Mol's MSC Layout: "The Boysnope Bump"

[doilum]

12 hours ago, moore43grm said:

FYI, there's a step by step guide on "How to make realistic weeds / Rosebay Willowherb" by Michael Russell in BRM July 2012.

Very similar to your method using bristles from an old paintbrush, static grasses and scatter materials etc

 

Russ M

 

I loved the account of Roy England making 4mm Holly hocks from his cat's whiskers!

I think this was in Model Railway Journal.

Edited March 18, 2021 by doilum

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, doilum said:

I loved the account of Roy England making 4mm Holly hocks from his cat's whiskers!

I think this was in Model Railway Journal.

Hmmm... Plucking Cats!

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Hmmm... Plucking Cats!

Isn’t that pizzicato on a violin?

 

[alastairq]

14 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Isn’t that pizzicato on a violin?

 

 

Try ordering that from Dominoes? 

 

[Phil Traxson]

On 01/03/2021 at 21:57, Mol_PMB said:

I'm representing only the north-east end of the loops (far end in the photo); no room for any more but it makes a nice Inglenook Sidings concept.

One and a bit of the big sheds will feature in low-relief on the backscene.

 

I am mulling over representing the stiff-leg derrick crane; it could be entirely an image on the backscene. However, the upright and the jib could be modelled on-scene (with the upright against the backscene and the jib overhanging the siding as pictured) and some sort of image on the backscene for the rest of it. I have found a kit for a derrick crane but the job is wrong. However I may be able to find a road crane kit with a more appropriate type of jib:

https://modeltechstudios.com/oscalerailroadtracksidesteelstifflegderrick-crane.aspx

 

I'm 'borrowing' a few other details from nearby parts of the canal, to make the canal bank along the front a bit more interesting.

 

 

Pity it's not a wooden derrick you need. But you may be able to make use of the castings I have for the pivots, pulleys and ground fittings at considerably less cost. If you have nothing before you visit  Porthmadog next time give me a shout and you can see them in the flesh. 

Phil Traxson 

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Phil Traxson said:

Pity it's not a wooden derrick you need. But you may be able to make use of the castings I have for the pivots, pulleys and ground fittings at considerably less cost. If you have nothing before you visit  Porthmadog next time give me a shout and you can see them in the flesh. 

Phil Traxson 

Many thanks Phil, that could be a good solution.

The crane will probably be one of the last things I add to the layout, so no rush. Hopefully we'll see each other in Wales some time in the summer.

[Mol_PMB]

A quick update. Firstly I have been making more Rosebay Willowherb. I have ordered some fine florists wire which should make these quicker to do, but so far there are a total of 30 stems complete:

 

Here is a group of 15 temporarily planted to see how they look. I think the clump needs to be a bit denser and I am also going to plant some static grass on the ground in the same colour to add to that.

 

Finally I have been doing some research into the coaches operated by the MSC Railway. Over the years they had at least a dozen and I would like to model at least one.

In fact I found I very nearly had a model of one of them already! Years ago I built a couple of LMS 'Porthole' coaches in blue/grey livery, and here is my BSK extracted from its box for the first time in 12 years:

The MSC Railway did have one of these, M27001M, which also carried blue/grey in BR service (but not in MSC service). I haven't seen a photo of it in MSC colours though, a possibility would be to repaint this model, though I do rather like the unusual BR livery on it.

 

 

 

[doilum]

On 17/03/2021 at 20:02, moore43grm said:

FYI, there's a step by step guide on "How to make realistic weeds / Rosebay Willowherb" by Michael Russell in BRM July 2012.

Very similar to your method using bristles from an old paintbrush, static grasses and scatter materials etc

 

Russ M

 

I loved the account of Roy England making 4mm Holly hocks from his cat's whiskers!

[doilum]

Sorry for double post. Be careful not to over do the rbwh. This clump looks about right. They grow from wind  bourne seeds rather than underground root systems so tend to be more individual plants. Small groups all over the layout may be more effective. The tiny seeds are able to thrive in broken concrete and ash which is why this is such an invasive species on demolition sites and railway sidings.

[Mol_PMB]

22 minutes ago, doilum said:

Sorry for double post. Be careful not to over do the rbwh. This clump looks about right. They grow from wind  bourne seeds rather than underground root systems so tend to be more individual plants. Small groups all over the layout may be more effective. The tiny seeds are able to thrive in broken concrete and ash which is why this is such an invasive species on demolition sites and railway sidings.

 

Agreed, though given time it seems to take over vast areas. I think a few medium clumps and some small ones or individual stems may be the best way to go.

 

Although a black and white image in winter, I think the clump of dark stems on the right of this photo is a clump of rbwh. Also there are smaller groups of stems in the six-foot near the telegraph pole:

 

This is autumn and the color has just gone, but the dark stems with white fluffy tops are rbwh. Again there's a clump near the top of the canal bank and a row of smaller clumps in the six-foot between the sidings on the right:

 

Here's a still from Richard Greenwood's film of one of the other late 1960s MSC railtours, showing the 'Pug' finding its way through a sea of rbwh somewhere in Trafford Park:

 

I do think I need a bit more variety in the height of my stems - at the moment they're all about the maximum height for rbwh but I need some shorter ones along the front of each clump.

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

On 26/01/2021 at 21:33, Marshall5 said:

The second is of green painted Dock Labour Coach No3 (an ex LMS TO 7991/1926) purchased in 1960.  ISTR it was saved for preservation - maybe Dinting or ELR?

Cheers,

Ray.

 

Hi Ray,

I'm looking into options for modelling Dock Labour Coach No.3, perhaps based on a Sidelines kit.

You mentioned in your post a few weeks ago that it was painted green - do you have any recollection of what shade of green? Similar to the MSC Diesels, or something different?

 

In your photo it doesn't look too dark, but in the other photo I have seen of this vehicle (below) it looks darker. Maybe just the lighting conditions though, or the state of weathering?

Many thanks,

Mol

 

[doilum]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

Agreed, though given time it seems to take over vast areas. I think a few medium clumps and some small ones or individual stems may be the best way to go.

 

Although a black and white image in winter, I think the clump of dark stems on the right of this photo is a clump of rbwh. Also there are smaller groups of stems in the six-foot near the telegraph pole:

 

This is autumn and the color has just gone, but the dark stems with white fluffy tops are rbwh. Again there's a clump near the top of the canal bank and a row of smaller clumps in the six-foot between the sidings on the right:

 

Here's a still from Richard Greenwood's film of one of the other late 1960s MSC railtours, showing the 'Pug' finding its way through a sea of rbwh somewhere in Trafford Park:

 

I do think I need a bit more variety in the height of my stems - at the moment they're all about the maximum height for rbwh but I need some shorter ones along the front of each clump.

 

 

 

Wading through the weeds.....

Uniformity is the enemy. Random reigns!

[Marshall5]

Hi Mol,

From what I remember the green wasn't dissimilar to the diesel loco green - maybe a bit more faded. I've got several of Malcolm's carriages and can thoroughly recommend his kits.  Dock Labour coach 3 was, as you say, a D1745 for which no kit exists.  The D1745 was the all steel i.e. not beaded version of the D1692 for which Sidelines do a kit - but I wouldn't fancy trying to remove all that beading from the etched sides without causing irreparable damage. It would possibly be easier to scratchbuild the sides - maybe from Plastikard with a Silhouette cutter.

Have you considered doing the Engineer's Dept carriage 'Rover'?  It was an ex Period 3 Porthole BTK to D2161 which came to the MSC in 1965 and a kit is available from Sidelines - it'd be a lot easier!

Best of luck whichever you choose and I'm following your build with interest. Stay safe.

Cheers,

Ray.

 

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

Hi Mol,

From what I remember the green wasn't dissimilar to the diesel loco green - maybe a bit more faded. I've got several of Malcolm's carriages and can thoroughly recommend his kits.  Dock Labour coach 3 was, as you say, a D1745 for which no kit exists.  The D1745 was the all steel i.e. not beaded version of the D1692 for which Sidelines do a kit - but I wouldn't fancy trying to remove all that beading from the etched sides without causing irreparable damage. It would possibly be easier to scratchbuild the sides - maybe from Plastikard with a Silhouette cutter.

Have you considered doing the Engineer's Dept carriage 'Rover'?  It was an ex Period 3 Porthole BTK to D2161 which came to the MSC in 1965 and a kit is available from Sidelines - it'd be a lot easier!

Best of luck whichever you choose and I'm following your build with interest. Stay safe.

Cheers,

Ray.

 

Hi Ray,

Many thanks, that's very helpful. I waas thinking of getting a pair of sides custom etched for the D1745 and then fitting them to a D1692 kit. Some other changes would be needed (no solebar trussing for example) but I expect the kit would be a very good basis for the rest of it and it's good to hear that you can recommend the kits.

I have considered 'Rover' though I have never seen a photo of it in MSC service (I have an earlier photo of it in BR blue/grey as M27001M, and of course it is now preserved).

The easiest way to model it would be a repaint of this that I built about 15 years ago from Ian Kirk parts and a lot of work!

Thanks again,

Mol

 

 

 

[Marshall5]

I like your BSK which shows that with a bit of work Ian's parts can make up into very respectable models.  I am, however, very surprised that M27001 was painted in blue/grey as that livery (except for XP64 stock) was only introduced in 1965 - the same year that it came to the MSC.  B.R. wasn't known for wasting money on re-painting stock which must've already been slated for withdrawal.  Getting D1745 sides etched to go on a Sidelines D1692 kit would certainly be the best, if not cheapest, solution. It might be worth asking Malcolm Binns for his advice  - I've always found him most helpful.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

I like your BSK which shows that with a bit of work Ian's parts can make up into very respectable models.  I am, however, very surprised that M27001 was painted in blue/grey as that livery (except for XP64 stock) was only introduced in 1965 - the same year that it came to the MSC.  B.R. wasn't known for wasting money on re-painting stock which must've already been slated for withdrawal.  Getting D1745 sides etched to go on a Sidelines D1692 kit would certainly be the best, if not cheapest, solution. It might be worth asking Malcolm Binns for his advice  - I've always found him most helpful.

Cheers,

Ray.

In Jenkinson & Essery's 3-volume 'LMS Standard Coaching Stock' there is a photo of M27001M in blue/grey under the wires on the WCML. I think there were a dozen or more porthole day coaches painted blue/grey, mostly BSK but some SK and CK. At least one of the previous non-porthole BSKs was too. I have a feeling that some may have been fitted with electric heating but it's a long time since I researched them!

I think the reason I didn't choose M27001M when I built my model 15 years ago was because it had such a short life in that livery. I'd be more tempted by 'Rover' if I could find a photo of it (the same goes for 'Ranger').

I'll ask Malcolm for his thoughts on the D1745 conversion, thanks for the tip.

[Mol_PMB]

I have properly planted a few clumps of rosebay willowherb this afternoon. So far there is one medium clump, a very small clump, and two individual stems.

Here's a general view, which also shows where the track gang have recently shovel-packed a rail joint on the main line. I have a couple of track ganger figures that may appear later, if they don't slope off to the Boat House Inn before I get them painted!

Although there are a few weeds on the main line, it's kept in better nick than the sidings.

 

A closeup of the medium clump, with some more gratuitous wagon close-ups; this is the one cut down from a mineral wagon (by the MSC and by me):

 

And the other individual stem, which isn't in the overview photo, with another grotty old truck as a backdrop:

I'm quite pleased with how these are looking; they add a bit of colour and height to the weeds.

I have plans for another three or four medium clumps and some more small ones scattered around.

[Sandhole]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I have properly planted a few clumps of rosebay willowherb this afternoon. So far there is one medium clump, a very small clump, and two individual stems.

Here's a general view, which also shows where the track gang have recently shovel-packed a rail joint on the main line. I have a couple of track ganger figures that may appear later, if they don't slope off to the Boat House Inn before I get them painted!

Although there are a few weeds on the main line, it's kept in better nick than the sidings.

 

A closeup of the medium clump, with some more gratuitous wagon close-ups; this is the one cut down from a mineral wagon (by the MSC and by me):

 

And the other individual stem, which isn't in the overview photo, with another grotty old truck as a backdrop:

I'm quite pleased with how these are looking; they add a bit of colour and height to the weeds.

I have plans for another three or four medium clumps and some more small ones scattered around.

Seeing those wagons, in this setting, brings back memories.
Great work.

[Marshall5]

16 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

 I am, however, very surprised that M27001 was painted in blue/grey as that livery (except for XP64 stock) was only introduced in 1965 - the same year that it came to the MSC.  B.R. wasn't known for wasting money on re-painting stock which must've already been slated for withdrawal.

I've been thinking about this.  Having had a close look at the photo in 'LMS Standard Coaching Stock'  I suspect that the BTK shown is actually M27000M and the caption is incorrect.  This thread

lists both M27000 and M27001 as in blue/grey in Sept 1966 by which time M27001 had been in use at the MSC, as Rover, for a year.  Could the simple transposition of one number in the photo caption have given rise to the idea that Rover could have been in blue/grey when withdrawn?  I rest my case M'Lud.

Ray.

[Mol_PMB]

Interesting theory! Looking at the photo in question through a lens I do think it is M27001M but I agree it is not perfectly clear.

Don Thorpe does mention that it was painted BR blue in his MSC Railway history, and he might have remembered it arriving at the MSC.

I wonder if the current owners have found any trace of blue paint during the restoration?

[doilum]

The dumb question. Why / how did the MSC use coaches?

[Mol_PMB]

44 minutes ago, doilum said:

The dumb question. Why / how did the MSC use coaches?

 

Not so dumb, but they had about a dozen of them over the years.

 

The four Dock Labour Coaches No.1, No.1, No.2 and No.3  (!) were used for moving dock workers to the various quays around the MSC system, wherever a ship needed loading or unloading. It was a few miles from Salford to Irwell Park and Partington so it made sense to move the dockers by train. The original No.1 was replaced by the second No.1, which itself was replaced by No.2 and No.3 which existed concurrently.

The three Cashier's Coaches No.1, No.2 and No.3 were used from on the weekly pay train around the system, distributing wages. Only one was used at a time, later ones replaced the earlier vehicle.

In the early days there was an inspection saloon.

The engineers who were responsible for maintenance of the canal equipment (locks, sluices etc) as well as the railway also had some coaches which were used for both travel to site and as a mess/stores vehicle. These are less well documented but there were at least three including an L&Y bogie vehicle, a 4 wheeler named 'Ranger', and latterly an LMS 'porthole' BSK named 'Rover' as discussed above.

 

With my layout set on the MSC through route, there would have been a weekly visit of the cashier's coach, and ad-hoc visits of the dock labour coaches and engineers coaches depending on the work occurring.

 

Cheers,

Mol

Edited March 20, 2021 by Mol_PMB
typo

[doilum]

Thanks. I guess we forget just how labour intensive dock work was before containerization. My grandfather one explained how pay day started by travelling around the outlaying collieries to meet the night shift coming out. He was driven around in a van escorted by three large miners and their pick axe handles! 

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

Thanks. I guess we forget just how labour intensive dock work was before containerization. My grandfather one explained how pay day started by travelling around the outlaying collieries to meet the night shift coming out. He was driven around in a van escorted by three large miners and their pick axe handles! 

I have quite a few books about the Manchesteer Docks including some that are reminiscences of a variety of people, from the lowly docker through the electrician and tug captain up to the manager of the docks. They make very interesting reading and help to put the layout into context in my mind.

 

Dockers would all turn up in the morning at 0700 in a huge pen near the docks office, and would be allocated jobs by the foremen. If the foreman was your friend (or if you had bought him a couple of pints the night before) you might get a cleaner job, or a more lucrative job. If you were a newcomer or hadn't bribed someone, you'd be lucky to get any work at all and it would be a filthy or dangerous task if you did. Gangs of dockers were allocated to each task and sent off to the appropriate dock  - maybe 10 to 20 men per job. If they were working in the main docks they would have to walk, but a job at Irwell Park, Partington, and perhaps some locations on the Trafford/Barton side would be a train ride away, and that's what the dock labour coaches were used for. I have seen photos of them at Irwell Park and Partington.

[doilum]

Strange to think that whilst the rest of Britain raced at supersonic speed into the swinging sixties this biblical method of hiring labour was still clinging on.

Edited March 20, 2021 by doilum