Is there going to be a 2021 product announcement this year?

['CHARD]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Me neither, but I'm old enough to remember the major event that was the publication of each year's Triang and Hornby Dublo catalogues, excitement similar to Hornby announcement day on 5th January these days.  They were worth having for the artwork and presentation; Hornby's current side elevation views are boring and not that informative, though Bachmann are a little better.  I used to like the Mainline catalogues with the photos of locos and stock in realistic layout settings as well.

 

Happy these days with getting information online.

 

I expect there's a 94XX featured in it.  Worth a look if you happen to be waiting for one. 

 

(retreats behind Welsh dresser)

[Waverley47708]

On 18/01/2021 at 15:32, The Johnster said:

As a freight guard at Canton in the 70s, and a back cab jockey off the street with long hair and just out of my teens in a very small c conservative working culture, having to make a name for myself as a reliable pair of hands, I kept the hobby side, and my modelling and spotting past, a bit low key.  Happy to talk about it if it came up but one felt that it was unwise to actively promote the concept lest one was labelled as someone with amatuer leanings,  My level of historical and general railway knowledge marked me out as more than a mere number taker, and the interest I took in the job and eagerness to learn more gained me a degree of respect fairly quickly, but I did not talk about it unless, as I say, the subject came up, which it did fairly often.  It was important to not come across as a know-all, which was all too easy if you volunteered what you knew!  This was, I felt, within the general cultural zeitgeist of that period on BR. 

 

It may seem a bit strange to current or more recent railwaymen; having the railway as a hobby as well as a job has become more normalised and accepted.  A friend who drives for Veola and formerly ATW in the Valleys has become a modeller since starting in the job about 20 years ago, and says he has been considerably encouraged in this by his colleagues; this would not have been the case in the 70s.  There were enthusiasts on the job then of course, and there were the regular number of spotters in new staff intakes, most of whom became a bit disheartened when they realised how much they needed to learn, how seriously they had to take it, and how diirty and miserable they were in freezing draughty rough riding brake vans in the small wee hours of cold, dark, wet, winter nights.  An attitude was required which enthusiasm could enhance, but the culture shock was not inconsiderable to many of them, and those that 'couldn't hack it' self weeded out fairly rapidly, many losing interest in railways altogether. 

 

The men I worked with were, almost entirely, enthusiastic railwaymen while not being necessarily railway enthusiasts.  Most employers would give their eye teeth for staff like this, but the railway still had the remnants of the old 'officers and men' mentality and they were largely unappreciated, or at lest felt that way,  They loved the job, but one had to take into account that in 1970 when I joined, they'd just come through a decade of change, uncertainty, cuts, and redundncies that had battered morale horribly, and were in for more over the coming decades.  Single manning, guards riding on locos, and, in time, DOO to the extent that drivers are now expected to carry out train preparation inspections; there was a palpable feeling that the status of the job had gone, which it largely had; British Rail was a public joke, and that there was no future in it.  The government, society in general, and management appeared to be anti-railway, and it was distressing to see managerial careers advanced on the back of 'rationalisation' and cost cutting that made further inroads into the changes and downsizing (I'm not saying management had it easy in those days either, Mike, but this was the general perception at the traincrew/ground staff level).

 

It is difficult to overstate the effect of the HST in 1976.  It is well known that this was the train that saved BR, the national joke which had developed the best diesel train in the world from it's own internal resources, and provided the bums on the seats with high speed on traditional trackbeds, airco, double glazed tinted windows, air suspension, sound proofing and seating good enough to see the Pullmans off, all at no extra charge and without the need for reservations.  The airco mk2s that preceeded it were pretty good as well, but never had the public impact or cachet of the HST.  Raiwaymen, myself included steam fan though I am, even those unconnected with it's routes, had great pride in it and attitudes to the railway changed in a very short time.  The public's love affair with motorways ended at about the same time in a morass of gridlocked traffic, while children. the ultimate arbiters, considered it cool to wear their 'I've been on the 125' badges.  So did drivers; HST passed men had brushed aluminium 'Inter City 125' lapel badges which were prized posessions, and the scornful approbation endured by a Canton driver who sold his to a spotter from his mates was palpable.  The spotter gave him £25 for it, probably equat to £200 now.

 

Enthusiasm among railwaymen in the sense that we mean by enthusiasm as enthusiasts (sorry, that scans a bit awkwardly) began to become more acceptable in general, and has led to the current situation, where it seems that a majority of railwaymen and women in both operating and managerial roles are railway enthusiasts; it's infectious, as my Valleys driving chum found out!

 

When I joined the railway, I had a fair level of eruditon about railways in general; for example I knew what a fully fitted train was and why, but the actual nitty gritty down dirty of railway work on the ground was largely a mystery.  I'd had a bit of experience shunting and using a ground frame on the Festiniog (it had a single F in those days).  I was sent over to Penarth North Curve yard to pick up the basics, and learned more about railways in the first day than my entire previous life, or arguably the near half century since.  It was brilliant, and I was being paid for it!  On the second day I was given a shunting pole (something I was ignorant of the existence of at 09.99 the day before, and told to uncouple a cut of 50 minerals,  That done, I was shown how to do it and told to couple them all back up again, and you've only got an hour before they are due out... 

 

One of the qualifications that took you above the 'back cab jockey' level was being able to handle a pole, and while I was never a virtuoso with it (I knew men who could couple an instanter and shorten it in the same movement while running alongside) I could use one well enough to put off a hotbox and couple the train back up in the dark, and to remove the pin from a vacuum bag dummy and knock the bag off it I  had to go inbetween.  You don't learn that as an enthusiast, but being enthusiastic helps...

 

What a gem to find within this topic, a fascinating read and insight.  Thanks for posting.

 

 

[John M Upton]

I too fail to really see the point of paper catalogues anymore, however Hornby did not issue one a couple of years back and the Cataloguistas started getting very irate so they reluctantly issued one a few months later.

 

People just collect catalogues for some reason....

[89A]

Catalogues are a good record of what has been released and what may be out there in the second hand market.

 

I know there are good on line sites (I think Hattons Product Database is one of the best} but you can't beat flicking through the pages of an old catalogue. 

[Legend]

Yes generally I like catalogues but I hark back to the days of my childhood and the classic 73,74 Hornby catalogues . I remember the first Mainline catalogue in 77 which although small was also inspirational with pictures of its introductory locos J72/4MT in a layout setting . The class 45 was in the catalogue but not shown in layout pictured . I remember going out and getting Prototype Model card kits of the signal box and goods shed as these were the ones used by Mainline as a direct result of this. 

 

I still collect Hornby catalogues , but while professional , I find the latest editions bland . I think they've been the same format for about 15 years now .  I gave up membership of the Bachmann Collectors club a few years ago now as it was ceasing to have any relevance to me . While not showing profile views like Hornby ,the Bachmann format, which I don't think has changed at all over the years since 1989, is equally bland .  A catalogue should really promote and stimulate , like that Mainline one did 44 years ago!  For the first time I didn't bother with the Bachmann catalogue last year . 

 

 

[No Decorum]

I happened to have a Hornby catalogue with me when I dropped into my grandson’s place a couple of years ago. He seemed to like looking at it, so I got him his own copy. Months later, his mother noticed that he was very quiet (usually a danger sign, as any parent knows) and found him lying on his bed flicking through the catalogue. So I got him a Bachmann one as well. He seemed quite keen so I got him a train set. It seems popular. This year, I dropped him off a Hornby catalogue and magazine (thank you, Tesco). He was delighted to get them. Need I say more? 

[Paddy]

21 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I wonder if last year's catalogue sold many copies? I must admit I fail to see the point of a catalogue that contains no new items. As a member of the Collector's Club, I will get one "free", but if I didn't, I wouldn't buy it.

 

Today's catalogues have very high production values but the content lacks the "wow" factor and/or narrative.  It is simply page upon page of model photographs - why purchase something like this when you can get the same information from the web?  I totally understand that people collect catalogues and good luck to them but I would like to see a return to the early Tri-ang and other brand catalogues which seem to be full of wonder and excitement.

 

May be it is a case of less is more?  In the 1960s, the range of models was much less so manufacturers had to work harder to make their products desirable?  Alternatively, may be I am just being overly nostalgic...

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

[spamcan61]

3 hours ago, John M Upton said:

I too fail to really see the point of paper catalogues anymore, however Hornby did not issue one a couple of years back and the Cataloguistas started getting very irate so they reluctantly issued one a few months later.

 

People just collect catalogues for some reason....

I may be in a group of 1 here, but I actually found the 2016 'Handbook' far more interesting than the standard catalogue with page after page after page of computer generated images of what might turn up during the next year or two. I bought the 2018 catalogue for some reason and haven't looked at it more than once.

 

[John M Upton]

I have not looked at a Hornby catalogue for a few years now.  Do they still do the same dubious side on computer generated images for page after page or do you get proper three quarter views of actual models now?

[Global]

10 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

I have not looked at a Hornby catalogue for a few years now.  Do they still do the same dubious side on computer generated images for page after page or do you get proper three quarter views of actual models now?

Still the side on view I believe.

 

I don’t have too much of an issue with that but unfortunately the images Hornby use in the catalogue and on the boxes, which they seem to do a much better job of in terms of livery accuracy, don’t usually relate very well to what you actually get! 
 

Just this morning I got 60015 through the post and whilst the artwork on the box looked pretty good in terms of correct colours, what the actual loco inside the box was painted in god only knows!! At least it now has the logo in the right place I guess! 
 

I tend to find Bachmann do a better job in terms of colours (ignoring the TPO stowage vans from a couple of years ago!) and the catalogue images seem to better represent what you’ll get! 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Global

[Class 158 productions]

So the catalog is for the full 2021 year? Or just the spring announcements. Little confused. 

[Graham_Muz]

3 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

So the catalog is for the full 2021 year? Or just the spring announcements. Little confused. 

 

If like last year, the single "Combined Volume" catalogue, that includes all brands, will include all the items announced  since the last catalogue and also include those as part of the Spring announcement next week.

[Legend]

33 minutes ago, Class 158 productions said:

So the catalog is for the full 2021 year? Or just the spring announcements. Little confused. 

 Yeah I also get confused by this .  I think the quarterly announcements really relate to what’s expected to be available in the next 3 months , yet elsewhere there’s a thread of what’s coming into early 2022 I think .  I know it was a reaction to criticism over the very long lead times from Bachmann/Kader eg the 94XX  but still seems confused . Hopefully there will be something new at reasonable price in announcements . 

[Paul.Uni]

There are the models that are were announced in 2019 or earlier. About half of those that are yet to be released, have release dates upto Oct/Nov 2021. The other half are listed as 'awaiting'.

 

The quarterly announcements are models that have not previously been announced and are planned to be released in the following 3 months. These have predominately been new liveries or numbers of existing tooling.

 

Bachmann have said that new tooling would be announced later in the production process. Bachmann haven't said exactly how these would be made, but I would assume that anything that is expected to take longer than 3 months from announcement to release won't be made at the quarterly announcements.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Paul.Uni

[The Johnster]

The old Triang an Hornby Dublo catalogues were wonderful, and still are when one looks at them as historical documents.  As a child I'd spend hours poring over them and building imaginary layouts in my head that the stock would run on.  This developed in my early teens as an interest in layout plans that has stood me in good stead over the years.  But it is impossible for me to state objectively now that they were better than current online catalogues, much as I feel those are bland and uninspiring.  This is because I cannot objectifably determine how much of the joy those 60s catlalogues gave me was down to the fact that I was a child, and things in general gave me more joy in those days, and that this is partially at least what drives the undoubted joy I get from looking at old catalogues, a nostalgia factor!

 

There were quantum leaps forward in realism being achieved in those days, admittedly from a pretty basic starting position.  I had my first Rovex/Triang Black Princess train set for xmas 1956, when I was 4.  Within less than a decade, Triang was producing much better stuff like the Brush Type 2, Britannia, and scale length coaches, running on 'super 4' track which was not much worse than modern setrack.  HD were putting out stuff like scale Castles and Co-Bos that were light years ahead of their die cast models.

 

My view was that things backslid a bit during the period when Triang became Triang Hornby, but perked up when Airfix/Mainline/Lima arrived on the scene.  By that time, I was a competent enough modeller to appreciate and enjoy Mainline's 'realistic model railway' low angle photographs: here are people after my own heart that understand what I want in a model, I thought.  While the Hornby (as Triang were now calling themselves) cover approach, speed blurred wheels of models photographed against real backgrounds, was not to my taste (I thought it just showed up how crude the track and models were), I appreciated what they were trying to achieve; it was an inventive sort of period in cataloguery that was almost as good as the David Shepard covers.  I have a fond recollection of the 1961 (I think) Triang catalogue, with 'Britannia' hauling Pullmans on the South Bank with the Houses of Parliament across the river in the background, the train apparently somewhere in the Lambeth/Vauxhall area...

 

Current RTR is by and large to a very high standard of scale and realism once you discount the 00 anomaly and the tension lock couplings, which I do.  We are probably not far off the maximum possible realism that can be achieved for volume produced items at prices the market will bear, so it is inevitable that the pace of improvement has slowed.  This may be one of the reasons that modern catalogues have lost some of their sense of wonder; it's just one near-perfect model after another, and we focus on miniscule errors like the Dapol Mogul's slide bars.  Where's the joy in that! 

 

Catalogues have been reduced to 'this is a list of the items we sell, they look like this, this is the RRP, they might be available by such and such a date, and here is a list of authorised dealers, now, was there anything else you wanted to know'.  They are practical information, without a place for artistry and inspiration, a failure of marketing to generate enthusiasm.  I know, I'm just another miserable old git complaining that it was better in the old days; well, maybe the catalogues were but the models were rubbish by current standards.  It's not that long ago that Hornby started getting the buffer height correct!

Edited January 28, 2021 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

One thing which might now be seen with Bachmann is the announcement of completely new items which will be available within weeks.   This has happened with EFE branded items (where existing tooling has been used making it all much easier). but maybe wh shouldn't be surprised if it all happens with Bachmann in the way that has recently happened with the Locomotion/Rails 'Precedent' and V2 mdels (although teh latter was known to be under development).

[Class 158 productions]

I’m in 2 minds, I’d love to see some new toolings and liveries on existing toolings, but then I also want them to focus on already pledged stuff. Many things announced 3/4 years ago still aren’t out. The quarterly announcement doesn’t seem to be doing it’s job, as we are still seeing delays (although understandable at this time not always bachmanns fault at all). 

[Butler Henderson]

7 hours ago, 89A said:

Catalogues are a good record of what has been released 

 

Except they are not; invariably models get cancelled or changed. The current Hornby catalogue is already out of date due to changes to the Transport for Wales Mk4s. And then there are models which are missed for whatever reason, the still awaited APT is not in the current catalogue so no doubt there will be a thought at some time in the future that it was released in 2020 because that is when it is in the catalogue.

[The Johnster]

I think they had a deadly reputation for long lead times and have done a lot of work to address this perception, firstly by the '3 month notices' which have been reasonably accurate in predicting when items are going to be in the shops, diverting our attention from the deeper problem, that of having to play catch up with previously announced items that have been repeatedly delayed.  I'd be surprised to see any major new annoucements this year, but possibly we may see stuff that involves relatively minor alterations to toolings, such as for example pannier tanks without top feeds (Tomparryharry and me have been lobbying for this for ages). 

 

There will be brand new locos announced, but not this year I suspect (more than happy to be proved wrong).  New body toolings that can sit on existing chassis will cost less to develop and be quicker to produce; 74xx, Midland 3F 0-6-0 tender loco, and probably more I can't think of offhand. even a 2721 or 1854, either of which I'd spring for!  I reckon Hornby and Dapol have between them scuppered any chance of a revived Bachmann 43xx or Manor, which in turn precludes the possibility of Bachmann entering the large prairie game, despite there being low and medium hanging fruit on that tree (3150, 81xx, Collett 31xx)

 

Pardon my GW bias, I can't help it.  I'd like to see an 0-4-2 mech that could be used for a 48xx/58xx and a 517, and could perhaps be reversed to be used  for a Metro, but I have no interest in buying any of these locos, which are just out of period for me.  In the GW field, that leaves the 2251, not in current production AFAIK and with elements of it's tooling dating back to the Mainline model.  I would expect this when the backlog is cleared with a chassis based on the 94xx one.

 

I also reckon that more steam outline Bachmann will use the 94xx type coreless motor and gears, with the feed wires coming up at the rear of the gearbox as it drives the rear wheelset, in fact that coreless motors will become the general norm in all RTR.  This is because the manufacturers of small electric motors are producing more of them and less of cored motors, as they are cheaper to produce I am told.  This could well lead to the development of more 'between the frames' detail and possibly working inside motion!

[tomparryharry]

I would surmise that we've seen the last of Western releases from the Bachmann stable. It's very, very difficult to scan something, as most of the historical candidates have either already chosen, or, sad to say, scrapped off .  One shining example 'might be' a Bulldog class. Some of these locomotives had very long service life, from Edwardian to post-war periods. Bachmann have already covered a lot of ground already with the Earls, so the logic is already there. 

 

The South East & Chatham 0-4-4 T  bears a striking resemblance to the newly released  Midland 1P. It's such a pretty model:  pity that it's Midland..... Panniers... Hornby have claimed the 2721 'as their own', so no dice, or a head to head....  EFE?  18" Austerity, anyone? There are literally dozens of examples that EFE can turn out, without resorting to spurious liveries. The tooling for the  14xx-48xx tank locomotive is still extant, so it just needs an ashpan putting on, and sorting out the gearing.  And, take off that bl**dy awful top-feed, whilst we're about it..... Talking of top feeds, I do wish Bachmann would release an early-version pannier,  sans top feed.  I reckon Bachmann keep them on, just to wind me up....

 

But, an outside bet! coming up on the outside, an NG13, or NG16 Garrat.  Now, that would be something else.... As for sound, you could get the entire New York Philharmonic in there, with enough for a big bass drum... 

 

 

[Legend]

EFE Western? One of the older Heljan locos  to fit in with previous Hymek and 58 .

[Class 158 productions]

4 minutes ago, Legend said:

EFE Western? One of the older Heljan locos  to fit in with previous Hymek and 58 .

And to compete with Dapol, so very likely. 

[Global]

Would be great if they’ve secretly been working on some new Mk2b/c coaches, although how long were the 2fs from announcement to production?! 
 

I guess even if they are working on them secretly, it’s gonna be nearer 2025 before they’d make a 3 monthly announcement! 

[adb968008]

My bets is a few gap fillers.

 

Scr 24/1, 25/0 , 45/1, 47593 and a Rog 57.

 

Bit hard to guess with steam, maybe an 84xxx or a 77xxx.

 

Would love Gatex stock, they are closest to bingo for tooling it, but they have nothing to pull it. Similar story for Anglia DBSOs, but they are best placed to do them. DRS DBSO would be nice.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by adb968008

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I would surmise that we've seen the last of Western releases from the Bachmann stable. It's very, very difficult to scan something, as most of the historical candidates have either already chosen, or, sad to say, scrapped off .  One shining example 'might be' a Bulldog class. Some of these locomotives had very long service life, from Edwardian to post-war periods. Bachmann have already covered a lot of ground already with the Earls, so the logic is already there. 

 

 

Have to disagree.

 

I happen to think one of these will appear eventually, even though I expect they were only ever green. 

A BR black one with red backed number plates and early crest on the tender would look really nice Hornby, and the pregrouping versions might look good with those 4 and 6 wheel coaches even though they were principally coal engines.

 

Wonder if "Johnster" would be tempted.