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At what age does something become collectable and vintage.


cypherman
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I do N gauge nowadays and certainly don’t class myself as a collector. Having said that I could be tempted to collect a Trix Western and some Trix coaches to go with it. These aren’t the greatest models and they are a peculiar scale but there is something about them that I like. It could be that it just takes a few people who can see something in a particular model to make it collectible. 
 

There is a certain charm to some of the Hornby Dunlop models - the Duchess, 8F, Castle and West Country - but there are some best forgotten- the Deltic for instance. It’s hard to see the 2-6-0 becoming a classic. Another loco I’m quite fond of which perhaps deserves to be a classic but isn’t is the Triang 3F from the old smoky set. So far as I am aware this was the first instance of a weathered model being put on sale which makes it of historic interest.

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I agree, the Old Smoky locomotive is probably the first factory weathered locomotive.

 

The weathering is mainly brown, and does vary from loco to loco in its application, some have more weathering than others.

 

Photos from the internet, as our models are not available just now...

 

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IMG_1017.jpg.c297eddccd2c0a1c3850b8c58d92dc0d.jpg

Edited by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo
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Someone I knew, who died some years ago, had a large coarse scale 3 rail layout in his loft, mainly Bassett Lowke locos and exley coaches, also lot of trucks and excellent buildings he made himself. The BL stuff was very expensive back in its time and he thought that when he might want to downsize the layout they would be very valuable.  However he found that the interest in that sort of model wasn't strong when he was looking for buyers and offers weren't as good as he expected.  Ace trains and the like had entered the market and set a price level for let's say a tinplate O gauge course scale A4.  If you wanted that sort of layout you could now buy new and if you were a Bassett Lowke collector you probably had the  more common engines anyway.  But he'd had a lot of fun out of it over many years, it just wasn't the ultimate investment!

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The old Hornby Dublo 2 rail stuff generally looks good, is dimensionally fairly accurate,  is extremely reliable and robust and is very long lasting even if used regularly, derailed etc as log as it is regularly serviced every 20 years or so. It also runs, indeed was designed to run on code 100 rail.   Even a tatty Castle is worth £50.  The Triang Hornby Ivatt Mogul, by contrast has a nice motor, doesn't look much like what it's supposed to be and has fairly fragile valve gear and body.  It can be tarted up with the front pony truck wheels pushed further forward, and tender shortened by it still won't run nicely on Peco code 100 without altering the wheels, I reckon a tatty one would struggle to sell for £15 and even mint boxed would struggle to make £40.

30/40 years ago Hornby Dublo 3 rail fetched good money, The Gresleys and artic coaches silly money. 40/50 years ago it was Tinplate O gauge, but the prices have fallen in actual sticker prices, and plummeted compared to inflation.   The Bassett Lowke steam Mogul was like the Holy Grail until they made a new batch and values crashed I think even Wrenn, in my experience a badly made H/D imitation, seems to have peaked.  The Spam Can a really badly engineered and made load of ***** which took me hours to sort out the chassis on seems to attract silly money and then pack up.  Even a boxed unused 08 I had expired after 30 feet of running.   It all depends what folk think stuff is worth.   Sometimes you put stuff on eBay for 99p and no one is interested and then you try £20 and people start bidding.  Its good. I just love buying rubbish cheap and selling it on for twice the amount. Anyone want a rare Hornby Ivatt 2-6-0?  £995 anyone  (its i my scrap box in bits.)

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I think that "collectable" is being used in this thread as meaning "likely to increase in value and retain its value", which, in my book, is different to "collectable".

 

To me "collectable" applies more to the condition of the item than its rarity or potential to increase in value. I would prefer it to be as close to mint as possible and in its original box in a matching condition, but as long as I want it and think the condition is reasonable and the price matches the condition then I'll buy it. I'm not interested in the possibility that it will increase in value. If it does increase in value, that's a bonus. And I accept that items may well fall in value, and I may make a loss were I to choose to sell them.

 

It is very difficult to spot the items that will increase and retain those increases, as it depends on the number of people who want the items and the number available once they are no longer made. That applies to almost everything, not just model railways. If you watch TV programmes like "Bargain Hunt" you'll often hear the auctioneer say that "XYZ" used to attract good prices but no longer do.

 

With our hobby, we have to recognise that the 1950s represented the high water mark in terms of popularity and sales. Many of those models are probably still in the hands of their original owners, who may also have been buying items that they couldn't afford as kids, which will have underpinned prices. But those folks are getting older, and sooner or later their models and collections will be put up for sale. So we will inevitably see more and more models coming up for sale which will push down prices, and the number of potential buyers will fall as, regrettably, our hobby is less popular with younger people. This will depress prices. Does that make items with falling prices "uncollectable"?

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I keep making the point that some things are collected without reference to value, present or future, and indeed without much reference to condition in plenty of cases.

 

People often collect things simply because they like them, find them interesting, or fascinating. In fact, I would argue that collecting in any field always starts like that, because if only one person is collecting a thing, it has collecting-value only to that person, to everyone else it’s potential firewood, scrap-metal, recycled plastic beads, a useful door-stop, or whatever.

 

Collecting-price creeps in once there are two or more collectors, and all the guff about investment value and everything else creeps in once people think there is money to be made, and interest/fascination begins to be elbowed aside in favour of dollar signs rolling in the eyes.

 

The Train Collectors Society, of which I’m a member, isn’t composed of sharp-eyed money-spinners, it is to be frank, populated by amiable eccentrics and shameless anoraks. Ditto The British Two Stroke Club that my brother belongs to (and boy does he collect old vehicles without reference to initial condition!), and the club that specialises in old lawnmowers, and the trustees of the Cumbrian Pencil Museum, and so it goes on.

 

Collectables are things that are collected. Simple as that. Which, funnily enough, is what dictionaries define the word as meaning.

 

Whether you collect them because they interest/fascinate you, or because you have OCD, or because you hope to make a bob or two, only you know.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Discarding the 'investment' angle, which only only partially interests me. (A rare item at a bargain price is always nice.  :) )  A collection is just that - my family considers trains a waste of money and space  :scratchhead: . I try  to have at least one of every Dublo item (it started as pre-nationalisation, then all 3 rail tinplate... and ended up as everything!)

 

With antiques etc.. there is a certain amount of fashion involved.

 

I found a item on YouTube of the 5 worst 'collectables'. Most were American and I'd never heard of them, but one was Beanie Babies - we have a large box of these! The manufacturers killed them by artificially saying they'd finished production and then soon after starting another series, but by then everyone had lost interest.

Edited by Il Grifone
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And on the question of how old something has to be before it becomes collectable, he answer is very simple, any age.

 

The limited edition "Rocket" set in a Tri-ang Railways box marketed by Hornby as part of the Hornby centenary celebrations last year was instantly collectable as soon as it was announced. So there is an example of an item that was "collectable" from before it was even made.

 

I bought it just for the pleasure and nostalgia of buying Tri-ang Railways again, almost 50 years after the brand disappeared, and because I did not have one of the original Tri-ang models. Tri-ang was my introduction to OO over 60 years ago, and seeing a new item in a Tri-ang box, still with the "same" address was wonderful. For too long the current Hornby company seemed to deny its true origins, Rovex, preferring to concentrate on the Hornby name. So Rocket was, to me, a long overdue acknowledgement of its Tri-ang Railways heritage and pedigree (no pun intended - Pedigree was also a Lines Bros. brand for those too young to remember.) 

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There are people who collect Pedal Cars and Doll's Prams. I had a splendid one of the former, though I never did find out what make it was. Another Lines product was large lorries and cranes. Collecting these requires lots of space - even more than trains!

 

My car was similar to this one, but had a flat grille rather like a pre-war Ford model Y. The wheels seem to be the same, so mine could well have been Lines as well.

 

https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/classic-car-images/triang-pedal-car.jpg

Edited by Il Grifone
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Somewhere, I have a 35mm colour slide that my father took, showing my brothers and I, me aged about six, the others younger, with our noses pressed to the window of the toy shop, clearly in December by our coats and the snow, the window being absolutely filled with those big Triang lorries, cranes etc  -  the window on the other side of the door was similarly filled with girls' toys in those very gender-divided days.

 

Out of this, Father Christmas somehow got inspired to bring an excellent large lorry, the back being full of blow-moulded plastic milk churns with different coloured tops for me to propel round the floor.

 

Any collector of such things would now wade through swamps to own the contents of that window!

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I can remember at the age of ten being one of a crowd all gazing in admiration through the shop window at one of the first 'Bristol Castles' .  I was very jealous of my friend getting his at the beginning of December, while I had to wait for Xmas!

 

She's still going strong despite conversion to 2 rail and back to 3 rail, repainting, and acquiring a Hawksworth tender as 7017 G.J. Churchward.

Edited by Il Grifone
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15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I keep making the point that some things are collected without reference to value, present or future, and indeed without much reference to condition in plenty of cases.

 

People often collect things simply because they like them, find them interesting, or fascinating. In fact, I would argue that collecting in any field always starts like that, because if only one person is collecting a thing, it has collecting-value only to that person, to everyone else it’s potential firewood, scrap-metal, recycled plastic beads, a useful door-stop, or whatever.

 

Collecting-price creeps in once there are two or more collectors, and all the guff about investment value and everything else creeps in once people think there is money to be made, and interest/fascination begins to be elbowed aside in favour of dollar signs rolling in the eyes.

 

The Train Collectors Society, of which I’m a member, isn’t composed of sharp-eyed money-spinners, it is to be frank, populated by amiable eccentrics and shameless anoraks. Ditto The British Two Stroke Club that my brother belongs to (and boy does he collect old vehicles without reference to initial condition!), and the club that specialises in old lawnmowers, and the trustees of the Cumbrian Pencil Museum, and so it goes on.

 

Collectables are things that are collected. Simple as that. Which, funnily enough, is what dictionaries define the word as meaning.

 

Whether you collect them because they interest/fascinate you, or because you have OCD, or because you hope to make a bob or two, only you know.

 

 

Nearholmer, I think you have summed it up as succinctly as is possible.

 

I'm very proud to be a TCS member, it's a fantastic club, as you say, full of interesting people who are genuinely interested in the subject, and not monetary worth. I for one would still collect the things I collect, even if they were 10p each, it would suit me fine, as I could just have lots more!

 

And on the diversity of what people collect, most of you shouldn't really be surprised that there is a milk bottle collecting club.

 

Mark

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To REALLY appreciate 'collecting' watch 'American Pickers' on the telly.  The 2 guys who star in it visit all sorts of strange places across the US of A and find barns FULL of 'stuff' (including the occasional Lionel or American Flyer item) that their owners have (allegedly) 'collected'.  To me most of it comes under the 'hoarding' category rather than 'collecting' - but each to their own as the saying goes!

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9 minutes ago, 5050 said:

'hoarding' category rather than 'collecting'

 

But, where does the boundary lie? I surely don't know, but my good lady is of the opinion that she does, and that I am far on the wrong side of it, and TBH I only have a modest accumulation of toy trains.

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22 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

But, where does the boundary lie? I surely don't know, but my good lady is of the opinion that she does, and that I am far on the wrong side of it, and TBH I only have a modest accumulation of toy trains.

Collecting Vs Hoarding - Here's my stab at drawing the line between them.

 

To a collector what matters is the range and variety, and possibly most importantly, the conditions under which the items are kept, principally to stop them deteriorating. No collector wants to see their prized items gradually rotting away because theye are not taking good care of them Also to a collector duplication of identical items will only happen when they've found a better specimen than the one that they've already got. And collectors have a focus or target for their collecting, be it milk bottles, Pez sweet dispensers (remember them?), or Tri-ang railway items, or cigarette cards, etc., etc.. That's why I have a number of duplicates in my collection. Whereas to a hoarder, it seems to me to be the sheer number of items that matters to them, and duplication of identical items is quite acceptable. Also, judging by "American Pickers" (once you've seen one episode, you've seen them all, bit like "Salvage Hunters" IMHO), what they hoard seems immaterial (there doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to what they've got stashed away), and often they don't seem to want to keep their hoard in good condition.

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

But, where does the boundary lie? I surely don't know, but my good lady is of the opinion that she does, and that I am far on the wrong side of it, and TBH I only have a modest accumulation of toy trains.

 

For me it's once the ratio of runners to parts donors goes too far the wrong way. You can have as many of an item as you like but if they are all scrappers then it's hording. If anyone has seen Barn Find Hunters on YouTube then those with fields of rotting cars are hoarders but the few with fields of rotting cars *and* barns full of cars maintained/restored using the parts cars outside are collectors.

 

With trains it's a harder line to find. Those that want mint in box are collectors. Those that perhaps update models to keep them runnable are collectors? Some O gauge tinplate seems to hold its value even when fitted with modern motors and gearboxes because the originals have disintegrated or are presumably too fragile to use. Are they vintage collectors still?

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On 22/01/2021 at 15:46, SR71 said:

 

For me it's once the ratio of runners to parts donors goes too far the wrong way. You can have as many of an item as you like but if they are all scrappers then it's hording. If anyone has seen Barn Find Hunters on YouTube then those with fields of rotting cars are hoarders but the few with fields of rotting cars *and* barns full of cars maintained/restored using the parts cars outside are collectors.

 

With trains it's a harder line to find. Those that want mint in box are collectors. Those that perhaps update models to keep them runnable are collectors? Some O gauge tinplate seems to hold its value even when fitted with modern motors and gearboxes because the originals have disintegrated or are presumably too fragile to use. Are they vintage collectors still?

The barns with with the maintained/restored cars makes them collectors. Having a collection doesn't stop the items in the collection being used, unless it is so rare and in absolutely mint unused condition that just using it would be wrong. Indeed, for many collectors part of the joy of collecting is in using what they've collected, or at least put on display, to be enjoyed, be they expensive supercars or a humble Tri-ang steeplecabs, or a Trix or Hornby AL1s. I have a friend with a collection of supercars which they keep in pristine condition. But that doesn't stop them taking them to shows, concours d'elegance etc.

 

If they are being used, then parts will wear out. The older an item gets, the harder it will be to replace worn out parts with original components. In those cases, fitting modern equivalents when replacement parts cannot be obtained or made is entirely justifiable if the aim is to use the item, not just have it on static display. To me the item is still a vintage item if there are major components that were in the original. There is a similar debate in the classic car world, when you start having to replace body panels how far can you go before the item no longer can be classed as original but a reproduction. To absolute purists, replacing anything other than consumables is a no-no.  Jaguar planned to build 18 light weight E-Types in the 1960s, but only 12 were made. Then in 2015 Jaguar decided to make the missing 6 to the original spec as far as possible. But despite this, some purists don't accept the 6 new builds and regard them as inferior to the original 12 even though all 18 were made by Jaguar. https://www.jaguarusa.com/about-jaguar/heritage/lightweight-e-type-restored.html To me the moral of the story is that the extent to which parts can be replaced before the item is no longer "original" is an individual choice, and there is no hard and fast definition as it varies from person to person and item to item. 

Edited by GoingUnderground
To correct typo "only 6 made" to "only 12 made"
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Price is a factor of supply (availability) and demand (desire to own) and although 'collectability' can have an impact on demand it's not the only factor.

 

With regards to categories of collectable there are some loose terms that have a nominal age appended (but not firm and fixed) like antique (100 years), veteran (pre-1905), vintage (between the two world wars) and classic (40 years). But most are just fancy discriptions to make them more desirable and saleable to collectors and or vary their timings depending on product.

 

 

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2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 Jaguar planned to build 18 light weight E-Types in the 1960s, but only 6 were made. Then in 2015 Jaguar decided to make the missing 6 to the original spec as far as possible. But despite this, some purists don't accept the 6 new builds and regard them as inferior to the original 12 even though all 18 were made by Jaguar. 

Is there a maths miscalculation here? 

 

Garry 

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