cypherman Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Hi all, I just bought another H/C castle today and a Hornby 2-6-0 Ivatt tender loco. Now the castle is considered vintage and collectable. But when does the Ivatt reach that heady stage. It was made in either 1978 0r 79 so it is about 41/42 years old now so is it or is it not. Just a thought. Edited January 17, 2021 by cypherman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Hmm. Well, when the Ivatt was made the HD Castle would have only been about 20 years old. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canal Digger Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Good question. The term vintage is subjective, probably depends upon your age, the younger that you are the later the cut off point. Vintage cars are from 1930 - 45, at some point that will have to re-defined or a new term used. What makes something collectible? I wish I knew then then I could make a fortune! I knew of someone who collected and showed at model railway shows(!?) coat hangers and airline sick bags, never got to see if they were ...... wait for it, wait for it, can use guess .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 hours ago, cypherman said: Hi all, I just bought another H/C castle today and a Hornby 2-6-0 Ivatt tender loco. Now the castle is considered vintage and collectable. But when does the Ivatt reach that heady stage. It was made in either 1978 0r 79 so it is about 41/42 years old now so is it or is it not. Just a thought. When most of the production has been chucked away as 'old tat', and more people want one than there are models left on sale. It's as simple as that! John Isherwood. 2 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I would say as soon as they stop manufacture and stocks have been cleared. I was already collecting Dublo etc. in the early seventies. The earliest production was already thirty years old by then of course. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium SR71 Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 I think values go up when the children who wanted them, or had them, get to a point where they have some spare income and nostalgia. I remember when the club I was associated with at the time was almost contemplating giving away complimentary Hornby HST's to visitors just to get them out of the club shop. These days I see they are going for reasonable money on eBay. I have also noticed that the prices for tinplate have shown some divergence recently presumably as the number of collectors has reduced? Mint and rare items still hold a premium but items that are in a more played with condition (even those that would be simple to put right) seem to have lost most of their former value in a lot of cases. Perhaps a lot of items will go through a period of collectability rather than becoming precious artifacts in perpetuity? 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) I appended an "agree" to cctransuk's post, then I withdrew it, because although I thinks he's spot-on at one level, there is a bit more to it than that. Some things are so blindingly-obviously well-designed, well-made and durable that people seriously cherish them even while they are still in production. These highly cherishable things are "instantly sought after" on the secondhand market, almost as soon as they aren't available to buy new, and a fairly high proportion of those made tend to survive, think the Hornby 0 gauge No.2 Specials, Schools, and Princess Elizabeth, much of what Bassett Lowke sold, Hornby Dublo, a lot of Maerklin stuff etc. My gut feeling is that they have an intrinsic appeal which will outlast the generation of boys who were their initial owners. This "cherishable" quality that revolves around being well-made and durable applies not only to toy trains, but some other mass-produced products too, think Series 1 Landrovers (a very high proportion survive compared with other contemporary vehicles), Velocette motorbikes, and even certain toasters and coffee makers. Toy train things that aren't especially well-designed, well-made, or durable are collected on either a "curiosity value" basis, or a "completist" basis ("I must have one to complete the set"), and are much more at the whim of individual interest, personal nostalgia, fashion and fad, and while someone is interested/nostalgic, or they are in fashion, they can become very sought after, because being tat, the vast majority of them got chucked away after a bit. Then there are "artificial collectibles" made and sold for collectors, which are very often pure marketing-nonsense, and most probably slip sideways into the "tat" bracket fairly quickly. "Vintage" in the toy train context seems to be such an elastic term as to be almost meaningless at present, and it might be more useful if it came to have a commonly accepted meaning, maybe "greater than fifty years old", in the same way that "antique" is generally understood to mean greater than a century old. I reckon the Ivatt 2-6-0 will only become "collectable" on the basis of nostalgia or completism, because it has no intrinsic appeal on a "well-made and durable" basis. I haven't mentioned prices at all in the above, because that is almost a separate subject. It is about supply and demand, so for a fixed supply of out-of-production items it is really only about how many people want one at a given time. And the word "collectable/collectible", is it simply short-form for "something for which demand in the secondhand market at least equals supply"? Edited January 17, 2021 by Nearholmer 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carne Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 All I can say, in answer to the question what age does something become collectable, join the Train Collectors Society, and you will discover there really is no lower limit on when a thing is collectable, basically, it's collectable when someone collects it. As for the word "vintage", it seems to be applied to almost anything and everything, and seems rather meaningless to me at least. Just loom at all the ebay listings that include the word vintage. Mark 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Doesn't eBay prove that some things become "Collectable" even while they are still in production, still in stock at retailers, and selling on eBay for twice the current retail price? 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 'Collectable' seems to be a buzz-word applied to junk to make it seem attractive to the gullible. To judge by certain public figures*, there are a lot of these around. Strictly, a collectable item has to be either 'rare' ** or in 'mint' *** (or at least 'excellent') condition (preferably with its box) or better still both. * No names to protect the guilty, insert your own choice.... ** Another much over-used buzz-word. *** It means just that - in unmarked, original ex-factory condition. A single chip is enough to downgrade the item. The usual advice for grading is to put it one level below what you think it is. Edited January 18, 2021 by Il Grifone 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Il Grifone said: Strictly, a collectable item has to be Strictly? Dictionary definitions make no mention of this, and there are oodles of examples of things that are collected, but which meet neither criterion. Edited January 19, 2021 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Agreed. Perhaps I was being a little pedantic (nothing new), but the usual advice is to buy only the best you can afford. This is presumably intended for those who consider collecting = investment and not those, like me, who consider restoration part of the fun. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2021 A lot of things that are produced as 'collectables' end up by being cheap as chips, because so many were made and because interests change. You only have to look at the prices of most Yesteryear models in charity shops now. Dinky toys weren't sold as collectables, they were toys and because they were played with in most cases they got a bit battered. So the rare ones that have been preserved with their boxes can command decent sums. I have looked on the specially minted crowns or the commemorative plates as purely marketing ploys, with absolutely no guarantee of them working out as investments, despite the inference that they will be of value in years to come. Some model railway manufacturers seem to feed into the collectors market by the relatively short runs and vast array of liveries. Railway modellers seem to have to compete with the railway model collectors. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Maybe the Hornby Railways Ivatt 2-6-0 loco compares badly in correct details with the much later Bachmann versions, but the X.03 (New type) motor is more easily maintained and spare parts common than a lot of the more recent models. There is less detail to fall off as well... As the production run of the two liveries, BR black and green, made (The proposed LMS black model was not actually released) wasn’t very long, there are possibly less of the Hornby ones around now... it all depends on your definition of well made...the Hornby loco is very resilient. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Depends. Some things are instantly "collectable" and "valuable". Look through your kids collections that look like they are just worthless junk... https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/362931142416?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=362931142416&targetid=882134734012&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9075129&poi=&campaignid=9441192234&mkgroupid=96850532638&rlsatarget=pla-882134734012&abcId=578896&merchantid=110785797&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5J_Oksem7gIVAe3tCh1QKQ3pEAQYBCABEgJrcPD_BwE Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Limited edition with certificates implies that something is meant to be scarce and collectable. Often it is merely marketing hype about something for which there isn't really enough demand to warrant a decent production run. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted January 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2021 Also, distinguish between collectible and souvenir. Lionel's pink and pastel "Girl's Train" became a rare collectible because no sane person bought one in the 50s. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 My late mother-in-law spent a FORTUNE on 'collectable' plates from magazine adverts. To her they were an investment and legacy and In her will were left to my wife and her siblings as 'themed' sets. After she passed away a few years ago we could hardly give them away. Total waste of money which she could have put to far better use during her later years. 6 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 As far as Hornby Dublo is concerned, they seem to be collectable/vintage because "they don't make them like that any more", with a nostalgic sigh. Of course, where the Metrovic C0-B0 is concerned, its more "thank god". Whether they continue to be collectable when the cohort who coveted them in their youth leave the stage is another matter. As for the Hornby Ivatts (R852/7), they're of their time so there's no point in complaining about the lack of accuracy. I don't think they're collectable in any way (even though I have one of each...), but if you're running a retro trainset, they're not to be sniffed at. They're not quite as aesthetically distasteful as a Sir Dinadan.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 32 minutes ago, Hroth said: Whether they continue to be collectable when the cohort who coveted them in their youth leave the stage is another matter. I honestly believe that they will. Not by the same number of people, but by younger people who appreciate their qualities. I can’t imagine there is now anyone left now who had a brand new Bing for Bassett Lowke LSWR M7 bought for them as a boy, but by golly are they collectible, by people who appreciate their qualities. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) Surely NO ONE is ever going to collect the Bradford Flying Scotsman clock and similar junk? I won't even put it in my search engine to find the correct title, because the last time I did, it got offered to me for months! Edited January 19, 2021 by kevinlms More information 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 15 minutes ago, kevinlms said: Surely NO ONE is ever going to collect the Bradford Flying Scotsman clock and similar junk? I suppose SOMEBODY must otherwise why would they keep offering it?! Perhaps it's asorted aunts, grannies etc. who see it and buy it - " I saw this and thought of you 'cos like trains don't you!" 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) That is a classic piece of junk. They probably keep offering it because they still have a lot of them to unload? There was also a telephone shaped like an US steam locomotive. I wanted one until I saw the price (around £70 IIRC). In any case, SWMBO said no.... A search shows it would have been a great investment - not! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Locomotive-Train-Crescent-1925-landline-phone-telephone/164636634626?hash=item26551bae02:g:QwIAAOSwCrhf-ys3 Edited January 19, 2021 by Il Grifone 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) There seems to be a strong link between collecting and investment in many minds, but there are plenty of motivations to collect that aren't driven by money, which is a good job really, because in model/toy trains barely anything holds good in the long term against inflation, let alone makes a profit, even quite rare and exotic things. "Completism" is a common motivation, everything in the 1963 Hornby Dublo catalogue, or all the different wagons made by Winteringham for Bassett Lowke in the 1930s, etc, but plain old historic curiosity, or a love of a certain aesthetic, or a desire to cosset the waifs and strays of the railway modelling world, or, or ........ most of these are, to a greater or lesser extent, sure-fire ways of "wasting money", but they do bring a lot of satisfaction to people, me included. Some of what goes on with modern limited-edition r-t-r doesn't qualify as collecting, IMO, it looks much more like short-term speculation; buy, hoard, sell on a rising market. If you are very smart, such speculation possibly might beat inflation, but I'm not convinced it can dependably do so, and I'm sure more people have lost by trying it than have gained. Edited January 19, 2021 by Nearholmer 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted January 19, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2021 24 minutes ago, Il Grifone said: That is a classic piece of junk. They probably keep offering it because they still have a lot of them to unload? There was also a telephone shaped like an US steam locomotive. I wanted one until I saw the price (around £70 IIRC). In any case, SWMBO said no.... A search shows it would have been a great investment - not! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Locomotive-Train-Crescent-1925-landline-phone-telephone/164636634626?hash=item26551bae02:g:QwIAAOSwCrhf-ys3 Haha, I have a landline phone in the shape of a class 91, the lights flash when it rings! Abdi 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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