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At what age does something become collectable and vintage.


cypherman
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4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

All of which must cause endless agonising at The Cumbrian Pencil Museum, whether to sharpen or not, and among milk-bottle collectors, whether to drink it before it all turns to an horrendous bacterial culture, thereby spoiling the foil cap.

It must do, as there isn't a "Cumbrian" Pencil Museum.

 

The pencil museum was created by the Derwent Cumberland Pencil Company, and I went round it in the 1980s whilst working at the pencil company in Keswick. Nowadays the museum is called the Derwent Pencil Museum. 

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17 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

I think most of us fall into the 'vintage' category,

but very few of us will become 'collectable'!

I've already been collected.

 

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18 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

  Jaguar planned to build 18 light weight E-Types in the 1960s, but only 6 were made. Then in 2015 Jaguar decided to make the missing 6 to the original spec as far as possible. But despite this, some purists don't accept the 6 new builds and regard them as inferior to the original 12 even though all 18 were made by Jaguar. https://www.jaguarusa.com/about-jaguar/heritage/lightweight-e-type-restored.html 

That was to provide a cheaper alternative to racing the "Irreplaceable" original lightweight E types in classic racing.  Whether it put a dent in the value of the other 12 is debatable, but there were at least 1/2 dozen folks queueing p to buy them, and with an engine which should do 50, 000 hard miles without much attention.  The new build Basset Lowke Steam mogul killed the value of mint boxed un steamed originals as my friend discovered as he had an original as an "investment!"     Cars are worse than trans in that collectors with no appreciation of the vehicles  are buying them and destroying them through disuse.   My neighbour, Geoffrey St John had a Bugatti which he used regularly, it was placed at LeMans when new  and had a two seat body, it immaculate and was worth £900K around 20 years ago, which is when he wrote it off in France.  However he rebuilt it from photos, by hand just like old Buggy did back in the day and found various idiosyncrasies like the left wing was 2" shorter than the right, he also worked on the engine, a straight 8 with crankcase and cyl block like a motorbike engine and gear driven OHC but the rebuild  didn't degrade the value.

Now we have horrendously expensive cars with belt drive cams which need a new belt every 24K or 5 years and no new belts available, or new brake discs or other consumables, icons worth millions to investors, but entirely useless as cars. 

Bit like early 2000s Hornby locos, some wore out, many disintegrated.  There must be many crumbling rotted examples in boxes in collectors caves.  The survivors will be worth a fortune in twenty years time

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Trix locos are notorious for disintegrating, particularly the motor bogies, and even the wheels. The "rot" is caused by impurities in the zinc alloy. Too much lead and as it expands over time it "explodes" the casting from within. The extent of the impurities is down to the business that formulated the zinc alloy, which many not have been the manufacturer of the model if the alloy was bought in. The importance of keeping the impurities as low as possible isn't always appreciated.

 

We moved in the last 70 years from an era where construction methods and component selection meant that items could be repaired or replaced to one of "planned obsolescence" where keeping the initial price as low as possible matters more than repairability. Speed of assembly and the reduction in the number of discrete components means that whole sub-assemblies have to be swapped out because it is not possible to take the sub-assembly apart without breaking it and making it unusable in the process.

 

Whether the pendulum will now swing back towards repairability very much depends on the pressure put on manufacturers to make their products more recyclable, or at least capable of non-destructive disassembly so that items that still have a life can be reused without discardign the entire assembly. A good example is the modern sealed can motor which has to be replaced with a new motor when the carbon brushes wear out, as opposed to the old Tri-ang X04 motor where each component could be replaced.

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38 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

Trix locos are notorious for disintegrating, particularly the motor bogies, and even the wheels. The "rot" is caused by impurities in the zinc alloy. Too much lead and as it expands over time it "explodes" the casting from within. The extent of the impurities is down to the business that formulated the zinc alloy, which many not have been the manufacturer of the model if the alloy was bought in. The importance of keeping the impurities as low as possible isn't always appreciated.

 

We moved in the last 70 years from an era where construction methods and component selection meant that items could be repaired or replaced to one of "planned obsolescence" where keeping the initial price as low as possible matters more than repairability. Speed of assembly and the reduction in the number of discrete components means that whole sub-assemblies have to be swapped out because it is not possible to take the sub-assembly apart without breaking it and making it unusable in the process.

 

Whether the pendulum will now swing back towards repairability very much depends on the pressure put on manufacturers to make their products more recyclable, or at least capable of non-destructive disassembly so that items that still have a life can be reused without discardign the entire assembly. A good example is the modern sealed can motor which has to be replaced with a new motor when the carbon brushes wear out, as opposed to the old Tri-ang X04 motor where each component could be replaced.

Some modern Bachmann and Hornby diesels made in the last 20 years suffered from Mazak rot which enlarged and split the bodies. 

 

The Hatton Beyer Garratt is an example of cheap assembly with a poor fit of the valve gear parts coming loose, and then, the wheels are held in place by a piece of plastic underframe GLUED to the frames so very risky to get any repairs done. That model is only good as a collectable non runner as it was sold, it had far too many issues mainly about the motors burning out afer an hour or less. For modern times a very poorly designed and poorly constructed model. 

 

Garry 

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1 hour ago, Silverfox17 said:

Some modern Bachmann and Hornby diesels made in the last 20 years suffered from Mazak rot which enlarged and split the bodies. 

True Mazak doesn't suffer from "rot" or "Zinc Pest", because by definition the zinc used is pure enough not to have that problem. https://diecastingandmetals.blogspot.com/2012/11/all-about-zamak-alloys-what-are-they.html Even if the Zinc starts out as being of the required purity, problems can arise if old zinc castings are added to the melt, as can happen from time to time. If those old castings contain too much lead, they can raise the lead content in the batch to a level where Zinc Pest or rot will happen. That is probably what happened in the case of the modern models that suffered from rot, a lack of quality control or an attempt to reduce costs by the sub-contractors in China.

 

Unfortunately, the name Mazak has become synonymous with Zinc alloy castings, in the same way that Hoover became synonymous with vacuum cleaners. or Google with internet search engines. 

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The zinc pest has been known since at least the late twenties, but the required purity was not appreciated until World War II. Pre-war Dublo and Trix is very liable. Post-war Dublo seems immune, Trix took a bit longer. That Tri-ang never suffered, but modern Hornby does, perhaps indicates something....

 

I believe the makers of Mazak were rather annoyed about inferior alloys being associated with their name.

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I have examples of Tri-ang Hornby small Synchrosmoke unit castings that have the impurity caused expansion and dismitigration...

 

One was in a “Jinty” from the Railway Children set.

 

The smoke unit casting had expanded, breaking apart the plastic body at the smokebox.

 

That should date that example.

 

Another that came loose in some parts is painted black, so probably from a BR B12 4-6-0... 

 

Possibly all from one faulty batch, or subcontracted manufacture?

 

 

Edited by Ruffnut Thorston
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One good thing about collecting old stuff is that if it has the pest that has usually become apparent, and a decision can be made on that basis - people happily buy Hornby 0 gauge with exploded wheels, and fit new ones, for instance. And, if I thing hasn't got evidence of it after 70+ years, it probably never will have. The worst semi-modern stuff for it seems to be Paya 0 gauge tinplate, which suffers pest of the cast detailing parts to a truly appalling degree, but again replacement parts are available.

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The wheels (both 0 and 00) seem to be the most affected. I suppose the vibration accelerates the process.

 

I still have to try the 'cure' from Rivarossi Memory. I've had the trielina* in stock for ages. but need to find some proper Araldite.

 

* Nasty stuff (banned for ages in the UK, I believe), but still available 'off the shelf' in Italy. If required, Google Translate will help with the following:

 

https://chimicaeindustria.it/2018/02/24/utilizzi-ancora-la-trielina-una-disgrazia-del-passato-di-cui-e-meglio-sbarazzarti-per-sempre-il-prima-possibile/

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I once had a Triang Minic ships SS Nieuw Amsterdam  liner with a similar problem, it actually fell in half. I tried gluing it back together with araldite but no use as it was just crumbling.

None of the other Triang Minic ships I've still got have had this problem.

Now here's a range that fits the "collectable"  criteria.  1:1200 scale, same as WW2 ship recognition models. Only sold between 1958 and 1964, reasonable range in different categories (liners, warships, workboats, harbours and accessories). The catalogue subdivides the warships into 8 categories so it would be possible to just collect  one or two groups. There were a lot made, so a good chance of still being able to track down at least most of them.  

They could have been used for "wargames" at the time but less likely to be damaged like wheeled toys such as Dinky Toys, so likely to be in reasonable condition. Nothing to break with the hulls, but funnels, and the plastic cranes and masts have been made as spares for collectors.

Also 2 later types, "Hornby Minic" from 1976 made in Hong Kong, quite a small range, and a recent range that Oxford Diecast have sold, made under the Triang name, mainly current ships like tankers and container ships, also some new and old style dock parts. 

But the original range is the genuine one! And they take up very little room.

Edited by railroadbill
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At some stage, our largest liner, RMS Queen Elizabeth, got confiscated by my mother, because one of us decided that it made a useful dagger when indulging in the sort of temper-fueled hand-to-hand combat that only brothers can have. I got it back some time later, and had to make new funnels for it - I think the first set got snapped off to make it easier to wield!

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Yet another of my mini collections! I have most of the early range (less some of the more exotic elements like whales). I avoided the naval ships,  apart from H.M.S. Turmoil, but a few have crept in over the years. I have added some plastic ships to the collection (cheap from Hong Kong) and a few Revell kits to the same scale. (Some of these have gone walkabout including a 'Titanic' (bought around 2012 during the centenary craze and to be 'Olympic'), an 'Aida', and a half built 'Yamata'). Revell kits always take ages because the parts never fit together properly or this just me? The hull of a larger scale 'Titanic' in particular was awkward (must finish her...).

Edited by Il Grifone
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On 22/01/2021 at 13:50, 5050 said:

To me most of it comes under the 'hoarding' category rather than 'collecting'

A few years ago, I contributed to some clinical guidelines on the definition, assessment and treatment of pathological hoarding . I have always assumed that I was asked to contribute because of my professional background and clinical experience, not because of my small collection of  pre-1960 Tri-ang toy trains.

Edited by CKPR
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On 24/01/2021 at 17:24, Il Grifone said:

The zinc pest has been known since at least the late twenties, but the required purity was not appreciated until World War II. Pre-war Dublo and Trix is very liable. Post-war Dublo seems immune, Trix took a bit longer. That Tri-ang never suffered, but modern Hornby does, perhaps indicates something....

 

I believe the makers of Mazak were rather annoyed about inferior alloys being associated with their name.

Early Farish is also prone, Kings and Bulleid Pacifics often pop up on eBay with diecast bits missing/detached...the 5MT and the Prairie on the other hand seem to fare better?

 

David

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On 17/01/2021 at 17:33, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I just bought another H/C castle today and a Hornby 2-6-0 Ivatt tender loco. Now the castle is considered vintage and collectable. But when does the Ivatt reach that heady stage. It was made in either 1978 0r 79 so it is about 41/42 years old now so is it or is it not. Just a thought.

 

If you believe the adverts in the Sunday magazines, stuff is sold as "collectable", usually the tackier and gaudier the better, ideally if it involves Elvis.

 

jch

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3 hours ago, David_Belcher said:

Early Farish is also prone, Kings and Bulleid Pacifics often pop up on eBay with diecast bits missing/detached...the 5MT and the Prairie on the other hand seem to fare better?

 

David

 

It's rather the luck of the draw. I have an early prairie of which the body is OK, but the chassis is reduced to a few broken bits. A later chassis is available to be fitted, but there are differences in the mountings. My G.P.5 is also OK and my King too unless the broken buffer is a first sign. My two Formo 0-6-0s and pannier tanks are also rot free, but I have seen an example of the latter affected.

Coach bogies are frequently(usually?) fractured and the Pullman chassis tends to expand and/or warp.

Wagon bodies are usually OK (I have a Formo van that isn't), but the underframe castings suffer badly.

Early Rivarossi suffers badly as well, but at least their plastic is Bakelite and not the highly unstable cellulose acetate relation that Farish used. Märklin wheels are usually cracked.

Gaiety and Trackmaster seem immune.

 

My collection is a hoard to the rest of the family., but they think Netflix films* are worth watching/sleeping in front of, which I reckon invalidates their opinion.  :secret:

*The one on at the moment is c**p even by their standards....

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I would like to add the Tri-ang Minic 'Bristol Queen' and/or 'Cardiff Queen' to my collection, but they seemto fetch rather more than their relatively modest original price (3/6d?). The real ships used to cruise in the Bristol Channel and I can remember going on one in my youth. 'Cardiff' IIRC, but it was a rather long time ago.

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80427482_11200liners.jpg.eca30db675f6a07e6f8a73b2204eb9b3.jpg

 

From top, RMS Queen Elizabeth,  SS United States and RMS Queen Mary.  These are later Hornby Minic, made in Hong Kong.  Ships of an era that is long gone.  I believe the United States was fitted with steam turbines that were the same design as those used in US aircraft carriers so very powerful and it was the Atlantic Blue Riband holder. Could do 35 knots which was 3 knots more than the other 2. 

 

 

928078443_11200Triangoriginalmodels.jpg.71ceeaf0aa7da8121a2b4a63e49bd6f8.jpg

 

These are original Triang-Minic, apart from USS New Jersey in front, which is a Revell kit.

The passenger ship is Isle of Sark which was a ferry going to the channel Islands.  The frigates are HMS Torquay in front (first Whitby class),  HMS Venus and Valiant, converted to Type 15 from V class in 1950s. The cruiser is HMS Superb. Varne lightship, harbour tugs, 2 xHMS Turmoils and 4 x Ton class minesweepers, 2x Repton, 2x Picton.  There were 8 names made for the Ton class but Picton and Repton seemed the most common... 

 

52006000_11200Triangminicshipspricelist.jpg.09184e381f210e782d37ba34f31ab16e.jpg

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7 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I would like to add the Tri-ang Minic 'Bristol Queen' and/or 'Cardiff Queen' to my collection, but they seemto fetch rather more than their relatively modest original price (3/6d?). The real ships used to cruise in the Bristol Channel and I can remember going on one in my youth. 'Cardiff' IIRC, but it was a rather long time ago.

I can vaguely remember seeing the Bristol Queen coming into Padstow harbour while  on holiday in North Cornwall.  Probably about 1965 or 66. It was doing an excursion.  I've got a Triang Minic "Britannia" which was the same as their Bristol Queen and Cardiff Queen but it's missing its funnels and masts.

You've raised an interesting point about having an old collection, what would one look for to expand it now? A particular ship, perhaps some of the dock accessories. H'mm.

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I suppose it's like any collection - one of each, though the dock accessories require several. Mine tries to match this and includes anything 1200:1 or 1250:1.

It's not helped by some of the ships being identical except for the name embossed underneath and does the later Hong Kong series count? These have wheels underneath on a plastic waterline.

I am unsure about a 'Queen Elizabeth' I have. She has all the Tri-ang markings but also two stubs which look like they are intended for the plastic wheel/waterline assembly.

 

Years ago I bought some plastic cargo ships and tugs. The latter look very like the Tri-ang product, but I suppose one tug does look much like another.

 

Steve Flowers (usual disclaimer) does some spare parts like the masts which tend to go missing. I have been intending to order some for ages.

http://model-supplies.co.uk/oddments.htm

Edited by Il Grifone
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