BenL Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) I've been doing some research on LMS open wagons with a view to increasing the number represented on my 1947-set GWR layout. In the process, I've come across a couple of shots on the HMRS website of LMS 10T 5 plankers but I can't find any more details about them online or in my limited LMS wagon library. To my inexpert eye, they look like they might be RCH 1923 standard 16' 6'' 10T 5 plank wagons but that's only a pretty uninformed guess. They certainly look different to ex-MR 10T 5 planks I've seen in photos. If anyone has any knowledge of these wagons, I'd be very interested to know if they were merchandise or mineral wagons, if they had an LMS diagram number, whether they were absorbed by or built for the LMS (I notice the photos are from the Charles Roberts collection), how many the LMS had, and how long they lasted in traffic. Here are the links to the photos - any insights anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated! https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-134946.html https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-356761-loaded-accident-salvage-wagon-shows-method-of-securing-load.html Cheers, Ben Edited January 14, 2021 by BenL 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Tooley Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 These are 12 ton general merchandise wagons to LMS dia 1666. Well over 50,000 were built between 1923 and 1930. Plenty left in 1947, I should have thought. D 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 22 minutes ago, BenL said: I've been doing some research on LMS open wagons with a view to increasing the number represented on my 1947-set GWR layout. In the process, I've come across a couple of shots on the HMRS website of LMS 10T 5 plankers but I can't find any more details about them online or in my limited LMS wagon library. To my inexpert eye, they look like they might be RCH 1923 standard 16' 6'' 10T 5 plank wagons but that's only a pretty uninformed guess. They certainly look different to ex-MR 10T 5 planks I've seen in photos. If anyone has any knowledge of these wagons, I'd be very interested to know if they were merchandise or mineral wagons, if they had an LMS diagram number, whether they were absorbed by or built for the LMS (I notice the photos are from the Charles Roberts collection), how many the LMS had, and how long they lasted in traffic. Here are the links to the photos - any insights anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated! https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-134946.html https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-356761-loaded-accident-salvage-wagon-shows-method-of-securing-load.html Cheers, Ben Definitely a D1666 open goods wagon. The number even corresponds. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) Huge thanks Darryl and Aire Head, I had ruled out D1666 as the HMRS had labelled these as 10T wagons when D1666 were 12T (uprated to 13T in the war) but I guess the HMRS labelling is wrong in these instances. Many thanks for clearing that up for me! I guess the same has happened with these two shots and that rather than another mystery 10T wagon, we're actually looking at D1667 12T wagons? https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-10t-6-plank-sr-23424-in-front-of-crewe-works-clock.html https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-322789-ex-works-hurst-nelson-yard-op-r3l.html Edited January 14, 2021 by BenL 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 19 minutes ago, BenL said: Huge thanks Darryl and Aire Head, I had ruled out D1666 as the HMRS had labelled these as 10T wagons when D1666 were 12T (uprated to 13T in the war) but I guess the HMRS labelling is wrong in these instances. Many thanks for clearing that up for me! I guess the same has happened with these two shots and that rather than another mystery 10T wagon, we're actually looking at D1667 12T wagons? https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-10t-6-plank-sr-23424-in-front-of-crewe-works-clock.html https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-322789-ex-works-hurst-nelson-yard-op-r3l.html I'm very confident that they are D1667s. The D1666 is a wagon that isn't modelled anywhere near enough on my opinion given just how common they were. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Various diag 1666 and 1667 near the beginning of https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen I've sold them now, but didn't 3H do a kit of 1666? Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) In 4 mm scale, Cambrian do both D1666 and D1667. You really can't have too few of these; taking the two diagrams together they came to around one in twenty of all wagons running in 1947. Remember too that on a 1947 GWR layout, GWR wagons should be very much in the minority. Edited January 15, 2021 by Compound2632 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Tooley Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 1 hour ago, hmrspaul said: I've sold them now, but didn't 3H do a kit of 1666? They did, as did Adrian Swain (ABS) and, if memory serves, Ian Kirk. D 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 On 14/01/2021 at 19:53, BenL said: ....... we're actually looking at D1667 12T wagons? https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/10t-5-plank-lms-10t-6-plank-sr-23424-in-front-of-crewe-works-clock.html .... And Southern open 23424 is an ex Brighton vehicle. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 There's evidently been a nasty case of mass misidentification here, which is disturbing. If the captions are wrong for wagons you know about, how can you have confidence in the captions for wagons you don't know about? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) You can't, that's one of the joys of relying on research largely carried out by enthusiastic amateurs. Some of them are (much) better at it than others but at least the fruits of their labours are there to pick over and correct later if necessary. An awful lot of the primary sources we rely on were rescued from skips. In fairness it's only the capacity of the wagons on the HMRS captions which is wrong. The diagram information is just missing. Edited January 15, 2021 by Wheatley 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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