A returner's efforts - Lakeside/Carnforth?

[wildrover]

Hi everyone. First time I think I've ever posted on any forum, so any advice is welcome!

 

I've always had a 00 gauge train set in the loft since I was about 10, but haven't looked at it for a number of years. Over the last couple of months I've started to have a bit of a play with AnyRail and had a few ideas about starting a layout from scratch. I'd love to learn all the skills that I've seen on here (some of the photos I've seen are incredible) and see it as a bit of a long-term project, completing things whenever I have the time. 

 

My aims for the layout are a sort of U/L-shape, with a double-track loop with a station at one end,  with a branch line leading off to a hopefully interesting station, perhaps where I can do a shunting puzzle of some sort.  The pictures might explain it better (I've had to split it into two parts for the maximum 50 pieces on AnyRail). I'm not too fussed (yet) about it being completely accurate, but I currently aim to model the branch station on Lakeside (from the Lakeside & Haverthwaite) in perhaps the late 1940's as the family have quite a lot of connections in that area and I think it would be an interesting model.

 

For the station in the main loop, I don't have anywhere near enough space, but intend on making it look a bit like Carnforth as some family live near there - perhaps with the coal/ash towers, and I will hopefully be able to model the station front at some point! So family members might be able to look at it and it remind them of Carnforth is the main idea.  For the track layout in the loop, I'm happy for it to work and perhaps be modelled on something suitable for the space I have. 

 

I'd like to try my hand at DCC, building my own baseboards and giving everything a good go. The layout will be in the loft, and the small darker bits on the photos are roof trusses which I obviously can't move! They'll get in the way a bit but I'm happy enough to do the layout in the loft - I've read on here about it and whilst it's not totally ideal it is the only space I have. The bigger dark bits are how I'll need to be accessing the layout.

 

I quite like the idea of modelling based on something real life, and everything will be from scratch as all of my previous stuff is 20+years old and DC.

 

I'd really appreciate any thoughts and advice you could give - I know basically nothing compared to everyone on here!

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

This looks a pretty good start to me. Do I understand correctly that this loft is an open space and you have access everywhere until you block it by building baseboards.

 

I suppose we have 2 drawings to keep to the 50 piece trial version limit. So to the upper one first. It lacks a headshunt, which you need between the shed roads and the platform nearest them. In fact the headshunt can lead naturally to the turntable and you can add a couple of storage roads from the turntable itself. After that its not clear what your iintentions are as you have one track going to link to the second section, and one just ending in limbo. Need to know about this because suppose a train arrives in the left hand platform, it can't get across to the other line, and although the loco can use the run-around no loco can get to the other end of the train to pull it out anyway, unless it comes from the other section. 

 

The second section is quite good too. The more accurate designers here like to avoid facing point arrangements such as the cross-over at the 'bottom' of the through station. You need to be able to get from one track to the other, but how this might happen in real operations is that a train arrives in the LHS of the right island, call it platform 2; you show the crossover there that a train could use to arrive in platform 3. With the cross-over the other way (no facing points), the train stops in platform 2, the loco can uncouple and a different loco from the shed can couple up, facing the other way, and pull the train back across the crossover and back out in the opposite direction.

[simmo009]

Welcome Wildrover. For Carnforth inspiration,  try and get hold of Model Rails 'Ideas for Layouts' 2018 edition. This has 3 options of differing sizes. This is a big space. I would recommend something smaller as a first go so you can practice techniques such as board construction, wiring, track laying etc. I really found this worthwhile. Additionally, it gives you something to play with during the big build, as modelling fatigue can set in if you need to wait until the end. Also, there are some excellent YouTube channels such as Chadwick, Lakeside, Everard and Dean Park that are full of ideas and information. Best of luck.

Edited January 17, 2021 by simmo009

[Chimer]

A query first - what is the significance of the "grey-ed out" rectangles?  Can you get into them if you need to to sort out derailments etc?

 

And building on @RobinofLoxley's comment about the crossover near the shed area, it does need to be the other way round (trailing instead of facing), but also needs to be the other side of the point giving access to the branch line, enabling a train to leave the branch platform and cross to the inner circuit.  Or you could use a double slip instead of two of the points ....

 

 

Hope this helps ....

[wildrover]

Hi all

 

Really appreciate all your replies! 

 

Robin - you're correct it's an open loft space - it's currently insulated and has floorboards so I am just about to start with building the supports and baseboards. Hopefully the picture below sorts the headshunt issue out. The second line is a long siding - I got it from the signal diagram of Lakeside in this thread, but I'm not massively keen on it because of the need for it to be curved. I can't quite picture what you mean about the headshunt leading to the turntable, sorry, but I've tried to keep it as close to this signal diagram as I could. I aim to run max four carriage + tender engine length trains if possible

 

Simmo, thanks for the info on that magazine, I've ordered it today. And it's helpful to think of it in two parts - I think I'll concentrate on modelling the lakeside end first and just see if my old DC and settrack stuff still runs as a separate effort for now on the loop bit, so I'll have something to play with!

 

Chimer, that's really helpful - hopefully the efforts in the attached picture are an improvement. The grey bits are where I'll be standing and my 'route in' to the layout!

 

Thanks again everyone

[RobinofLoxley]

What I mean by a headshunt is that in order to carry out locomotive movements in the yard on the rhs there needs to be something between the yard and the main roads to catch something running away, this might as well be a siding  where firstly a locomotive can be moved out of the way so another can move, wagons  can be placed to shuffle them during shunting etc. But following from that one of the other things you can do is put the turntable on it. Even though it's not on a direct line from the station it's a much better position and more realistic if the turntable faces the station. Probably not very clear but it's late..

[Alan Kettlewell]

For interest here's a screenshot of a plan I made a while ago showing a Templot track plan overlaid onto an OS map of the layout at Lakeside.  This was a plan I fancied doing in 0 gauge but it was just too big for my shed so the plan didn't come to anything.  If you progress your idea I'd be happy to let you have photos of Lakeside (and Haverthwaite) I collated for the project. 

 

     

To give you an idea of the dimensions, the grid lines are at 1ft for 0 gauge so would be 6" for 00.

 

I thought the narrow gauge coaling line (right hand end) for servicing the Lake Windermere steamers was interesting.  Good luck with your project - you'll get lots of help on here.

 

Cheers ... Alan

Edited January 20, 2021 by Alan Kettlewell

[Zomboid]

Are you going to be operating on your own? If so, how do you feel about having to cross (presumably crawl under) the central board every time you run a train up or down the branch?

 

I think that would be enough to prevent me from using the branch.

[Chimer]

@RobinofLoxley - surely the long siding you note as "ending in limbo" in your first post (a) provides the trap for runaways from the loco shed and (b) acts as the headshunt (and trap) for the goods yard?

[Chris Turnbull]

I would like to suggest that you think hard about what you want from your layout as it seems to me that you are in danger of biting off more than you can chew.

 

You say you want to model Carnforth but admit you are tight for space.  You say you want a branch line terminus but, again, you have a lack of space.  If you are not careful you will become disheartened and lose interest.  I read many posts by people who, like you, are now in a position to realise their dreams but have become disillusioned.  Things don't always go to plan but it is not helped when those plans are flawed to start with.

 

Firstly, if it were me I would go for a layout that gives me a continuous run.  Why?  Because you will find that, from time to time all you will want to do is to sit back with a glass of wine / beer or cup of tea / coffee (choose drink of your choice) and watch the trains go by.  And getting those trains to go by as quickly as possible and with as few problems as possible is crucial to your enjoyment of the hobby.  Ask yourself this: do I really want to keep getting up and down to organise the next train to run into the station?  A bit of shunting, puzzling or otherwise, is good fun to begin with but, sooner or later, the novelty will wear off.

 

Secondly, have I really got room to do Carnforth shed justice?  The area of the shed was huge, the coaling and ash plants alone taking up more room than you have allocated for the entire shed.  This is the southern side of Carnforth shed  in July 1968. 

 

 

The coaling plant, though not one of the biggest, was still huge.  Compare one end of the tower to the locomotive.

 

 

The ash plant was smaller but is still a fair size.

 

 

You will also note that both structures allow locos to run through, they are not dead ends.  Also the coaling tower has to be fed with coal trucks and the ash plant has to be cleaned and the ash removed.  They are therefore not in line but are offset (see first photo). 

 

I could go on but I have probably already said enough.  So, what would I do?  Well...  If it were my layout I would go with the oval but move the station to the outside.  Put a small goods yard on the inside with goods shed and crane, coal staithes and cattle dock, not forgetting to allow room for lorries (or horses and carts depending on your period) to access the facility.  I say on the inside as I wouldn't want to have to reach over my layout to couple / uncouple (or re-rail) wagons.  I am not an orangutan, although some might say I am a monkey sometimes.  I wouldn't worry about a branch line initially although I would make passive provision, but would concentrate on getting something running as soon as possible.  Once I have reached that stage I would settle down with a bottle of wine (and I mean a bottle) and set a couple of trains running round.  Whilst they were trundling round, hopefully without mishap, I would be pottering about shunting the daily goods in the yard.

 

Of course, this will be your layout and you can do what you want.  You can ignore all the rubbish I have just spouted, you don't have to listen to me.

 

Whatever you choose to do, welcome to this great hobby.  May you have as many years enjoyment as I have done and continue to do so.

 

Chris Turnbull

Edited January 20, 2021 by Chris Turnbull

[DCB]

The terminus track plan is a mirror image of a very unusual prototype .    There was one main platform against the pier for the excursion traffic which made for swift transfer to steamers for passengers intent on taking a trip on t'lake, plus a couple of other platforms.  That lakeside platform was on the right hand side of the station as trains approached,  The vast majority of stations had the arrival platform on the left approaching the station.  Trying to operate it like a conventional station is going to be awkward.  At busy times Lakeside was all about day trippers and excursions, finding space for the stock of arrivals, or getting them away promptly as ECS the rest of the time pretty much dead apart from the tremendous excitement of the daily goods.

The main station looks basically Ok , except for the lack of a turntable.

The big problem with the continuous run part of the layout is that there is nowhere to store extra trains.   We all drag a loco or trainset off the layout and put another on every now and again, but while that was OK for Hornby Dublo and Triang, you can't treat modern RTR like that, or if you do you will break the fine details like handrails, slide bars, carriage truss rods, and ventilators etc.  It either needs a set of holding loops or sidings or maybe a cassette yard.  I know people who have built very successfully layouts just like the O.P, great fun to build and great to watch a long goods thunder through and an express run the other way but after 5 minutes I have had enough and want to watch something else.

[Chris Turnbull]

David is quite correct.  You will need some holding sidings, or fiddle yard as they are called, on both arrangements.  I didn't mention this because a) I thought they might be omitted as they are a given and b) I thought I had said enough.  The fiddle yard will need to go where you have the branch line terminus which is why I say you have a lack of space for all that you want to do.

 

Please don't be discouraged.  It is far better to sort any problems out at this design stage than later when you have built it and it doesn't meet your requirements.

 

Chris Turnbull

[Flying Pig]

On 20/01/2021 at 08:09, Alan Kettlewell said:

For interest here's a screenshot of a plan I made a while ago showing a Templot track plan overlaid onto an OS map of the layout at Lakeside. 

 

Signalling diagram of Lakeside: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M021.gif

[demsby]

8 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Signalling diagram of Lakeside: https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M021.gif

Forbidden

You do not have permission to access this document.

[Flying Pig]

4 minutes ago, demsby said:

Forbidden

You do not have permission to access this document.

 

Odd.  The SRS site does block direct links to drawings from time to time, but the link works for me. 

 

If you can see this page it's listed under the Furness Railway.

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/LMSDiagrams.htm

[MyRule1]

@wildroverBefore you fully start constructing baseboards I would consider a number of things.

Firstly  how sure are you that you will remain in the same house? For many people this might not be an issue but in my case I have moved house about every 6 years (for my wife's work). It is only now with retirement that I am embarking on a long term project. Can you dismantle what you build and either transport it elsewhere of sell it?

 

What is your realistic budget for this project? A DCC layout does not come cheap and I have costed my minimalist layout at over £2,000 at current prices (luckily I have pre-purchased most of the items.

 

What enjoyment do you get from the hobby? It might be construction, watching trains go past, prototypical operation. In my case I decided it was construction and watching trains so my layout will concentrate in a series of cameos and dioramas through which trains will pass. Shunting will be minimal and the only DCC operated points  will be in a passing loop and the fiddle yard.

 

Lastly why Carnforth & Lakeside?  As other have pointed out these are not the easiest and smallest MPD, Mainline station and branch line terminus to construct.  If you want a specific era and region I am sure that you will get plenty of suggestions here. My main area of knowledge is East Anglia so possibly not much help to you.

 

This is a great hobby but it is easy to set your aims too high and get disappointed but RMweb is a great place for feedback and help.

 

 

[wildrover]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all your feedback - I certainly appreciate it! I'll try and answer all your questions. As someone that had basically no knowledge on this until I started reading this forum and a couple of guides about 4/5 months ago, please bear with me!

 

@RobinofLoxley - I do see what you mean now about the turntable, but hopefully you can see from the signalling diagram that I'm at least trying to get it a little like the original. 

 

@Alan Kettlewell photos would be brilliant, thank you! And thanks for that plan

 

@Zomboid - i'd nearly always be up there with friends and family as a rule, but i'm building in a contingency for that to lift up. Weirdly, we're also pretty happy crawling around.

 

@Chris Turnbullthanks for all the advice, and the photos are fab. My main aim is to get it looking like Carnforth (more so the buildings) for family members that live near it, so when they see it they can instantly recognise it. I also had family members that worked at the station I believe in the 1930s/40s or possibly earlier. I'm not too fussed about the track plan being anything like Carnforth for now - it may be in 20 or so years to come when it moves out of the loft I concentrate on something more accurate. Regarding Lakeside, I go sailing right next to it so again it's more like the buildings, atmosphere etc of the layout are accurate than a perfect track plan itself (although I'd like to be closer with this than Carnforth)- I hope that makes sense! 

 

@DavidCBroad - that's a really good point. My previous life with Hornby stuff was indeed picking up one train and putting another down, (my brother seemed to run them and I picked up his derailments and played with track layouts!) and I appreciate your advice that doing it now would probably lead to breakages. I have two options for a fiddle yard one in the middle bit in between the two grey areas where I'll be stood, or there is a potential better space above the loop. Although given that I have precisely 0 DCC locomotives to put in any sort of fiddle yard at the moment, it may be a while before it gets used. I'm hoping some people will be able to give me some advice on what rolling stock to buy, but that's for another time...

 

@Flyingpigthanks, that's helpful. Might even make a nice photo for the wall!

 

@MyRule1hopefully we'll stay in this for a long time - we bought it a couple of years ago with the intention it's our family home (we have a 9 month old, which I think is why I got back into this!). Budget wise, I can afford to spend enough to get started now but then hopefully enough each month to keep my interest up - I do appreciate that this will run into the 1000's but the aim is that it's done over time and enjoy each stage of learning the new stuff like baseboards, wiring etc. Hopefully I've answered your questions about Carnforth/Lakeside above - trust me, I'm aware I could have picked easier places!

 

Thanks again everyone

[Chris Turnbull]

You will find a lot of photos of Carnforth on this thread including some of mine.  Good luck!

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129814-50-years-since-the-end-of-br-steam/

 

Chris Turnbull

 

[Chimer]

I think this has got great potential.  If it were mine, I think the long-term aim would be generally to use Carnforth for trainspotting and Lakeside for "proper" semi-timetabled operations.  So I would want enough storage loops on the roundy-roundy to see a variety of services including Pacific-hauled expresses, local passenger services, long freights etc.  With the option of trains changing locos at Carnforth to add even more variety.  Personally I would ignore the fact that anything last seen travelling south should next be seen travelling north, and I wouldn't try to pretend the services through Carnforth were remotely as per the WCML timetable - it can be done (as demonstrated by @great northernGilbert's Peterborough for the ECML) but the storage and stock requirements are enormous.

 

The obvious place for the storage loops is on the middle baseboard but that robs you of an area that could be nice rolling countryside, so if there is "a potential better space above the loop" its worth exploring - not sure what you might have in mind there, but would be interested in knowing. 

 

Any through train from Lakeside leaving Carnforth heading south to the rest of the world will eventually have to sneak into Carnforth again on the up line (pretending to be something else), reverse and leave heading north so it can re-enter Carnforth and depart for Lakeside in its true colours.  In the absence of a goods yard at Carnforth, you will have to do some hand-of-god fiddling to reverse ex-Lakeside freight workings in the storage sidings, so a trailing crossover from up storage to down main is probably needed.

 

I would also definitely do Carnforth first, and maybe just the outer circuit initially, obviously with the points in place, and leave Lakeside for phase 2.  That way you will be able to get the encouragement you get from being able to run trains within a year ......

 

Best of luck, Chris

[Merlin242]

I have just come across this thread which is of interest as my layout has a model of part of Carnforth shed and the other Windermere . station. I know Carnforth very well from BR days and around 20 years of volunteering at Steamtown. I looked at modelling just the shed but did not have the room. A version from the wagon shop to the North end would be over 30 feet and 3 feet wide. So I compromised and modeled the South End and cut the shed back to 4 tracks. I am reasonably happy that I could catch the atmosphere with the key elements, Coal plant ,ash plant water tower shed and turntable in the right locations. There are some compromises. only 2 coal sidings not 3 and ash plant and coal plant on the same track. The workshop is also missing. It takes up a space about 12 feet long 2 feet wide. Points are all peco medium radius and I think it can be done. The advantage of Carnforth is its very well photographed and the main structures are/were all modeled by Bachmann. Ebay and patience can be your friend here. 

I started  about 4 years ago in a space about 18 feet 6 by 13 with an oval with scenic storage sidings one side, Carnforth on the other and a full scale model Windermere in the centre. Its worked pretty well and is almost complete. I have found that modelling the prototype has given me more satisfaction than the generic bits. As someone suggested I would start with the oval as you will discover what gives you the most reward and move on. The other bit of advice is join the Cumbrian Railways Association. This group is exceptionally knowledgeable and friendly. Its been a godsend. One of the things they have done over lockdown are photo challenges. To identify a photo from the many thousands in the archives. This has brought out a lot of new information and there has been quite a bit about Lakeside. For example A recent 1954 working timetable shows are surprising number of excusions to Lakeside as well as trains on the branch. 

 

Mike Hanson

Facebook page Windermere & Hincaster Junction has photos, vidoes etc