Mol's MSC Layout: "The Boysnope Bump"

[Mol_PMB]

8 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

the narrow gauge at Boysnope wharf is on my long list of places i would like to model one day. its all in this book

 

Indeed, I have been using that book to plan some of my walks on both Chat Moss and Carrington Moss.

Immediately opposite on the other side of the canal was another narrow-gauge railway associated with the excrement business, which also features in a book:

 

This aerial photo of Barton Locks shows parts of both the narrow-gauge railways in addition to the standard-gauge MSC Railway:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW042578

It also shows one of the sludge disposal vessels on the canal.

 

[woodenhead]

That bottom image of a loco unloading something in a field looks ominously like Broadway - I thought the sludge just went upstream to Liverpool (first by boat, then by pipeline).

 

I know Broadway was the dumping ground for waste products from Barton Power station but I wonder if the little railway also added to that content.

 

I am pleased to say Davyhulme no longer handles it's sludge in such a manner, it all being sealed (except when it's not and it really gets the local social media into a meltdown).

[Mol_PMB]

At Davyhulme the railway was mostly used for constructing and maintaining the filter beds, and for bringing in chemicals (lime etc) and fuel from the wharves.

The railways at Carrington and Boysnope (in the other book) were used for spreading night soil on the moss.

All three of my local 'Sh!t Railways' were fascinating systems integrated with canal, shipping and main-line railway transport, and despite their real-life purpose would make wonderful models.

Now that we have DCC movement, light and sound, the next step is surely an accurate rendition of the smells associated with our prototypes. That could be even more popular with the neighbouring exhibitors...

 

There were other loco-worked narrow-gauge railways in the vicinity (Eccles, Urmston, Irlam, Trafford Park), with traffics including peat, sand, clay for bricks, concrete products.

 

 

 

[5050]

You could possibly consider my 'Enigma Engineering' concept?  Should fit fine into the space you've got and the industries could mirror the ones served by MSC lines.  No absolute need for a fiddle yard.  My American version (Peforia Narrows) doesn't have one and it is no detriment to the operating potential.

 

I first became aware of the MSC railway when going with my Dad to the timber and veneer suppliers (can't remember the name) when he was buying venners for his furniture factory.  The railway was along the road outside and I was very confused by a loco which had a number that didn't appear in the Western Region Ian Allan ABC.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks! That does look a good alternative trackplan, and a super layout too.

I'll sketch something out based on that plan. Cheers for the idea.

[Mol_PMB]

A step forward today is that I now have some plywood for the layout board!

 

The sun is shining in Manchester, which is a relief after the rains. I’m still looking out over the village cricket pool opposite though. 

[woodenhead]

Village lol, I know that place, I've been in the clubhouse for a party or two over the years, and that building at the back, eight years of parent's evenings.

 

At least that pool isn't the chest deep stuff on the Meadows.

[5050]

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks! That does look a good alternative trackplan, and a super layout too.

I'll sketch something out based on that plan. Cheers for the idea.

Don't forget that siding capacities are important for the 'problem' to work properly.  If you can get to many in each siding and loop then it'll be to easy!  I made sure that each siding would only take 2 wagons (all short 4 wheelers) and the loop would take 4 - including the brake van.  On 'Peforia Narrows' all rolling stock is 40' including the S1 style switcher locos.  The loop will take 3 of them.  You could adapt this as necessary for you with 3 in each siding but then you'd need to have more wagons on the layout at a time.

[Mol_PMB]

Hmm, what is this so-called 'brake van' of which you speak? The MSC Railway in Manchester had no truck with them. Far too much extra weight to pull around, more shunting to do, and why bother paying the wages of another man? Any runaways would simply be arrested by the engine of the following train!

[The MSC Railway did use brake vans on the Stanlow-Ellesmere Port-Eastham section. But anything that looks like a toad is actually a breakdown van to deal with the inevitable derailments and collisions that resulted from not having any brake vans!]

 

 

 

 

[Sandhole]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

A step forward today is that I now have some plywood for the layout board!

 

The sun is shining in Manchester, which is a relief after the rains. I’m still looking out over the village cricket pool opposite though. 

SMEG!!
Where in Manc are you?
I'm near Alexandra Park/Chorlton, so I have no flooding. The Mersey is interesting though.
I have showers now too. Alia, one of my cats came in damn quick.

[Mol_PMB]

Just now, Sandhole said:

SMEG!!
Where in Manc are you?
I'm near Alexandra Park/Chorlton, so I have no flooding. The Mersey is interesting though.
I have showers now too. Alia, one of my cats came in damn quick.

I'm in Urmston.

 

The meadows here are badly flooded as woodenhead notes, but that's what meadows are for.

The former William Wroe golf course is also under deep water and hopefully that will remind the authorities why it shouldn't be covered in houses!

 

The flooding on the opposite side of the road from me is rainfall with nowhere to go, rather than the swollen Mersey.

[Mol_PMB]

Before starting to cut wood, I have been musing on track layouts again, based on various inspirations on the forum.

I'm pretty set on a canalside location, but there are two compromises to be made:

(1) operational interest vs the layout not feeling too 'full'

(2) operational interest vs having some basis in a prototypical location

 

Here is the basic starting point:

Note that the brown shaded areas are not usable - I will be carrying out surgery on the fitted furniture to make space for the sector plate but there are limits!

 

I think the sector plate provides some useful flexibility but crucially it is only long enough for a loco and two wagons (and cannot be any longer owing to the constraints of the furniture).

This means that if I want to shunt 3 wagons at a time (a fundamental of the Inglenook concept, and underlying much operational interest) then the sector plate alone cannot be the complete headshunt. I need another short length of track before the king points so that the third wagon will fit. The main purpose of the sector plate in this plan is to allow an extra loco or couple of wagons to be stored off-scene.

The above plan achieves this and is basically an Inglenook with a relatively spacious feel in the limited space available. The front of the board is the canal bank and the level drops down to the water. It is basically a representation of one end of the loops that served Morgan Wallwork timber, and the backscene could replicate those big sheds and stacks of timber:

Now, in reality all these sidings had loops (passing or run-round) and I have mused over including one of those. There is an operational attraction in having a loco arrive hauling a train, do its shunt, and leave hauling it back the other way. The problem is that the loco then ends up trapped at the back of the sector plate. Also, if the train is more than 2 wagons, the sector plate can't then be moved (for example to allow another loco to be used). So I'm not sure that a run-round loop is really an advantage - it takes up a lot of space which can't be used for leaving wagons in, and the consequence is that the layout looks more cramped. 

 

Let's look at the other location that I particularly like and I am building some wagons for: the Lancashire Tar Distillers plant at Cadishead. I know I keep using this photo of Gordon Edgar (linked from Flickr) but it illustrates the feel I'm after with the canal bank, MSC main line, and sidings serving an industry:

 

Now, the real track layout here was much more complicated, here's an approximation of the track centrelines based on 1960s maps:

The MSC Railway main line runs along the bottom, with a loop. The photo above was taken at the right-hand end of this map, looking to the left, with the loco on the loop adjacent to the MSC main line. Beyond that are more loops and sidings, which I think were mostly operated by the Lancashire Tar Distillers loco. Probably the MSC loco would have put the wagons for interchange on one of the middle loops, and the LTD loco could have then done all the shunting without impinging on the MSC main line. The liquid handling facilities were in the separate loops at the top.

That is very much too large and complicated to represent in the space I have available! But I was wondering if I could capture some aspects of it.

 

For example this version has a revised layout with two points on the 'main line' like the right-hand end of the map above, and a short headshunt adjacent. Because I have had to reduce the total number of tracks to fit, it's not much use for shunting the yard, it's really just an extra siding. I've even sketched a loco shed on it for the LTD loco as a possibility (in reality this was on the short spur at the top left of the map above). To add extra operating potential, I've put in a kick-back siding which would need the second loco to shunt it. 

On this layout, most of the backscene would be a representation of the tar works, though the foreground would be all green and there might be some trees in the back right corner. The LTD loco shed could be a nice cameo scene and this might draw the eye away from the fact that the layout is a bit cramped. Or the shed could be omitted and it could be a weedy siding that would be more prototypical to the site.

It could be operated with one loco and the 3 main tracks as an Inglenook Sidings, but could also be used in other modes with the second loco in play.

 

Another variant of this has the loco shed fed from the opposite direction from the sector plate. Only the rear track of the sector plate could reach it, but it could be transferred to the front via a shunt. That's less prototypical and I'm not sure it's quite as good as the one above.

There are of course other ways of using a second feed from the sector plate (including forming a run-round loop).

 

At present I am not considering a representation of the internal LTD tracks where the tank wagons were filled and emptied, it wouldn't have been served by the MSC locos and would have had very little variety of traffic. It would have also been very gritty industrial whereas I'd like a rural element. That's not to say it wouldn't make a great layout!

 

Part of me is saying 'keep it simple' just do the first one and actually get something finished this time! However I feel it might be a bit limited.

The second option doesn't involve much more work (I have enough points for it already) and might be more rewarding. 

 

The board structure could be identical for both, so postponing a decision wouldn't delay the carpentry. But before starting to cut wood, has anyone got any comments or better ideas?

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Mol_PMB
grammar

[Regularity]

44 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Part of me is saying 'keep it simple' just do the first one and actually get something finished this time!

No problem.

Build it with four intentions:

To finish something;

To try out ideas which will be necessary on the larger layout (buildings, grass-encrusted track);

To make sure you can get reliable running of track and stock; and most importantly 

To throw it away afterwards if necessary.

 

You don’t have to throw it away (could sell it), but if you build knowing that it’s not permanent, you will keep it simple, and build it well as it is a test piece, nothing more.

 

Personally I would go for two turnouts and no sector plate, in true ”inglenook” style, and manually fiddle on the plain track - KISS.

[doilum]

Old school. Invest a couple of quid in a roll of lining paper. Draw the layout full size using your chosen points as templates. PLAY. Release the inner toddler and push those wagons around. You will quickly discover the limitations without cutting any track. On Houghton Street this method led me to invest in a Y point and positioned the run round in a much more efficient manner.

[Mol_PMB]

I fancied a change from the computer and the rolling stock kits, so this afternoon I have been manufacturing sawdust!

 

It’s made of 5mm ply and 22mm square softwood, screwed together. It’s very light (the plan, so it could be easily moved) and pretty rigid, but it definitely needs a bit more cross-bracing underneath. That’s a job for tomorrow, as is making the headshunt extension. I might also add some more triangular braces on the front (canal bank). 

[doilum]

Neat. Don't forget to finalise the point locations before adding the extra cross bracing.

[Mol_PMB]

That's a very good point about the cross-bracing locations, and one reason I left the braces until last. Also they all need to be different lengths because the high part of the board is tapered (the overall plan is a rectangle though). When I make the cross-braces I'll make sure I put some largish holes in them so I can route wires through them neatly.

 

So far, everything has just been screwed together though rigidity could be improved if I added some PVA to the joints. I think I'll just stay with the screws for now. In that case, if I just screw the cross-braces then it will be possible to change one or more later if they do turn out to be in the wrong place.

 

On the subject of points, they will have to be motored as there is nowhere sensible to put manual levers/knobs etc because the scenery drops down to the front.

I went round to my 'bubble' yesterday evening to watch his computer drive his model railway. Very impressive and lots to learn from his experience, but the network of computers, block detectors and boxes covered in flashing lights is not the way I plan to go.

However, we got to discussing point motors and he showed me the MTB MP1 which he has been using. They look a very neat design, easy to fit and adjust. I think I'll get myself a couple and try them on this board.

 

 

[Sweet pea]

That a nicely put together baseboard. Looking forward to seeing more.

[woodenhead]

Where did you get the ply? It looked very flat for a 5mm, that didn't come from B&Q

[Mol_PMB]

36 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Where did you get the ply? It looked very flat for a 5mm, that didn't come from B&Q

 

Believe it or not, it did come from B&Q: there aren't many options in lockdown.

I tried to select flatter ones in the shop, but they still weren't brilliant. I bought three 6'x2' and chose the best one for the horizontal surfaces.

Because it's so thin it is also quite flexible. The channel-section structure helps to straighten it out, and the transverse battens that I will fit this afternoon should help the rigidity too.

So far I've only used one and a half of the sheets of ply. I think I will have one left over to use as a backscene, but that can be added later.

 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

Believe it or not, it did come from B&Q: there aren't many options in lockdown.

 

Blimey, my experience of their ply has left me less than satisfied in the past, I did try Atlantic timber before the first lockdown but the quality ply I was after was not in stock nor appeared to be coming in to stock despite what their website said.

 

I ended up going to Grainge and Hodder.

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Blimey, my experience of their ply has left me less than satisfied in the past, I did try Atlantic timber before the first lockdown but the quality ply I was after was not in stock nor appeared to be coming in to stock despite what their website said.

 

I ended up going to Grainge and Hodder.

One of my friends has been trying to get some timber recently and has several frustrations with service and stock levels from Atlantic.

I don't have a car myself so am reliant on a (different) friend in my bubble for transport for this sort of thing. That places limits on the maximum size of sheet, and the amount of driving around that it is reasonable to call on as a favour!

The B&Q ply certainly isn't good enough for finely finished models, but hopefully it will soon be covered up in cork, track and scenery.

 

In retrospect it's appropriate to buy the timber from a site once served by the MSC Railway. Even if it was imported from China...

Edited January 24, 2021 by Mol_PMB
final comment

[woodenhead]

When I was at Atlantic, they had one small pre-cut sheet of the brand I was trying to purchase and as if to rub salt in the wounds, it was certainly of the quality I was after.

[Jollibob]

Sorry, going back briefly to the subjects of brake vans, there use to be a an ex Great Western Toad down by the waterways museum at Gloucester quays in MSC livery. The caption read says it was part of a brakedown train used on the line.

A perfect excuse for a little side project?

 

Rob.

Not my photo, I do have a picture somewhere but can't for life of me find it.

 

Edit:

Recently this wagon has left the site, no idea where to?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Jollibob

[Mol_PMB]

I think it is at Ellesmere Port museum now. Or there is a very similar one there. 

I think the MSC had at least four Toads converted to breakdown equipment vans. 

They also had several former passenger coaches for various uses including the cashier’s train for paying the wages. 

They would certainly make interesting side projects!