a passenger service.

 

I live a mile and a half from Huddersfield station and on a still evening, if outside the house, I can sometimes hear the 22.15pm ish service depart.

 

For those who’ve not experienced the sound, this one of numerous on YouTube, will give an aural flavour;

Class 68 departing from Manchester Victoria

 

[Wheatley]

They're certainly impressive. But like I said, I wouldn't one parked outside my house all night. 

[woodenhead]

I still don't understand why they chose such a combination to work trains between Scarborough and Liverpool - I am guessing most patronage is between York and Liverpool. 

 

As much as I like big loud locos it looks over powered and over complicated with the Mk5 coaches as well.

 

Was the three Nova specification choice simply to get the trains as quickly as possible, simply ordering a few more 802s would have been suitable for the service, would offer flexibility with the North East services and could run electric Liverpool to Manchester.  For the current combination the only options look to be a class 88, as the DVT is a 68 clone in the cab, when they wire Manchester to Leeds to cover the bit from York to Scarborough (and maybe Standedge).

[phil-b259]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I still don't understand why they chose such a combination to work trains between Scarborough and Liverpool - I am guessing most patronage is between York and Liverpool. 

 

As much as I like big loud locos it looks over powered and over complicated with the Mk5 coaches as well.

 

Was the three Nova specification choice simply to get the trains as quickly as possible, simply ordering a few more 802s would have been suitable for the service, would offer flexibility with the North East services and could run electric Liverpool to Manchester.  For the current combination the only options look to be a class 88, as the DVT is a 68 clone in the cab, when they wire Manchester to Leeds to cover the bit from York to Scarborough (and maybe Standedge).

 

Don't forget at the time the contracts were being drawn up the Government / Network Rail were still planning to fully electrify the main TPE routes between Manchester and Leeds. Opting for new coaches and hiring in traction was effectively a stopgap solution and gave the ability to swap to electric traction at a later stage with the minimum of outlay.

 

Of course by the time the things arrived, the electrification had been canned by the Government and although positive noises have been made about it recently, the 'stopgap' solution looks to be needed for a while yet.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

I don’t live up there, 

but these things sound epic , is this the reason they seem to have garnered a bit of an enthusiast following ?

 

Quite probably - but as has been pointed out if you are a resident living next to a railway line / stabling point big and nosey trains are NOT appreciated - particularity if they replace DMUs that are less noisy

 

Now while I do appreciate (and have argued the point with others) that choosing to live next to a railway line means you have to expect train noise as part and parcel of life - it doesn't follow that railway operators should be introducing nosier traction as time goes on - it should be a bit quieter each time as the technology is refined.

 

Finally, the railway system is run to transport passengers and freight from place to place - it is NOT a plaything for enthusiasts.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Don't forget at the time the contracts were being drawn up the Government / Network Rail were still planning to fully electrify the main TPE routes between Manchester and Leeds. Opting for new coaches and hiring in traction was effectively a stopgap solution and gave the ability to swap to electric traction at a later stage with the minimum of outlay.

 

Of course by the time the things arrived, the electrification had been canned by the Government and although positive noises have been made about it recently, the 'stopgap' solution looks to be needed for a while yet.

But the 802 was in that mix - it was a hybrid train which suits an evolving market whereas the 68 Mk5 combo means the locomotive has to be replaced with an electric or an electro-diesel at some point if the wires did extend - was Scarborough in that mix or would they simply move the a pure electric loco Mk5 combo to Liverpool to Newcastle services as long as Sunderland/Middlesbrough was also wired.

 

More 802s would have been a sound arrangement than having to commission another train, hindsight of course is a wonderful thing but the large fleet of IEP derived trains appear to be settling down into sound packages whilst the Mk5s are a dead end mainly commissioned for sleeper traffic.  West Coast is also going with IEP derivatives to supplement the Pendolinos and remove the older Voyagers.

Edited January 16, 2021 by woodenhead

[fezza]

If Scarborough folk don't want them we'll happily take them off you for the Midland Mainline. 

 

It does, however, beggar belief that a modern passenger locomotive is noisier than something from the 1950s. It would be interesting to know how this was allowed and what the design brief said. 

[Mallard60022]

Did I not read somewhere long ago that the 68s would be replaced by a Bi Mode Driving Unit? Maybe that is what was mentioned above by someone?

P

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, fezza said:

If Scarborough folk don't want them we'll happily take them off you for the Midland Mainline. 

 

It does, however, beggar belief that a modern passenger locomotive is noisier than something from the 1950s. It would be interesting to know how this was allowed and what the design brief said. 

They are noisier, sometimes they even have a bit of a Deltic tilt in them.  Given the majority of locomotives on the railway now go ying ying apart from the small fleets of English Electrics that pootle about on infrastracture, stock transfers and NR work, people are simply not used to big sounds on the railways and certainly not in somewhere as sleepy as Scarborough where it's been a diet of units since the introduction of the 158s under BR.  When did BR stop servicing trains in Scarborough, that will be even further back, at worst up to the early 80s they stabled locos in the old good yard at the station - but now they are stabling the 68s with their trains a little down the running line in the purpose built yard.  The people of Scarborough didn't ask for any of this, TPE should have considered it more before plonking a servicing point in the middle of a residential area.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

.... TPE should have considered it more before plonking a servicing point in the middle of a residential area.

Did they know how noisy the things were going to be before they plonked ?

[25901]

Just to add to the debate, as reported on other site the fact that FL crews have been seen on some TPe 68 movements over the new year and I have a mate who’s a TPe driver has been told he is out of the 68 link training. 
I work with H/S and next time I’m in York I might take a noise level meter with me but in my view they are too loud. 
Maybe DRS might have a use for the 37/4s lol

[woodenhead]

45 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Did they know how noisy the things were going to be before they plonked ?

Built before 2017, depot in Scarborough is post 2018, in service with DRS and Chiltern - very popular with railfans because of the noise they make - surely that last bit should have set alarm bells ringing

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I still don't understand why they chose such a combination to work trains between Scarborough and Liverpool - I am guessing most patronage is between York and Liverpool. 

 

As much as I like big loud locos it looks over powered and over complicated with the Mk5 coaches as well.

 

Was the three Nova specification choice simply to get the trains as quickly as possible, simply ordering a few more 802s would have been suitable for the service, would offer flexibility with the North East services and could run electric Liverpool to Manchester.  For the current combination the only options look to be a class 88, as the DVT is a 68 clone in the cab, when they wire Manchester to Leeds to cover the bit from York to Scarborough (and maybe Standedge).

 

The problem with York - Scarborough is that for a lot of the year it could be worked as a two car shuttle but if the weather is nice on the coast the a large wodge of the West Riding want a through train with plenty of seats. Also before COVID not having come from Newcastle / Man Aiport its the best service for passengers in the core section (York/Leeds/Man) to use.

 

I was told by somebody from TPE that for maintenance etc in the depot the 68 needed to be at the blocks in Scarborough and use Platform 1 or 2 (i.e. not in the train shed). While the could have got more 802s my understanding is that the 68+Mk5 has significantly cheaper lease cost, coupled with the lack of need for 125mph running and that 68s can out drag 802s on diesel up the hills then why get a more expensive solution.   Presumably this is the same for the 397s, as a pure electric its more cost effective than a IET.

[Wickham Green too]

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

..... - surely that last bit should have set alarm bells ringing

Probably sets fire alarms ringing ................. fortunately the hideous things have yet to set wheel this side of the Thames so I'm not particularly familiar with them.

[russ p]

Just been told on good authority this is a wind up. The bad news however is they are looking at putting more silencing on the locos . I hope its just the TPE ones that get it 

[Mike_Walker]

Somewhat surprised at the complaints from Scarborough.  When Chiltern switched from 67s to 68s there was a very favourable reaction from the neighbours at Stourbridge Junction who had in the past complained vigorously at the noise levels of the 67s.  Perhaps its because those sensitive Yorkshire ears haven't previously been exposed to anything louder...

[Tankerman]

5 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Somewhat surprised at the complaints from Scarborough.  When Chiltern switched from 67s to 68s there was a very favourable reaction from the neighbours at Stourbridge Junction who had in the past complained vigorously at the noise levels of the 67s.  Perhaps its because those sensitive Yorkshire ears haven't previously been exposed to anything louder...

 

Since it's in Yorkshire, perhaps it would help if the exhaust noise could be modified to sound like a brass band?

[Michael Hodgson]

On 14/01/2021 at 14:59, jools1959 said:

Sounds like another case of “NIMBY” though i will have say that Class 68’s have a wonderful throaty roar.

 

Bring back the Deltics.  Always impressive when they started up at Kings Cross with mighty plumes of blue smoke blasting right up to the rafters in the overall roof.  And when I was commuting from Huntingdon, they made better time running on one engine than the booked class 31.

[Wickham Green too]

44 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

.... the exhaust noise could be modified to sound like a brass band?

You want a 'heritage' railcar for a good cornet sound !

[Legend]

Are we all becoming a bit  too sensitive do you think? I can remember being at a caravan Park on the cliff at Berwick Upon Tweed  and every night hearing the drone of Deltics on the sleepers, late night trains anyway . The residents of the local housing estate must just have got used to it . That said I’ve only heard Class 68s on video . Are they noisier than a Deltic? 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Legend

[woodenhead]

26 minutes ago, Legend said:

Are we all becoming a bit  too sensitive do you think? I can remember being at a caravan Park on the cliff at Berwick Upon Tweed  and every night hearing the drone of Deltics on the sleepers, late night trains anyway . The residents of the local housing estate must just have got used to it . That said I’ve only heard Class 68s on video . Are they noisier than a Deltic? 

Think I've been as said same caravan park, remember watching a few trains there and an MGR stuck in the loop with a dragging brake or something - it didn't sound healthy as it was dragged in.

 

We probably are more sensitive - but if you move next to a preserved railway you can expect there to be noise, if you move next to an open piece of land and someone later turns it into a stabling point for diesel trains which then aren't switched off, you may have a case to complain.  I like trains, I like seeing them hauling a train and making a noise - would I want to live next door to a generator running all night no.

[Hobby]

Also it's likely to affect the value of your house, would you accept that... 

 

In answer to Legend's post, no we are not. 

 

Times move on and there is really no excuse to have such noise pollution these days.

 

 

 

Quite honestly the best sounding ic engine was the Autounion GP cars of the late 30's, any others pale into insignificance!