Mol's MSC Layout: "The Boysnope Bump"

[Mol_PMB]

Some of you may have seen my threads about constructing a locomotive and some wagons in 7mm scale on a Manchester Ship Canal Railway theme.

 

I am starting to have some musings about a layout. It's early days - don't expect to see any sawdust flying for a few months yet!

But I've seen some excellent small industrial layouts on this forum that have inspired me to start thinking, and I thought I would capture some of those thoughts here.

 

Firstly, there are two possible spaces available, neither of which are very big for an O gauge layout.

• The smaller but more conveniently located space (i.e. less other stuff to re-home and would fit the room better) has tightly defined dimensions of 1750mm or 5'9" long, and 450mm or 18" wide.  Access would be only from the front.

• The larger but less convenient space is an absolute maximum of 2650mm or 8'8". Realistically it would be a challenge to use every last inch of that owing to radiator, windowsill, curtains etc, but the layout could be between 8' and 8'6" long. Widthwise that one is a bit more flexible, but since access will only be from the front it seems unwise to make the layout more than 2' from front to back (especially since I am using 3-link couplings so there will be some leaning over to couple and uncouple).

Neither space has any additional room for a fiddle yard. I like layouts where the railway is a small part of the overall scene but I'm not sure that will be possible this time!

 

Ideally I'd like to have some 'play value' with the layout, and my thoughts turned to the 'Inglenook Sidings' concept of a simple shunting layout. I expect many of you are familiar with this plan, but there's a comprehensive description of it here:

http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/sw-inglenook.html

Having done the calculations on the length of rolling stock, turnouts, clearing points etc., I just can't make this fit in the smaller space. However, it will fit in the larger space lengthwise and there is plenty of width to make the layout feel more spacious.

I am now considering four possible options:

(1) in the smaller space, essentially a working diorama with little play value

(2) in the smaller space, an attempt to make a shunting layout more compact than 'Inglenook Sidings' but still with some operational interest

(3) in the larger space, a basic 'Inglenook Sidings' concept with a relatively spacious feel

(4) in the larger space, something more complex than 'Inglenook Sidings' making best use of the area for tracks but feeling more cramped.

 

In my mind, the MSC Railway provides at least three different scenarios that are modellable in a fairly small space:

• Quayside lines, often 3 closely-spaced parallel tracks with crossovers, tightly constrained between cranes, warehouses and ships (note: a scale ship would fill the entire board area!). However, in reality the sidings were only shunted twice a day (while the dockers were on meal breaks) and most of the activity would have been with the cranes. I'm not really interested in crane modelling! The warehouses were very consistent (all built at the same time) and a bit dull. Coupling and uncoupling wagons among the cramped buildings and cranes wouldn't be that easy, and without space for a ship the centrepiece of the theme is a bit absent. I'm not quite convinced by this option.

 

 

• Trafford Park, complex roadside tracks with sidings and branches into factories. This offers more scope for a realistically cramped layout with a variety of traffic and shunting moves. Some of the factories had their own locos as well as the MSC ones. It's a very urban/industrial environment, not at all 'pretty'. Trafford Park is also within a couple of miles of my house but I can't say my walks through it have been pleasant experiences, it's still a dirty and ugly place, now full of HGVs instead of goods trains.

 

• The MSC 'Through Route' which ran along the canalside for about half its length, mostly through quite rural surroundings serving some industries along the way. Many times I have walked along the abandoned railway trackbed along this part of the canal and there are some interesting and modellable features (e.g. the bridge in the second photo below, which is within a couple of miles of my house). I am drawn to this option because I like the more rural feel, I enjoy modelling the natural world more than heavy industry, and I think it would be more appealing to 'normals' visiting my house. The 'Through Route' option is associated in my mind with pleasant walks and discovering remains of the railway, but to capture this would require fewer tracks in a given space so perhaps it isn't ideal given the space constraints.

 

Considering again the four options:

(1) in the smaller space, essentially a working diorama with little play value

(2) in the smaller space, an attempt to make a shunting layout more compact than 'Inglenook Sidings' but still with some operational interest

(3) in the larger space, a basic 'Inglenook Sidings' concept with a relatively spacious feel

(4) in the larger space, something more complex than 'Inglenook Sidings' making best use of the area for tracks but feeling more cramped.

 

The 'Through Route' rural option could suit options (1) and (3) quite well.

Options (2) and (4) I think would only be suitable for the Quayside or Trafford Park themes, with a preference for Trafford Park.

I'm not sure if Option (2) is actually possible. The space might just be too small to sustain operational interest.

 

What do people think?

Does anyone have experience of very small shunting layouts (e.g. 6' long in O or 3' long in OO)?

Can you inspire me with what you have achieved in this sort of space?

Does the additional length available in the larger space make such a big improvement to the operational interest that I should just forget the use of the smaller space?

 

P.S. It has just occurred to me that with some surgery of the adjacent built-in bookcase, the smaller space could potentially have a 2' or 600mm long single track non-scenic extension at one end (i.e. a headshunt).

Does this make all the difference to the usability of this space?

 

Cheers,

Mol

Edited March 17, 2021 by Mol_PMB
thread rename

[doilum]

Assuming that the book case is not of huge monetary or sentimental value this is the way to go. You might even be able to install a sector plate capable of holding a shunter and three wagons. The trick is to have somewhere to play. You could include buildings or scenic features that eventually become recycled into a larger layout. 

The bridge and water main are begging to be modelled.

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, many thanks! A sector plate is a brilliant idea - not only do I gain the extra headshunt space but I also save the length of a point. 

 

I have rather fallen for that bridge too, so much so that I have been out with a friend and measured it all up. It spans a branch off the Canal that was the former course of the River Irwell. 

In reality there was a quay on that canal branch with a siding from the MSC Railway (and in earlier times a narrow gauge railway for which there definitely isn’t room!)

On the opposite side of the bridge was a passing loop, followed in quick succession by sidings for Morgan Wallwork Sawmills and the CWS Margarine Factory. So there may well be scope to combine some of those in the layout. 

[doilum]

I have done a couple of pipe bridges on Houghton Street. One crossed the rails and disguises the exit to the fiddle yard. The other crosses the beck and is the full nine yards with 18ba nuts and bolts on the flanges. I think I would rather do a dozen tipper wagons than repeat that task.

[Mol_PMB]

I have been playing with the tape measure and the CAD to try and fit things in.

Assuming I set the woodworms going into the adjacent bookcase and make space for a sector plate, it is then possible to make a workable layout that meets the 'Inglenook Sidings' concept within the smaller but more convenient space.

That is: two sidings which fit 3 wagons, a headshunt (in this case a sector plate) which fits 3 wagons and a loco, and a 'main line' which fits at least 5 wagons.

I have drawn this layout with 1 turnout. It would be possible to do it with only half a turnout (the crossing end) if the sector plate had an intermediate position, but I think that's less likely to be reliable.

Note that brown hatched areas cannot be used.

I have also managed to fit in the bridge I like, which is prototypically on the 'main line' portion. It is drawn to full scale, I haven't tried to shorten it although that could possibly add some flexibility in the layout elsewhere.

Leaving out the bridge entirely would give many more options, but I like the bridge... In front of the track, the ground slopes down to canal water level, but there isn't space to model the canal itself except maybe a few reeds along the front edge. However, there is a substantial area of water under the bridge.

 

Here is a 1930s map of the location. You can see the MSC Railway running diagonally along the bank of the canal (bottom middle to top right) and bridging over the former course of the River Irwell on the aforementioned bridge. There really was one siding in this location which lasted into the 1950s at least. My modelling period is mid 1960s, so I am stretching things a little with the second siding as well.

Another nice feature at this location which is still there today is the passenger ferry (and it is still free, though its operating hours are occasional and erratic). The jetty for that would be on the front of the layout toward the right hand end of the scenic portion, with the footpath running across the sidings.

However, the extensive narrow gauge excrement railway shown on the map (definitely no room for that) had gone by the late 1930s. Perhaps I could imagine a new industry had sprung up on the site that required another siding, though there is no space to actually model such an industry.

 

 

Also attached is a pdf of my scale drawing of the bridge itself based on measurements.

 

At the moment I'm feeling that while this is possible it does feel a bit squeezed, and I don't have any satisfactory ideas for blending into a backscene given the shortage of space.

 

I may well sketch up an 'urban' Trafford Park option within the same space, which could have a more complex track layout.

 

BOYSNOPE.pdf

[Mol_PMB]

Here is a roughed out alternative in the same space based on the premise of a Trafford Park theme and fitting in as much track as possible!

(attached are a few photos from my exploration of remains in Trafford Park this morning)

 

The sector plate now has 3 positions and there is a double track running the length of the visible part of the layout, as was common in Trafford Park.

A crossover on this allows run-round moves, though only of a couple of wagons.

Two sidings serve a low-relief industry along the backscene, while a third siding runs partly in front of the sector plate to serve another low-relief industry.

 

Other than the low-relief factory buildings the layout would be very flat and the surface mostly paved. I envisage a road running alongside the double track, though it would have to be a bit narrower than many of the roads in Trafford Park.

Quite a contrast to the Boysnope option where a lot of the scenery is green and below track level.

However, the Trafford Park option offers a lot more play value and it suits this location in the house much better I think.

The Boysnope option felt more cramped even though there was less in it, whereas Trafford Park feels 'right' being cramped.

Here's a tiny snippet of a map of Trafford Park showing the typical maze of tracks!

 

 

[woodenhead]

Given the space you intend to build this in, why not do both the through route and the Trafford Park cobblestoned warehousing.

 

I feel you are attached to that bridge, doing Trafford Park will give you a flat layout with no real features other than cobblestones and warehouses, the through route has the track raised, you need to do a water feature, a bank feature plus the track and backscene.

 

Doing both, you just need somewhere to plonk the other baseboard when you want a change of scene - at least the stock and engines are consistent.

[Mol_PMB]

You're right, I do like the bridge and it is a nice feature. But I think what I like more about the bridge location is that it's on the through route and is rural scenery with a canal bank below track level. I find that much more attractive than the flat grimy Trafford Park option.

This has led my mind to a third option which I will draw up now.

(not getting much modelling done but planning is fun too, and it was good to get out for a walk in dry weather for once!)

 

Edit: I also like the idea of having swappable boards!

Edited January 16, 2021 by Mol_PMB

[Moxy]

Fascinating to see there is still track in Trafford Park, it's over 30 years ago since I was last there, and I think the railway was disused when I was saw it in 1988.

 

[Mol_PMB]

7 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Fascinating to see there is still track in Trafford Park, it's over 30 years ago since I was last there, and I think the railway was disused when I was saw it in 1988.

 

A preservation society wanting to extending their line could turn up on Trafford Park with a hiab truck, a few tools and some hi-vis vests to look official. They could have 500 yards of track easily, and they would probably get thanked for tidying up the place!

[montyburns56]

39 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Fascinating to see there is still track in Trafford Park, it's over 30 years ago since I was last there, and I think the railway was disused when I was saw it in 1988.

 

 

They did refurbish it in the 90s I think and there was still some regular traffic until about 2000. I photographed what remained in 2008 and so much of it has been lifted since then and a lot of the trackbed has been taken over by the businesses that it passed in front of that or has been built on.

[Mol_PMB]

OK, here is a third version!

 

This is canalside again, on the through route. It gets away from the constraint of the bridge (which is nice but really too big for this space). However, the track is still on the canal bank, which forms the front of the layout as it drops down several inches to the water level. This is a primarily a green layout rather than a grimy one.

Here I have got a fairly simple track layout with both the points on the visible section. There is still enough length for the 'Inglenook Sidings' geometry with a bit of space to spare.

I have therefore been able to consider a different variant of the sector plate - one which gives me just a little bit of hidden storage space. The second track could hold another loco and a couple of extra wagons, which would allow some more variety without the hand of god descending.

 

 

Now the track layout doesn't look quite as interesting as some of the previous options but it is prototypical of two potential locations on the through route near me:

(1) Morgan Wallworks Sawmills (between Irlam and Barton, not far from the aforementioned bridge), the photo is from 'Railways of the Manchester Ship Canal:

 

(2) Lancashire Tar Distillers, Cadishead (a couple of miles further west):

 

In both cases there were two loops alongside the main line, with industrial buildings (which could be modelled as a low relief) immediately behind.

 

I think I quite like this option.

 

 

 

[doilum]

For a completely alternative approach take a look at Gordon and Maggie Gravet's Arun Quay. The " river" illusion needs to be seen. The misty murky background is Manchester on two days from three.

[Mol_PMB]

Oh, after a bit of googling I see what you mean. Turn it all around so we're looking towards the canal, but it's not actually visible because it's lower down and the far bank is shrouded in mist.

 

The attached photos were taken from that viewpoint on the section of canal close to me (including that bridge again!)

Again, from 'Railways of the Manchester Ship Canal' by Don Thorpe.

 

Interesting idea, I will give it some thought!

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

Incidentally this is something I put together a few weeks ago on the Barton to Irlam section (the bit of the canal nearest me) to help me get the feel for what it was like 50+ years ago.

 

From top to bottom, the canalside industries served by MSC Railway sidings are:

• Barton Locks
• Manchester Corporation Boysnope Wharf (narrow gauge railway in green closed by WWII)
• Passing loop, operational only
• Morgan Wallwork Sawmills
• CWS Margarine Works (a trainset in its own right, but rail usage was much reduced by the 1960s)
• MSC engineers department (canal maintenance)
• Irlam Locks
• CWS Soap and Candle factory (and link to CLC Liverpool-Manchester main line, link removed by mid 1960s)

I chickened out when I got to the CLC main line bridge because it gets incredibly complicated. There's the steelworks, Partington coaling basin, and then the other CLC bridge (line from Glazebrook to Stockport).

Beyond that there are two tar distillers and then the steelworks and ship canal waste tips, and eventually Latchford.

[doilum]

The passing loop sounds interesting. Add a drop off siding and lots of micro detailing.

[Ralphrob48]

Some photos there that remind me of my younger days. Partington Coaling Basin was my regular bike ride and often went there seeing the ships being loaded with wagon after wagon of coal. Really interesting watching wagons being tipped into the hold of ships. Good to see photos of some of the MSC wagons. Just wish we had digital cameras in those days. The only photos I have of that area at that time are of ships sadly,

 

Ralph

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Ralphrob48 said:

Some photos there that remind me of my younger days. Partington Coaling Basin was my regular bike ride and often went there seeing the ships being loaded with wagon after wagon of coal. Really interesting watching wagons being tipped into the hold of ships. Good to see photos of some of the MSC wagons. Just wish we had digital cameras in those days. The only photos I have of that area at that time are of ships sadly,

 

Ralph

 

 

Thanks! I wish I had been able to witness that. The nearest I've got is this photo, ships moored at Partington are pretty rare now!

 

I'm interested in the ships too!

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I've been mulling over the layout ideas, and I think the key is to keep it small and simple.

I confess that my past modelling history is littered with complex layouts that never got finished. In recent years I've not really had much time for modelling.

I've got more time now in lockdown but that won't last for ever. So if I'm going to build something in the short term it ought to be simple and quick, so I'll actually finish it! Or at least get it working and with some degree of scenery.

 

If I'm still enthusastic and have some spare time, then I can follow it with something more ambitious. It's worth keeping that in mind and putting aside the more complex, time-consuming ideas for the future.

 

With that in mind, I think the third layout plan is the best. Perhaps with just a simple headshunt rather than the sector plate to start with.

It would be one main board 5'9" x 18" which should be practical to handle if built using lightweight techniques. Plus a bolt-on headshunt/sector plate.

I will start to put together a better drawing this week.

 

I probably have enough used track for it left over from previous projects, though it may be nicer to start with new. How is the worldwide model track shortage going - can Peco supply track at present?

My very basic and out-of-date dcc controller would be good enough.

I've also got a fair bit of wood in stock (it's been in the garage for 10 years) but it's mostly thicker ply so probably not ideal. Buying wood in these times might be the stumbling block to making a start!

I'll also have to negotiate with some friends to reclaim some of my tools that they've had for decades, like my static grass machine!

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

A search of the darker recesses of the garage has found about 6 yards of Peco Streamline bullhead track, previously used to some extent but in adequate condition for re-use. It is probably 25 years old, but the quantity is sufficient for my needs.

I have also found five Marcway 48" radius points, a mix of LH and RH, that have never been used. That's more than I need, and they will be an ideal geometry for an industrial railway.

I have a big roll of 1/8" thick cork sheet.

As expected, the supply of thin plywood is inadequate, though there is plenty of thicker stuff and lengths of softwood.

 

I will go back out and keep looking for useful bits and pieces...

 

 

[Barclay]

This is looking fascinating - I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you do. I love the MSC railway, albeit from afar and mostly thanks to Don Thorpe's superb book. I would have liked to do it myself if my loco building was a little more disciplined. Personally I find the Trafford Park images the most interesting though, with the line so close to buildings and roads, threading its way between them all. The Wild Swan book on the Slough Estates Railway is also full of inspiration.

[Sandhole]

2 hours ago, Barclay said:

This is looking fascinating - I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you do. I love the MSC railway, albeit from afar and mostly thanks to Don Thorpe's superb book. I would have liked to do it myself if my loco building was a little more disciplined. Personally I find the Trafford Park images the most interesting though, with the line so close to buildings and roads, threading its way between them all. The Wild Swan book on the Slough Estates Railway is also full of inspiration.

Roaming  the'Park' during the mid to late 70's, coloured the industrial level of numerous train sets my dear Friend Mike and I have built since then.
I wanted to recreate the cramped nature of the site. The double track 'main line' with umpteen cross-overs. The beauty of the double track was, that wagons could be left outside small industry yards for pickup.
The pointwork was 'advanced' with crossings, three ways, double junctions as well as ridiculously sharp curves off the main line.
I only saw steam on Trafford Park twice as a little boy.
On Westinghouse Rd, I think, where the main line ran down the centre of the road. I remember an Austerity once and a Hudswell 'Ship Canal Tank' the second time.

[woodenhead]

Then perhaps you would both like this thread - 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I have recently been having some very interesting discussion on the Industrial Railway Society egroup and I have gained a lot more information on the activities of the tar distilleries connected to the MSC Railway, including their own internal operations and interchanges with the MSC.

While I am still favouring a simple 'shunting plank' layout to start with, as presented in the third version above, I think the theme may be the interchange sidings between the MSC Railway and the Lancashire Tar Distillers site at Cadishead.

I now have a good basis of information for a short rake of tar tankers of various types which would be ideal, alongside the MSC wagons already built.

Potentially a future layout in a larger space could include the tar distillery's internal railway and locomotives as well.

[sir douglas]

the narrow gauge at Boysnope wharf is on my long list of places i would like to model one day. its all in this book