New range of simple to assemble 00/EM gauge pointwork kits - EM B7 Prototype - First Look

[Wayne Kinney]

A question for Martin and John (Hayfield), if I may.

 

Studying the chair layout of different drawings, I notice a discrepancy. The following shows an A switch, first drawing a prototypical drawing, and the last two are two different exactoscale templates:

 

I notice that the first 2 show 4x L1 chairs on the right timber, but the bottom exactoscale template shows only 2x L1 chairs next to standard S1 chairs. Which is correct?

I also notice a similar discrepancy on the 2 different exactoscale B Switch templates below, again which is correct?

[hayfield]

Wayne

 

Martin is the guru in this department, with A switches the double A chair is correct for A but whether it changes in differing angles I have no idea. As I have said before there are some typos in the Exactoscale diagrams and plans. When building turnouts it quickly becomes clear when there is an error

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Wayne Kinney said:

A question for Martin and John (Hayfield), if I may.

 

Studying the chair layout of different drawings, I notice a discrepancy.

 

Hi Wayne,

 

With all pointwork there are variations between prototype companies. The original REA bullhead designs are now 100* years old, and in all that time companies have made their own amendments. However, the original REA and most likely chairing at the heel of A switches is like this:

 

 

I can imagine an L1 chair being used quite often instead of the S1J chair. The L1 is heavier than an ordinary S1 and has 4 fixings, so suitable for use as a joint chair (as on the previous timber).

 

For the B switches:

 

 

 

 

Exactoscale seem to have got this one wrong. The original design was for L1 chairs on that timber. However, some companies may have found that an S1 fits in some situations, just about. For example on a B-6 turnout but not a B-7. It's very likely that Len referred to photos when drawing the CAD designs.

 

Note also that where S1 and L1 chairs are side by side, and not adjacent to a joint, it is not consistent as to which rail gets which chair. Drawings differ. Logic dictates keeping the L1 chair as square to the timber as possible, because the fixings are close to the edge of the timber -- but the above design has it the other way.

 

*Another system which has lasted 100 years is the landline telephone system with self-powered dialling tone. That system is due to be switched off in 2025 (as the TV switch to digital a few years ago). It would be interesting to know how long bullhead track will last in regular use anywhere on the national system.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Wayne,

 

With all pointwork there are variations between prototype companies. The original REA bullhead designs are now 100* years old, and in all that time companies have made their own amendments. However, the original REA and most likely chairing at the heel of A switches is like this:

 

 

I can imagine an L1 chair being used quite often instead of the S1J chair. The L1 is heavier than an ordinary S1 and has 4 fixings, so suitable for use as a joint chair (as on the previous timber).

 

For the B switches:

 

 

 

 

Exactoscale seem to have got this one wrong. The original design was for L1 chairs on that timber. However, some companies may have found that an S1 fits in some situations, just about. For example on a B-6 turnout but not a B-7. It's very likely that Len referred to photos when drawing the CAD designs.

 

Note also that where S1 and L1 chairs are side by side, and not adjacent to a joint, it is not consistent as to which rail gets which chair. Drawings differ. Logic dictates keeping the L1 chair as square to the timber as possible, because the fixings are close to the edge of the timber -- but the above design has it the other way.

 

*Another system which has lasted 100 years is the landline telephone system with self-powered dialling tone. That system is due to be switched off in 2025 (as the TV switch to digital a few years ago). It would be interesting to know how long bullhead track will last in regular use anywhere on the national system.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

The Far north line just got some new bullhead rail so I suspect quite a few years longer

 

I doubt the 2025 year will see an absolute end of PSTN either

[roythebus1]

I note DCC (can I use that name on here) are offering brass b/h chairs for about £49 for a pack of 100. That would make a yard of track very expensive.

[martin_wynne]

21 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

I note DCC (can I use that name on here) are offering brass b/h chairs for about £49 for a pack of 100. That would make a yard of track very expensive.

 

Hi Roy,

 

They are L1 or M1 bridge chairs, so only used on bridge waybeams or within pointwork. So you would need only a few normally.

 

L1 bridge chairs are 11" wide, so they don't fit on ordinary 10"-wide sleepers. No-one is likely to build yard lengths of plain track with them.

 

See other topic: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/161965-new-track-components-from-dcc-concepts/  

 

Martin.

 

[Grovenor]

19 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

L1 bridge chairs are 11" wide, so they don't fit on ordinary 10"-wide sleepers. No-one is likely to build yard lengths of plain track with them.

See other topic: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/161965-new-track-components-from-dcc-concepts/ 

Martin.

But DCC concepts are suggesting you do just that and going into detail as to how to do it.

[martin_wynne]

11 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

But DCC concepts are suggesting you do just that and going into detail as to how to do it.

 

Hi Keith,

 

We don't actually know the dimensions of the cast chairs. They may be the smaller 43lb M1 bridge chairs, which are 10" wide. Equally daft to use them on ordinary sleepers of course.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

On 04/02/2021 at 16:31, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Wayne,

 

With all pointwork there are variations between prototype companies. The original REA bullhead designs are now 100* years old, and in all that time companies have made their own amendments. However, the original REA and most likely chairing at the heel of A switches is like this:

 

 

I can imagine an L1 chair being used quite often instead of the S1J chair. The L1 is heavier than an ordinary S1 and has 4 fixings, so suitable for use as a joint chair (as on the previous timber).

 

For the B switches:

 

 

 

 

Exactoscale seem to have got this one wrong. The original design was for L1 chairs on that timber. However, some companies may have found that an S1 fits in some situations, just about. For example on a B-6 turnout but not a B-7. It's very likely that Len referred to photos when drawing the CAD designs.

 

Note also that where S1 and L1 chairs are side by side, and not adjacent to a joint, it is not consistent as to which rail gets which chair. Drawings differ. Logic dictates keeping the L1 chair as square to the timber as possible, because the fixings are close to the edge of the timber -- but the above design has it the other way.

 

*Another system which has lasted 100 years is the landline telephone system with self-powered dialling tone. That system is due to be switched off in 2025 (as the TV switch to digital a few years ago). It would be interesting to know how long bullhead track will last in regular use anywhere on the national system.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Martin

 

We do listen to you

 

 

A mixture of the new C&L 3 bolt chairs and Exactoscale parts, the B switch chair layout you showed is a far better fit. Thank you

[Guy Rixon]

On 05/02/2021 at 20:04, martin_wynne said:

They are L1 or M1 bridge chairs, so only used on bridge waybeams or within pointwork. So you would need only a few normally.

 

L1 bridge chairs are 11" wide, so they don't fit on ordinary 10"-wide sleepers. No-one is likely to build yard lengths of plain track with them.

IIUC, a "waybeam" is a baulk of timber running under and parallel to the rail. Somewhat like Brunel's baulk road, but used more often in bridges, with the waybeams sitting on the lateral girders, where there's no enough vertical space for a ballasted formation. Charing Cross railway bridge is like that.

 

Assuming that definition, is it correct that all the plain-line chairs are L1s? I ask because I am planning to build several yards of track on waybeams (there's always one!).

[martin_wynne]

46 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

Assuming that definition, is it correct that all the plain-line chairs are L1s? I ask because I am planning to build several yards of track on waybeams (there's always one!).

 

Hi Guy,

 

Either L1 or M1 (rare):

 

 

Waybeams are usually around 14" wide, and ordinary S1 chairs are 14.1/2" long, so they don't fit. Or if they do fit on wider waybeams, the fixings would be too close to the edge. L1 chairs are 10.1/2" long.

 

The waybeams in the photo look to be about 16" wide.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by martin_wynne

[NFWEM57]

On 06/02/2021 at 15:09, Grovenor said:

But DCC concepts are suggesting you do just that and going into detail as to how to do it.

Perhaps they are trying to move stock before the easy build kits come along?

[Michael Hodgson]

On 04/02/2021 at 16:31, martin_wynne said:

 

*Another system which has lasted 100 years is the landline telephone system with self-powered dialling tone. That system is due to be switched off in 2025 (as the TV switch to digital a few years ago). It would be interesting to know how long bullhead track will last in regular use anywhere on the national system.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Really??  Are you saying that my Strowger phones will stop working - and what about keeping a landline  for a transplant patient (she was blue-lighted back into hospital yesterday afternoon as it happens) in order to be able to make emergency calls notwithstanding any power cuts?

[martin_wynne]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Really??  Are you saying that my Strowger phones will stop working - and what about keeping a landline  for a transplant patient (she was blue-lighted back into hospital yesterday afternoon as it happens) in order to be able to make emergency calls notwithstanding any power cuts?

 

Yes. All will stop working. See:

 

 https://www.globe2.net/it-news/the-openreach-pstn-withdrawal/

 

Being replaced with voice-over-broadband using a new system called SOGEA.

 

Alarm devices will need converting to SOGEA and will need battery-backup to deal with power cuts (most of them already have battery-backup). Your alarm provider will be in touch at some stage.

 

999 calls will also need power, I don't know what is planned for power cuts -- possibly relying on the G4/G5 mobile coverage.

 

Sorry this is off-topic -- probably it will get one of its own when everyone realises what's happening. Existing wired and wireless landline phones will go off-sale in 2023 (only 2 years left -- don't buy an expensive one now).

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Hi Martin, please do open a new topic on this as I've just read the link.

 

Still trying to take on board the implications, but it talks about voice services and being unable to use them over a land line. Does this mean what it says? Are voice services a normal old fashioned chat over the phone? If so, where does that leave those without internet, such as the old where a land line is a life line?

Edited February 10, 2021 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

14 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Hi Martin, please do open a new topic on this as I've just read the link.

 

Still trying to take on board the implications, but it talks about voice services and being unable to use them over a land line. Does this mean what it says? Are voice services a normal old fashioned chat over the phone? If so, where does those without internet, such as the old where a land line is a life line?

 

Hi Gordon,

 

It would be better if someone in the telecomms industry started the topic. I don't know very much about it and I don't want to become the go-to person for info (00-SF? ).

 

You will still need the wired connection line to your house (unless you have cable or radio broadband).

 

If you don't have proper broadband on it already, the line rental will include a mini-broadband service just sufficient to work the voice-over-broadband for making phone calls. You will be able to keep your existing phone number.

 

Existing phones, routers, alarm devices, etc., which plug into the existing BT socket will either need replacing, or some sort of adaptor box (which will need power).

 

The existing system provides its own power for traditional phones. But BT say the entire system is life-expired, it's about 100 years old, and in places there are still some very old cables and wires. For example if you have an old black phone from before the war, at present it still works, requiring no power or batteries. Only 4 years left.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Wayne Kinney]

Meh? 

[KeithHC]

Don’t worry Wayne we will all get back to nagging you for more pictures, videos, release dates et etc.

 

Keith

ps btw any updates........... he he he he
 

[AndyID]

9 hours ago, gordon s said:

Hi Martin, please do open a new topic on this as I've just read the link.

 

Still trying to take on board the implications, but it talks about voice services and being unable to use them over a land line. Does this mean what it says? Are voice services a normal old fashioned chat over the phone? If so, where does that leave those without internet, such as the old where a land line is a life line?

 

Here you go Gordon.

 

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/uks-pstn-will-be-kaput-by-2025.54/

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Martin,

 

Does this look correct?

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

Hi Martin,

 

Does this look correct?

 

Hi Wayne,

 

That looks great!

 

And well-done for correctly placing the block chairs skewed square to the stock rail as they should be. And not square to the timber as shown on the Exactoscale drawing. This is something which is often drawn wrong, including sadly in BRT3 and on other official drawings.

 

But you have got the block chair footprints a bit wrong. They don't have curved sides, they are rectangular.

 

There is only one pair of L and R block chairs in each switch size, which are used for both left-hand and right-hand switches. The chair drawings clearly show the outer jaw for the stock rail square to the base, with the inner jaw angled to match the switch rail (blade):

 

 

Which means that they are skewed on the timber for the diverging stock rail:

 

LH switch:

 

RH switch uses same chairs:

 

The above is for the 3D developments I'm doing in Templot. Like you I was misled by the drawings until I realised it couldn't be, and went looking at some actual track:

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited February 13, 2021 by martin_wynne
wrong image

[Wayne Kinney]

Many thanks for your help, Martin! Much appreciated.

 

Sending them files to print now...

[NFWEM57]

British Finescale 2nd Prototype - Assembly

 

Wayne kindly provided me with a 2nd porotype earlier this week and today I have assembled it. Total time around 65 minutes from unpack to completion of assembly.

 

I had previously passed back my comments regarding ease of assembly and other factors, not correlation with the prototype; plenty in this forum providing excellent advice on that..!. All the minor issues previously encountered have been resolved, it was a real joy to assemble.  Hats off to Wayne, well deserved and I do hope he wins innovation of the year for the BRM Awards..!

 

A few pictures of assembly. I left a slightly larger gap this time between frog and rails, and at both ends.  I will be fitting to the test track, in place of prototype ,  later today and running some locomotives through tomorrow.

 

  

 

    

 

    

 

    

 

Regards,  

Patrick

Edited April 2, 2022 by NFWEM57

[Robert Shrives]

That does look very  good and neat from the get go. I guess the bonding in the last picture could also be a point of adding droppers as well.  The  pate/blade and pin join provided is the  "game changer for many"  and indeed Wayne gets the medal this year!

Robert 

[KeithHC]

It’s looking better and better well done Wayne and Patrick.

 

Keith