New range of simple to assemble 00/EM gauge pointwork kits - EM B7 Prototype - First Look

[hayfield]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Just some questions for the two Waynes.  There was some discussion early in this or the parallel thread about the possibility of making kits like this for P4, which was dismissed.  I'm just wondering at the variability (tolerance) of the gauge, ie, if you measure 10 assembled points what the spread would be and whether this would be anywhere near to being useable for P4.  The Scalefour track and wheel standards shows the gauge to be min of 18,83 and maximum for gauge widening, at a radius of 528mm, of + 0,22.  The trouble is there is no tolerance up from the 18,83 for straight track as this is stated to be achieved using construction gauges.  It seems to me that if the variability was no more than say 0,10 or even 0,15, it might be achievable.  Comments?

 

Jeff

 

Wayne's product uses the same cast common crossing (which by design is a bit short so that it is not handed) one crossing fits both left hand and right hand turnouts and also EM and 00SF gauges. Simply 4 products can be built from 1 casting, when diamonds come in then 8 products per casting can be produced

 

To keep this product within a budget then a few compromises have to be accepted, plus is there a market share to break even let alone make a profit ?

 

If a P4 turnout was introduced those interested will want full length handed common crossings, which equates to 2 castings per turnout size, then you have the question of inbuilt manufacturing tolerances in keeping with P4 standards 

 

Lets run with the first few products and see how the market accepts them, 

[Wayne Kinney]

11 hours ago, Philou said:

May I ask @Wayne Kinney if a set can be made by those that wish to, without affecting the kit as supplied?

Yes you can.

 

11 hours ago, Philou said:

If the answer is 'Yes', can I make a suggestion that once all the leaflets have been used up and/or the tooling become worn, then it would be an opportunity to alter the instructions to reflect the making of the set? A Mk1 and then a Mk2 version if you will. After all, despite compromises that have to be made modelling in 00, should we not be striving to achieve as near to prototype as is practically possible? It's what most RTR loco manufacturers seem to be doing. If a set can be achieved by means of a tap of a hammer on a simple jig by those that wish to, why not?

Please refer the post above by Gordon S, this really sums up my thinking very well.

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, RBAGE said:

My point is that the vast majority of 00 gauge modellers never consider course scale or finescale. They would consider that getting replacement wheels as an unnecessary and unexpected expense. As you say, that part of the hobby is catered for.

This majority of modellers would never consider checking back to back dimension, thinking the industry will have taken care of that. Not an unreasonable assumption.

If it is considered necessary for 00-FS, as some well positioned contributors assert, why is that if measurement and adjustment is not necessary?

My comments are not based solely on the advice of the great and the good but that advice isout there.

 

Anyway, this is not the place to discuss gauge standards. Apologies to Wayne.

 

But is this product for the vast majority of modellers who are happy with what they have got, its not !!!

 

Its designed for the modeller wanting something better than what's available, the choice is "Finescale 00 gauge" or the ability to migrate to EM gauge. Neither of these two options is designed for the vast majority of 00 modellers, many of whom are happy with "set track" in code 100.

 

As Gordon has said its designed to move the hobby forward !!

[Wayne Kinney]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Just some questions for the two Waynes.  There was some discussion early in this or the parallel thread about the possibility of making kits like this for P4, which was dismissed.  I'm just wondering at the variability (tolerance) of the gauge, ie, if you measure 10 assembled points what the spread would be and whether this would be anywhere near to being useable for P4.  The Scalefour track and wheel standards shows the gauge to be min of 18,83 and maximum for gauge widening, at a radius of 528mm, of + 0,22.  The trouble is there is no tolerance up from the 18,83 for straight track as this is stated to be achieved using construction gauges.  It seems to me that if the variability was no more than say 0,10 or even 0,15, it might be achievable.  Comments?

After making the EM Gauge kit, I have a much better understanding of the manufacturing tolerances. I feel more confident that it's possible to produce a P4 kit, controlling the manufacturing tolerances to within the P4 standards. But proof is in the pudding and I'm no where near that stage yet

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, KeithHC said:

A silly question but do Peco put a set in any of there turnouts in 4mm?

 

Hi Keith,

 

No. But they don't claim them to be models of a prototype, or use prototype terms to describe them.

 

It would be interesting to see the reaction if Hornby did the same thing, supplying locomotives in Small, Medium, or Large size.

 

It's strange that a completely different mindset is applied to track. But Peco have prospered mightily from it.

 

Martin.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

3 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 But Peco have prospered mightily from it.

 

Largely by having an unchallenged monopoly, in the UK at least.  What is it now, 50 - 60 years?   And hardly any innovation or improvement in that time.

 

High time it was challenged.

[NFWEM57]

On 05/04/2021 at 09:03, KeithHC said:

A silly question but do Peco put a set in any of there turnouts in 4mm?

 

Keith

As Martin says, not on their turnouts for public consumption. But on the EMGS B6's they have a ground an inset into the rail for about 20mm.

 

Patrick

Edited April 2, 2022 by NFWEM57
Restore images

[whart57]

21 hours ago, RBAGE said:

We need to accept that all we are doing is building an impression of a railway. Even in S4 there are compromises.

 

Until someone figures out how to reconcile the 1:76.4 of linear dimensions with the 1:445943.744 of volume and therefore mass then true scale modelling is impossible. My issue with the ultra-finescale brigade is they obsess over things that can only be examined in the static sense, but things on a model railway are supposed to move. And that's when the problems start because models do not - and cannot - have the mass and inertia truly represented. Small example, a three link coupling swinging on a hook does not - because of basic physics - move like the real thing. (That has nothing to do with mass btw, that one is due to the period of swing being proportional to the length and we don't scale down time either.)

[NFWEM57]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

Largely by having an unchallenged monopoly, in the UK at least.  What is it now, 50 - 60 years?   And hardly any innovation or improvement in that time.

 

High time it was challenged.

Because the UK market is a side show for them, their focus is on the vast US, Asian and European HO markets. They have no need to change anything to continue to make a healthy profit.  I am surprised they remain here and have not moved to the EU or US.

[RBAGE]

5 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Until someone figures out how to reconcile the 1:76.4 of linear dimensions with the 1:445943.744 of volume and therefore mass then true scale modelling is impossible. My issue with the ultra-finescale brigade is they obsess over things that can only be examined in the static sense, but things on a model railway are supposed to move. And that's when the problems start because models do not - and cannot - have the mass and inertia truly represented. Small example, a three link coupling swinging on a hook does not - because of basic physics - move like the real thing. (That has nothing to do with mass btw, that one is due to the period of swing being proportional to the length and we don't scale down time either.)

A fairly hefty compromise.

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Jeff

 

Wayne's product uses the same cast common crossing (which by design is a bit short so that it is not handed) one crossing fits both left hand and right hand turnouts and also EM and 00SF gauges. Simply 4 products can be built from 1 casting, when diamonds come in then 8 products per casting can be produced

 

To keep this product within a budget then a few compromises have to be accepted, plus is there a market share to break even let alone make a profit ?

 

If a P4 turnout was introduced those interested will want full length handed common crossings, which equates to 2 castings per turnout size, then you have the question of inbuilt manufacturing tolerances in keeping with P4 standards 

 

Lets run with the first few products and see how the market accepts them, 

I had forgotten about the cast crossing but presumably a casting could be made to P4 standards within reasonably tight tolerances.

 

2 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

After making the EM Gauge kit, I have a much better understanding of the manufacturing tolerances. I feel more confident that it's possible to produce a P4 kit, controlling the manufacturing tolerances to within the P4 standards. But proof is in the pudding and I'm no where near that stage yet

An interesting answer.  Bearing in mind my answer above, I was initially interested in the repeatability and thus the tolerances that could be held in the 3D printing process.  Thanks.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

I had forgotten about the cast crossing but presumably a casting could be made to P4 standards within reasonably tight tolerances.

 

An interesting answer.  Bearing in mind my answer above, I was initially interested in the repeatability and thus the tolerances that could be held in the 3D printing process.  Thanks.

 

I was more referring to the fact that the casting is a bit on the short side (thus not handed) and if modelled as is, it may not come up to those who model in P4 standards

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I was more referring to the fact that the casting is a bit on the short side (thus not handed) and if modelled as is, it may not come up to those who model in P4 standards

 

Hi John,

 

The shorter the better to be re-usable in various formations. It just needs to be long enough to avoid any short-circuits from wheels on adjacent rails.

 

Wayne has got it just right. Let's not distract him with another quibble.

 

Proper P4 modellers will solder the connecting rails direct to the casting, and make the isolation breaks in the prototypical fishplate locations. That way the connecting rails can be as short or long or curved as needed. e.g. for making regular or curviform (or other) V-crossings.

 

Lesser P4 modellers will no doubt make them up exactly as supplied.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Guys,

 

Regarding timescales on releasing the kits.

 

Since the EM Gauge Society are supplying me the code 75 bullhead rail, I am first prioritising fulfilling their order for EM B7 kits. EMGS members will be able to order direct from the EMGS store at a discounted price.

 

This is going to be my first time processing a batch order, and I am still finding my feet in mass production, but it's looking good so far

 

This will push the Standard 00 Gauge release to the end of this month.

 

Thanks for your patience and support, everybody!

[Asterix2012]

Looking really good Wayne 

 

How are you getting on with these?

[Wayne Kinney]

1 hour ago, Asterix2012 said:

Looking really good Wayne 

 

How are you getting on with these?

Hi,

 

I am currently processing the EMGS order. All bases are now printed, 40% of switch blades are milled. Need to finish and despatch their order before the end of this week.

 

Production so far has gone very smoothly, but I have been a little delayed by other work and family commitments.

 

I am then away (caravanning) over the Bank Holiday weekend with my wife and little boy.

 

On my return, I will be concentrating on releasing the EM gauge kits on my website, followed by the 00 gauge version.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Wayne Kinney

[Enterprisingwestern]

9 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

I am then away (caravanning) over the Bank Holiday weekend with my wife and little boy.

 

Enjoy family life, most important, it's only toy trains at the end of the day and we can wait.

 

Mike.

[cheesysmith]

ONLY toy trains??????

 

Good god man, if it wasn`t for these TOY trains I would have to talk to the other half.

 

I prefer the peace and quiet of the toy trains myself lol.

[Wayne Kinney]

1 hour ago, cheesysmith said:

I prefer the peace and quiet of the toy trains myself lol.

 

[Wayne Kinney]

Hi Guys,

 

Batch of EM Gauge B7 kits now sent for delivery to the EMGS shop tomorrow, yay!

[KeithHC]

Well done Wayne they look very good. Looking forward to further releases and then I can have another go a build some. I bet you will be getting repeat orders soon.

 

Keith

[RBAGE]

Will you be limiting orders for 00 gauge turnouts from the initial production run? I expect they will sell like hot cakes.

Let me know when you expect the 00 gauge items to hit the market  so that I can make sure I'm near a computer.

[iak]

Form an orderly queue (ruck) please folks...

 

[NFWEM57]

13 hours ago, iak said:

Form an orderly queue (ruck) please folks...

 

And line for the US buyers..!

[Jeff Smith]

Queue is used in IT here but most Americans don't understand it unless they are an Anglophile......