Coalorsdale - signalling help / advice wanted.

[Harlequin]

Upper quadrant? No finial? I thought it was supposed to be a BR(WR) line...

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Hmm signal may not be as original as. I previously assumed. It is indeed a gwr branch that was later br (wr).

 

I've just had a look through my photos and they all seem to be upper quadrant. Must have been added by the trust after becoming a heritage line. 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Here is an original photo a few hundred yards down the line from Where I took my photos. I was hoping I could use my photos as they're 4k so I can see how the ladders mount etc. But it looks like I shall have to use generic wr signals or try and find some higher quality original photos. 

[Harlequin]

The heritage people have been a bit naughty there unless there’s some complex reason that justifies upper quadrant signals on that line. (These things are always possible.)

Proper GWR lower quadrant signals seem much more appropriate for your layout, though. The Ratio kits and/or the Dapol versions should do the job very nicely.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The heritage people have been a bit naughty there unless there’s some complex reason that justifies upper quadrant signals on that line. (These things are always possible.)

Proper GWR lower quadrant signals seem much more appropriate for your layout, though. The Ratio kits and/or the Dapol versions should do the job very nicely.

I suspect it might have been all the heritage folk could lay their hands on at a sensible price.  Not the first time that preservationists have got it wrong and I doubt it will be the last.  As far as the layout is concerned it ought really to have (G)WR lower quadrants if it is representinga Western line that carried on in WR control.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Went on another walk today and double checked the signals. There is one wr signal in the yard. It is indeed round post with a ladder, I think I shall add a ladder to a ratio post. 

(I'm not sure where they've just moved that saddle tank from but I think it's been sat rusting under a tree waiting for a new boiler and complete restoration) 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I've ordered several ratio signal kits. 

 

In the meantime I've bent up and filed a bit of rail. 

 

Does this give a good enough representation of a catch point for the end of the sidings? It's not installed properly yet, or even finished. I think it's certainly better than nothing. 

 

obviously I'll make something much more comprehensive at the bottom of the Incline. 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I've ordered several ratio signal kits. 

 

In the meantime I've bent up and filed a bit of rail. 

 

Does this give a good enough representation of a catch point for the end of the sidings? It's not installed properly yet, or even finished. I think it's certainly better than nothing. 

 

obviously I'll make something much more comprehensive at the bottom of the Incline. 

Spot on job for a dummy WR single tongue trap.  the bottom of the incline would be double tongue (i.e. two switch rails) leading into a sand drag - which could simply be sand burying the rails in a timber channel.  Have a look at this thread particularly Mr Mallard's pic of the one at Didcot which is just what you want  although yours will need to be longer and well clear of the mainline-

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102373-sand-drags/

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Finally finished my uni exams for this term. 

 

I've started with the ground signals, these will be fixed in the horizontal position. 

 

 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

The shunt signals are done, not painted perfectly but they'll do. 

 

As for placement I'm not to sure. I've put one either side of the crossover. And I k ow I need one before the trap point on the exit to each set of sidings.  Where does the shunt signal for the entrance to the sidings go? 

 

Option a 

 

Option b

 

Or somewhere else? 

[SZ]

1 hour ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Or somewhere else? 

 

At the toe of the points, just before the rails diverge

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

21 minutes ago, SZ said:

 

At the toe of the points, just before the rails diverge

Is that on the lhs or rhs of the track. If it's on the left then the closest I can get is option a, so the signal doesn't get fouled by anything on the mainline or crossover. 

[Harlequin]

9 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Is that on the lhs or rhs of the track. If it's on the left then the closest I can get is option a, so the signal doesn't get fouled by anything on the mainline or crossover. 

On the LHS for the direction of movement being signalled. Remember to leave clearance for the rolling stock (that is, offset a bit further from the track).

Look at your Coalbrookedale signalling diagrams on the first page.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Harlequin said:

On the LHS for the direction of movement being signalled. Remember to leave clearance for the rolling stock (that is, offset a bit further from the track).

Look at your Coalbrookedale signalling diagrams on the first page.

 

However one of them is going to have to go on the right hand side because the trailing crossover is in the way on the other side.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I've gotten the rest of the signals made and painted. I've also added leds and will be adding servos. 

 

I've just balanced them in place to show where I'm thinking of installing them. I shall be burying the bases in ballast. All their locations are as discussed however any final hints for exact placement are welcome

 

 

One either end of the station

 

 

 

 

One at the end of the viaduct stopping incoming traffic if there is something standing in the platform or if shunting is occurring. 

 

 

..... 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

...  A taller signal at the bottom of the Incline. (there is no room the other side of the bridge and I've checked the tall post means it can be seen from atleast a third of the way up the incline.) 

 

 

The junction signal for the incline branch to the works. (ignore the dummy point Motor visible in this photo it shall be removed) 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Horsehay Railway Modeller

[RailWest]

The 'junction signal' needs to be in rear of the points to which it applies. In which case the bracket you have there almost certainly will not be visible to an approaching train.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I'm going on the assumption there would be another signal before the tunnel warning of which way this junction arm is set. 

 

 

[bécasse]

57 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I'm going on the assumption there would be another signal before the tunnel warning of which way this junction arm is set. 

 

 

But that isn't the way that it is done, and even if the signal was back in rear of the points the diverging route signal arm would be a small "subsidiary route" one. In practice, that signal would be back beyond the tunnel with a track circuit locking the facing point lock on the point.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

From reading other threads on here. It looks like there are several examples where a junction sits with the blades very close to if not inside the tunnel mouth and therefore the signal is after the point so it can be seen from inside the tunnel, with a repeater signal at the entrance to the tunnel or inside the tunnel itself. 

 

The left hand route does have a shorter post although the arm is the same size, its the best I could do. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

If I proposed putting a signal where you have it shown the Inspection Officer would be questioning what I had been smoking.

 

When there isn't room to put a signal between the tunnel and the points there isn't going to be one, it will be in or on approach to the tunnel. 

If it isn't possible to see the signal then a banner repeater would be placed inside the tunnel or on the approach side to it.

I can think of cases in real life where the points are close to the tunnel mouth and the signal is inside the tunnel although it would not be a full arm semaphore in that instance.

In the case of points where the Facing Point Lock is mechanically held by a locking bar the signal would be about 60 feet from the points. If the FPL is held by a track circuit then the closest the signal could be is by the rail joint at the toe of the points although it would be most likely at least six feet further back and preferably 120 feet.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

 

 

 

 

One at the end of the viaduct stopping incoming traffic if there is something standing in the platform or if shunting is occurring. 

 

 

..... 

This one is definitely in the wrong place for Western sighting and siting.  It needs to be much nearer to the crossover -  as a simple reference put it just past the last bush on the opposite side and it needs to be on the opposite side of both lines so that it can be sighted on the curve.

 

Under the Block Begulations this signal will become the Clearing Point but even so a train must not be allowed to approach it if shunting is taking place in advance of it (i.e. at the station).  However shunting etc can take place after an approaching train has been brought to a stand at the signal. 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Like this? 

 

 

Does that mean if shunting is already occurring then the train is held in the previous block (offscene in my case). 

But I can bring a train up to here and then start shunting afterwards? 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Best I can do is before the last bush so it can be seen around the curve

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

This one is definitely in the wrong place for Western sighting and siting.  It needs to be much nearer to the crossover -  as a simple reference put it just past the last bush on the opposite side and it needs to be on the opposite side of both lines so that it can be sighted on the curve.

I think that the ganger would be 'encouraged' to do some vegetation management on the trees at the end of the sidings.

 

1 hour ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Does that mean if shunting is already occurring then the train is held in the previous block (offscene in my case). 

But I can bring a train up to here and then start shunting afterwards? 

You will have a signal in the rear of that one at one end of the tunnel or the other. The Block Regulations (and box local instructions if necessary) would define that a train could be accepted up to the outermost signal provided that the line is clear up to the second signal and no shunting is taking place in advance of the second signal. When the train reached the outermost home signal it could be cleared which tells the driver that the line is clear as far as the next signal but expect to find that at danger. The signalman would not clear a signal before the train arrives at it unless he had Line Clear from the box in advance. 

Once the train arrives at the outermost home signal then draws up to the signal protecting the crossover and comes to a stand the crossover and siding points can be operated for shunting. 

This would generally be enforced by the interlocking requiring the points in advance of the second home signal being locked normal by pulling the lever for the outermost signal.