AlfaZagato Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Does anyone make a kit of what seems to be a somewhat common Beyer-Peacock 0-6-0 type? I've seen photos & mention of the B-P type on many joint & small railways, both pre- and post-Grouping. I personally kind of like the type. I am also, personally, terrible at picking out detail differences between members of a class. Would there be a market for an RTR tender locomotive with probably a dozen different liveries? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 AFAIK There isn't really a generic BP 0-6-0 in the way you describe. Beyer Peacock were more famous for their outside cylinder 4-4-0 Tanks for the London Underground railways and the smaller 3ft gauge 2-4-0 Tanks for the Isle of Man in their earlier years and their Big articulated Beyer Garratts of the early to middle 20th Century than for 0-6-0s. Like most independent UK locomotive builders they built many locos to Railway company designs, and as their works were next to the Great Central Railway's Gorton works they built GC locos and there was a lot of cross fertilisation of design between the two. However unlike US manufacturers they didn't really build a standard (0-6-0) design to sell to different railways. Others like Pecketts and Manning Wardle did seem to make everything they supplied conform to their house style. The most prolific UK 0-6-0 was the LNWR DX class with over 1000 produced a few of which struggled on into the 1930s, and their younger siblings the Coal Engines and Cauliflowers managing maybe another 500 units. Few people are interested in them. The Midland 0-6-0s are more popular among modellers as they remained in main line service much later into the 1960s, and equally so do the Great Central J11 Pom Pom. The 0-6-0 was the standard British go anywhere do anything loco as the 4-4-0 was in the USA but apart from 2 inside cylinders, six driving wheels, cab at the back and chimney at the front there was pretty much nothing standard between those running on different railways and even some classes hardly had any two anything like the same. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 They built loads of them. The only problem is they were mostly made for export and were usually not standard gauge. Mainly built for Ireland, India, Australia, South Africa, South America, etc. This is typical. Builder's photo of a South Australian Railways broad-gauge (1600 mm / 5 ft 3 in) 0-6-0 J class tender locomotive manufactured by Beyer, Peacock and Company, Manchester UK, delivered in 1875. From the collection of Mr Henry Coathupe Mais, Chief Engineer of the South Australian Railways. Rare in the UK though the M&SWJR had some which were later rebuilt by the GWR. Some details and photos here. Jason 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 That looks very like the LSWR Ilfracombe Goods, a standard Beyer Peacock product, already supplied to Sweden, which was also standard gauge. Several went to the three southern Colonel Stephens' lines after mainline use. Branchline do two kits in 4mm, I think for the original version as per the photo, and the LSWR rebuild version. Photo courtesy of Colonel Stephens Society The majority of LSWR locos ordered by the Beatties, father and son, were heavily BP based, and they had heavier BP designed double framed goods locos and saddle tanks as well. (Chivers did, long ago, a white metal kit for the saddle tank.) They also had BP "Metropolitan" 4-4-0 tanks, the well known Beattie well tanks (2-4-0WT) were BP's improvements of an earlier design, the single framed 0-6-0 class was another BP adaption of an earlier class. The South Western Circle have just published an excellent monograph of "An Album of Beattie Locomotives", and within is a comment that "A recent examination of LSWR orders to Beyer Peacock shows clearly that all locomotives built at Nine Elms between 1855 and 1875 were assembled from components supplied by Beyer Peacock." 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Rare in the UK though the M&SWJR had some which were later rebuilt by the GWR. They also supplied the 2-6-0's which were a standard Australian export type. The MSWJR pair were supposedly a South American order that fell through. I always thought the Swindon rebuilds of the 0-6-0's and the 4-4-4Ts spoiled the looks, taper boilers and Belpaire fireboxes just didn't look right on them. Edited January 17, 2021 by AdamsRadial 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 The Belfast & County Down seems to have obtained its locos exclusively from Beyer Peacock 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said: They also supplied the 2-6-0's which were a standard Australian export type. The MSWJR pair were supposedly a South American order that fell through. I always thought the Swindon rebuilds of the 0-6-0's and the 4-4-4Ts spoiled the looks, taper boilers and Belpaire fireboxes just didn't look right on them. Funnily enough I was looking at the 4-4-4Ts and Galloping Alice earlier. The kits anyway. https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/11/4mm-scale-etched-loco-kits/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I can't think of any obvious kit-bashes or RTR chops that could end up with a BP 0-6-0. I'd love one of the outside framed ones myself, the East & West Junction Railway had one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaZagato Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 It was actually the E&WJR that brought this to my mind. I thought them attractive. I had also remembered the M&SWJR locomotives, which is why I had thought they might be a regular type. Somehow, I missed that the E&WJR types were outside framed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) Even the GWR had some, outside framed "322" class, one of which much rebuilt,lasted until around 1930. "Keyser" did a kit which claimed to be one. The Cambrian Railway had a few inside frame ones too. Edited January 18, 2021 by Phil Traxson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Patrick SPF Posted January 18, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2021 Various Swedish Railways both state and private purchased a number of BP standard gauge engines, 0-6-0 tender engines among them along with 0-6-0T, 2-4-0 mixed traffic tender engines and 2-2-2 bloomer express locos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Phil Traxson said: Even the GWR had some, outside framed "322" class, one of which much rebuilt,lasted until around 1930. "Keyser" did a kit which claimed to be one. The Cambrian Railway had a few inside frame ones too. Not really, The Cambrian had Beyer Peacock built 0-6-0 locos yes, but they were to Cambrian design (Originally supplied by Stephenson), nothing to do with Beyer Peacock "standards" , the GWR or anyone else. They also had some second hand Metropolitan 4-4-0s, a couple of which were rebuilt as Tender locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) The M&CR had several 0-6-0's built by Beyer-Peacock that were seemingly a 'standard' B-P design. I've tried over the years to identify a suitable kit (e.g. 'Ilfracombe Goods', MR 2F, etc) as the basis for building one but nothing really fits the bill such it wouldn't be easier to scratch-build. Edited January 18, 2021 by CKPR 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamsRadial Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, AlfaZagato said: Somehow, I missed that the E&WJR types were outside framed. Only one was, I believe, I've buried the book beneath stuff and can't get to it right now. ETA got to a second book. It doesn't have an exhaustive list but has a photo of No 10, a delightful B-P outside-framed 0-6-0 complete with massive leaf springs above the running-plate outside the splashers. Then there's No 14, an outside-framed Belpaire firebox loco, which does give a glimmer of hope for a bash (No 10 is round-topped). It looks like they had a batch of two distinct types, and the Belpaires might have come about in a rebuilding that is mentioned for several of them. There are distinct cab differences, No 10 and a couple of others have a resemblance to the Ilfracombe good while the others have a more "normal" type of cab. The book is "The Stratford upon Avon and Midland Junction Railway" by Arthur Jordan. Edited January 18, 2021 by AdamsRadial Fresh information 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 On 17/01/2021 at 04:49, Steamport Southport said: Rare in the UK though the M&SWJR had some which were later rebuilt by the GWR. Some details and photos here. Jason The MSWJR ones were non standard as they had a shorter wheelbase than normal which meant raising the boiler centre line, they also had flush top fireboxes and telescopic boiler barrels. They also had two different cabs, the first 6 were LNWR style, After the grouping the GWR swiftly bodged their standard No 10 taper boiler onto them and altered the Tenders to look like something the Hornby Tinplate bargain basement range which completely changed their appearance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2021 The Dutch railways also liked BP products. There are a number in Utrecht Railway Museum (well worth a visit) but not from my photos an 0-6-0, though a very nice 2-4-0. I built one of those Ks BP GWR 0-6-0s many years ago. Pretty daring for a novice, dealing with outside cranks. But I passed it on when I went EM as I didn't think I would be capable of converting it. If I came across a kit now I would be tempted to build another, even if it was not particularly accurate, as I could probably now cope with the changes needed - just - and would probably have enough information available to improve it visually. Sometimes knowing more has its disadvantages! Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) Another fan of 'generic' B P 0-6-0s here, and I agree I think they'd make a fantastic RTR model. Proto-literate, plausible but flexible, perfect for the recent ranges of generic 4/6 wheel coaches etc. The surest way to bring about an announcement of one RTR is to start developing one. 3D printed body shell for an RTR chassis* as a starting point, a project which has now begun in earnest. Whilst a clever and talented modeller of this parish is working on the CAD, I'm currently trying to find good visual references for the as-built 282/Illy Goods 4-wheel tenders. Any advance on that photo? I can find neither higher resolution nor alternative, but would love help finding leads to either... Cheers, Schooner *Picked for superlative running qualities rather than accurate wheelbase; your own compromises may vary. Edited June 8, 2023 by Schooner D'oh! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Schooner said: Another fan of 'generic' B P 0-6-0s here, and I agree I think they'd make a fantastic RTR model. Proto-literate, plausible but flexible, perfect for the recent ranges of generic 4/5 wheel coaches etc. The surest way to bring about an announcement of one RTR is to start developing one. 3D printed body shell for an RTR chassis* as a starting point, a project which has now begun in earnest. Cheers, Schooner *Picked for superlative running qualities rather than accurate wheelbase; your own compromises may vary. Yes there is a huge gap in the market for a small loco to haul 5 wheeled coaches. and indeed I cannot recall ever seeing a model of a 5 wheel coach. I can't think of any suitable RTR chassis for the BP, looks a bit Wrenn R1 like to me, I think it will need a bespoke chassis to avoid looking nothing like the prototype like the Wills (?) GWR 22XX and 56XX or 'Bodyline kits or even the Triang 3MT 2-6-2T to mention a few. Personally I find if I can get some RTR coupling rods I can re drill existing RTR or Brass chassis and change the wheelbase. So many old locos were ruined by a bit of old rail bodged to act as coupling rods which looked far worse than even Triang's worst attempts. Edited June 8, 2023 by DCB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaZagato Posted June 8, 2023 Author Share Posted June 8, 2023 Yeah, a 3D-print or resin shell would probably trigger something. Shouldn't be too hard to make something that's 'right' enough to be 'wrong' for anything. Or make a DX shell. Pregrouping is getting ever more popular. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, DCB said: 5 wheeled coaches If in doubt, always carry a spare! Oops... 4 hours ago, DCB said: I can't think of any suitable RTR chassis for the BP Two thoughts on this: For an Ilfracombe Goods, nor could I. One of the two flavours of 1361 gives a suitable 2+1 vibe, but the drivers are too small and (crucially) neither have a good reputation for running qualities, although some claim to have eked good performance from the Heljan chassis. CSP do a decent chassis kit for £21/71 of course, but by that point I think the dream of providing an easy 'in' for those dipping a toe in the pre-Grouping pool starts to fall apart. I think there's a risk that we take the Ilfracombe goods as a template for our 'generic BP 0-6-0' - it's very small, very cute, and very well-known in its various Light Railway guises - when really it was a bit of an oddity. Ditto the SS ex-CMR conversions, but how many of these would one of the big producers sell if they turned it out in 5 attractive liveries and gave it a marketing push? @Steamport Southport posted a really good example, to my eyes, above Which could only be a BP design, but could be built almost any year from 1850-1900 (well, ish!) and seen on almost any line from here to Oz (/'here to the UK' for our Australian contingent). In fact, that distinctive format can be seen above with six drivers, but also was used for 4-coupled and singles as below: (for export to India) (for export to...Sweden IIRC, low confidence) 3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said: ...something that's 'right' enough to be 'wrong' for anything. Nailed it! 3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said: Or make a DX shell Seems a bit cruel to 'generic' a DX, they definitely deserve proper treatment! Edited June 8, 2023 by Schooner Operating without a brain atm, apologies 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Could 5-wheel coaches have a place on a helical railway - climbing Mt Etna or something - with 3 on the larger outer radius rail, 2 on the inner...?! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jeremy Cumberland Posted June 8, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2023 I do like the photo in Schooner's first post, and if any manufacturer wanted a "generic" Victorian locomotive to go with their 4-, 6- (or even 5-) wheeled carriages then I think you could ask for little better. A bell-shaped dome over the firebox with Salter safety valves, a half-cab (and perhaps a version with just a weatherboard could be offered as an alternative). Inside cylinders, of course (where does the outside cylinder version in Schooner's later post come from?). The 4-wheeled tender adds just the right degree of quirkiness, but I suppose it would be cheap enough to offer a more typical 6-wheeled version with springs above the frames. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schooner Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said: where does the outside cylinder version in Schooner's later post come from? Sharp Stewart 0-6-0T for the Cornwall Minerals Railway, some later sold on to various lines and converted to tender engines when the GWR took over. See here for a very brief visual overview FWIW Beyer Peacock did manufacture outside cylinder locos which otherwise match your description - see the 2-4-0 in the background here, for example Gorton, 1858 but their most well-known o/s 2-4-0s were for Sweden Gothenburg, 1856 and had distinctive fittings Gorton, 1859 notably the boiler-top sand box. For interest, see ...none of which gets us any closer to the Ilfracombe Goods tender, but does help to pass the time :) But whilst the best 'generic' 0-6-0s came from B P, I think we should look to S S for 2-4-0s. For another day, perhaps. Edited June 8, 2023 by Schooner 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Try this: NSWGR Z19 Z19 Pictures with pictures: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 BP 679 for Sweden BP 809 in the Gavle museum, Sweden BP 1422 South Australia BP 1933 also Gavle museum or an outside frame version, BP 89, Midland Rly 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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