Dodgy Drawing Track Plan

[33212]

Hello,

 

after your views and advice please. The new layout is multi level, upper is scenic, lower is storage - it’s a big layout, each side is 28feet max length, and about 8 feet max width for the scenic, the storage is the same length but 16 feet at the widest. The general idea is that the scenic level offers a roundy roundy option and to and from the storage yards option. The two are connected by a helix. An idea is for trains going to and from the storage level to be going in the same direction once at the bottom of the helix,  this would simplify the operation there. I have sketched a loose plan, A joins A, B joins B, X joins X and Y joins Y etc, not to scale etc. It’s DCC so probably need a reverse loop module here and there. Just after an opinion, is this do-able or not?

[DCB]

That is the basic concept of my loft layout and authority problems led to its abandonment.  It was DC automatic control but while the logic allowed trains to run in sequence it couldn't cope if the sequence was interrupted before all trains had returned to storage. T simplify control you need to get rid of the conflict between up and down trains on the top of the helix. I'll have a doodle later.

Edit   Any chance of a drawing showing available area, not "Scenic and non scenic but available area because this a a bit of a monster even with a 2ft radius helix  theY arrangement will eat lots of space..  I think the helix needs to be 2ft on the inside with the up track on the inside and the up track rising a whole turn more than the inside to avoid conflicts.  The pointwork you have drawn is essentially not available from Peco and Peco with Anyrail looks like a dogs hind leg. Yuck.   Fun project though

Edited January 17, 2021 by DavidCBroad

[RobinofLoxley]

4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

That is the basic concept of my loft layout and authority problems led to its abandonment.  It was DC automatic control but while the logic allowed trains to run in sequence it couldn't cope if the sequence was interrupted before all trains had returned to storage. T simplify control you need to get rid of the conflict between up and down trains on the top of the helix. I'll have a doodle later.

Edit   Any chance of a drawing showing available area, not "Scenic and non scenic but available area because this a a bit of a monster even with a 2ft radius helix  theY arrangement will eat lots of space..  I think the helix needs to be 2ft on the inside with the up track on the inside and the up track rising a whole turn more than the inside to avoid conflicts.  The pointwork you have drawn is essentially not available from Peco and Peco with Anyrail looks like a dogs hind leg. Yuck.   Fun project though

Without scaling you cant tell if the pointwork is possible or not. Its a massive project and if you (OP) dont get it drawn out properly in more detail you will flounder. You already have 2 reversing loops on your drawing BTW. I doubt you would want an approach to a helix with still more curves, but there are people who have built them that might advise you.

 

If this is your first layout I would build something simple to start with, but leave the acess open to get the helix in. Much much more complex from a constructional standpoint to build 2 layers, many things to think about - how good is your carpentry and general toolwork?

[33212]

Thank you for the replies. Sorry about the poor drawing. The available space is easily big enough and the drawing is just schematic to show what I could do, it’s not to scale. The loop to the right of the helix has to go round a chimney stack that runs through the loft, and is about a four feet square, but the track loop once it passes the chimney has about 15 feet of space in which to turn back. It needs to go round the chimney as there is not room for spiral and that return loop on the area to the left of the chimney breast, but there is plenty if the track comes round it. 
 

This is the second big layout and is using the refreshed storage roads from a previous German themed layout, which had similar complex junctions to distribute trains around, the only difference was that the scenic boards were at a similar height to the storage boards, connected via a series of ramps. I changed quite a bit of the point work to change the layout from German right hand running to British left hand running, but things have moved on and it’s time to start again.
 

The new layout is having the scenic boards much higher to future-proof against me getting old and being unable to kneel down for long periods, and thus drives the plan above, to be able to bring trains up (no automation) and go either way round the scenic section. 
 

Will knock up a more schematic plan later hopefully,
 

Thanks for the replies

 

Matt

 

[Chimer]

Personally, I can't imagine why anyone with 28' to play with would feel the need for a helix, but perhaps a scale drawing will answer that question ....

 

For consideration, take two double junctions in opposite directions off the scenic circuits, maybe single these branches once they're out of sight, and take them round the outside edges of the layout space down to your storage tracks.  I did a design once which worked a bit like that  (in much less space!), included so you can perhaps see what I mean ....

 

 

Others then took this idea on further in the thread by offering different designs for the junction, amongst other things.  But I offer it to you as an idea, as you've got the length to drop a good way down to your storage roads if you need them well below main board level.  Got to be simpler than a helix ......

 

Cheers, Chris

[33212]

10 hours ago, Chimer said:

Personally, I can't imagine why anyone with 28' to play with would feel the need for a helix, but perhaps a scale drawing will answer that question ....

 

For consideration, take two double junctions in opposite directions off the scenic circuits, maybe single these branches once they're out of sight, and take them round the outside edges of the layout space down to your storage tracks.  I did a design once which worked a bit like that  (in much less space!), included so you can perhaps see what I mean ....

 

 

Others then took this idea on further in the thread by offering different designs for the junction, amongst other things.  But I offer it to you as an idea, as you've got the length to drop a good way down to your storage roads if you need them well below main board level.  Got to be simpler than a helix ......

 

Cheers, Chris

Thank you for the thought, I did think about ramps / grades rather than a Helix but got the impression that ramps are just as much trouble.  I have ordered a Helix so am now going that route, all the stock is ‘diesel’ loco or EMU so should not have traction issues. Will determine the maximum train length once it is installed.

 

I spent far to long late yesterday evening learning Anyrail and knocked up the plan below to better explain the sketch above. It should work but will draw out a scale plan once I have measured out the loft properly. 

 

 

[Zomboid]

Is there not space to have a more conventional triangle at the top of the helix? That arrangement has every route to or from the helix crossing a diamond of some sort, whilst a triangle would have a couple which didn't, so would have fewer conflicting moves.

 

You could even do grade separation on some routes if you want.

[Kris]

A grade separated triangle could added a really interesting scenic area. 

[Zomboid]

I've no idea if this would fit, but scenically it could be be pretty fun if it does.

Grade separation on all routes would be a proper rabbit warren job. Since the OP wants a helix, gradients aren't an issue so something like this takes advantage of that.

 

Of course the advantage of the suggested design is that if the wrong train is brought up from the low level, it can just be sent back via the Ely style balloon loop, but with a triangle it has to complete a lap before being sent back from whence it came.

[Kris]

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Grade separation on all routes would be a proper rabbit warren job. Since the OP wants a helix, gradients aren't an issue so something like this takes advantage of that.

 

Grade separation on all routes is not that complex. It only adds one more bridge. My diagram only shows a single bridge for the 2 lines coming to and from the far line but in reality this would be better with 2 bridges (unless your trains can perform a 90degree turn as shown  )

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

Yes, not especially completed schematically, but there's one line that goes both over and under (or I suppose to double height), and the space required for that might get problematic.

[Kris]

Lots of gradients, however for the lowest line on the down slope you can get away with a much steeper gradient than for an up line allowing for some space reduction.