Pembrokeshire Murders - railway

[eastworld]

If any watched the Pembrokeshire Murders - there were some scenes shot at what I guess was meant to be an archive store. This was in a cutting with what looked like rails in it. I have a feeling that I've seen it somewhere before - does anybody know where it is?

 

Stu

[John-Miles]

Trecwn. It's a former naval store for armaments. It is mostly underground and the tracks you saw are narrow gauge to take things in and out fo the store. IIRC the store is connected to the main line by a stub of the former North Pembrokeshire railway which ran through Maenclochog and was an alternative route to the present line from Clarbeston Road to Fishguard.

Edited January 18, 2021 by John-Miles
typo

[ejstubbs]

(ex) RNAD Trecwn?  OS maps show the standard gauge rail connection as still being in place.  Google aerial imagery isn't good enough to confirm or otherwise.

 

Edit: John-Miles beat me to it.

[The Johnster]

Beat me to it, John.  I believe the stub is still in situ.  The rails in some of the storage buildings are copper to eliminate sparks.  It has featured previously on tv in 'Who Dares Wins'.  To be pendantic the present line is the alternative route, the Maenclochog Railway having preceeded the GW here.

[ejstubbs]

When I was a kid we used to go on holiday to Pembrokeshire, staying in a cottage my Mum had bought Letterston.  I can remember the first year or two we went there, before we got mains electricity in, my Dad going to buy fuel for the coal-fired range from the coal merchant who was based in the goods yard at Letterston station.  I don't know whether there was still a goods service on the line then: Wiki says it ended in March 1965 so it would have been at the very end of its days if so.

[ejstubbs]

19 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

To be pendantic the present line is the alternative route, the Maenclochog Railway having preceeded the GW here.

 

To be even more pedantic, the Narbeth Road and Maenclochog Railway only got as far as Rosebush.  The North Pembrokeshire and Fishguard Railway eventually managed to extend the line as far as Letterston - not helped by obstructive behaviour from the owner of the NR&MR - but it only reached Fishguard in 1899 after some cunning machinations by the owner of the NP&FR convinced the GWR to take over his company and finish the route.  But even then it was recognised that the NP&FR route was far from ideal for maritime traffic, and in 1906 the GWR opened the direct route to Fishguard from Clarbeston Road, joining the NP&FR at Letterston Junction.

 

So in fact it was the GWR which built the stretch of line from which the line serving RNAD Trecwn branches off.

 

The actual detail of this story is pretty convoluted.  There is a short(ish) version on Wiki, and a whole lot more detail in Richard Parker's The Railways of Pembrokeshire.

[The Johnster]

Some of the curves on the Maenclochog were pretty convoluted as well...

[rob D2]

I was intrigued by the location too.

Do the local plod really use this bunker as an evidence store or is it artistic licence ?

 

was a good series that 

[Fat Controller]

25 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I was intrigued by the location too.

Do the local plod really use this bunker as an evidence store or is it artistic licence ?

 

was a good series that 

I would imagine it being difficult to get permission to film at the real police archive in Carmarthen, apart from probably not having enough space to film. Don't forget that, even if there are only two actors in shot, there are probably at least ten crew.

[ejstubbs]

I'm also intrigued by the location they used as the 'incident room' for the Ottowa team.  The zig-zag breakwater looks like it should be fairly definitive distinguishing feature to anyone who knows the area.  Anyone?

 

EDIT: According to WalesOnline the location is in Port Talbot.  I believe it's here.

Edited January 20, 2021 by ejstubbs

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

I'm also intrigued by the location they used as the 'incident room' for the Ottowa team.  The zig-zag breakwater looks like it should be fairly definitive distinguishing feature to anyone who knows the area.  Anyone?

 

EDIT: According to WalesOnline the location is in Port Talbot.  I believe it's here.

Interesting, because supposedly when they are driving there, you see them drive through Fishguard harbour station it appears

[KeithHC]

Yes Port Talbot you can see the building on Google earth. The real location was a port office at Fishguard.

 

Keith

[The Johnster]

Port Talbot harbour is not easy to get to in terms of public access either, but the 3 distinctive iron ore unloaders and the Gower coastline in the background give it away.  It has features in common with Fishguard harbour in that the background looking out to sea is mostly breakwaters, backed by distant hilss.  But it doesn't really cut the mustard as anywhere in Pembrokeshire, which I find a shame as the series's accurate sense ofl location was part of it's credibillity IMHO.  I appreciate that location finding for full value tv drama production has all sorts of restrictions placed on it, of course, but the Milford Haven/Broadhaven area is an actor playing huge part in both the series and the real events, perhaps because so many people who were visitors to the area are familiar with and fond of it.  I know it quite well, and have walked past the site of the Coast Path murders, and am familar with Broadhaven and Milford, including the pub featured at Hakin Point.

[KeithHC]

Please don’t forget that the tv company have exercised caution with filming in Pembrokeshire. These murders and assaults where suffered by people still living there. We lived close to Scoveston and Milford during the time of these dreadful incidents. Personally I think ITV did a great job taking into account those sensitivity’s.

 

Keith

[ejstubbs]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I know it quite well, and have walked past the site of the Coast Path murders

 

I remember watching the original Crimewatch appeal regarding the murders of Peter and Gwenda Dixon and thinking: "Blimey, we used to walk along there pretty much every summer holiday".

 

When I was a kid the family often used to go along to Little Haven Regatta, especially if it was a sunny day when the road outside the Swan Inn (where, in the series, DS Wilkins met with retired DCI George Jones to discuss the cold case) would be hooching!  (It's a cul-de-sac that leads out to the wee headland on the south side of the haven so doesn't get very much traffic.)

 

On a decent low tide you can walk round from Little Haven to Broad Haven.  The folded geology of the cliffs on the route is quite spectacular; traces of old coal workings can also be found (there are more obvious remains of old workings on the Pembrokeshire Coalfield at the north end of Broad Haven).

[The Johnster]

Stayed at the wonderful and sadly missed 'shabby chic' Druidstone Hotel back in the day, and have in fact walked around the headland between the Havesn at low tide, and seen the geology, including a near perfect fold that was photographed in my high school geology text book!  And had a fine lunch in the Swan.  This was years after the Dixon murders and there was some talk about a witness, or possible suspect, riding along the path on a mountain bike IIRC.  It was, with the other murders, a cloud over the area for many years, and it seemed to be generally thought that the killer was a local man responsible for both crimes, the path murders and the Thomas siblings killings, which I thought was significant as in a close community such as that there is a tendency to blame the outsiders.  There must have been a palable sense of closure and relief in the area in general as well as among those whose lives he directly affected when he was finally send down, and of course there may be other deeds that we are not party to

 

West Pembrokeshire is beautiful and it's people welcoming and friendly (which, as a Cardiffian, is not something I can claim is a given in all parts of Wales), but there is a 'rough' element and some violent criminal presence, areas I wouldn't like to be walking in alone in daylight never mind at night.  Many rural communities have these characters, and there are plenty of shotguns to saw off, blokes who go lamping, or hare coursing, badger baiting, or arrange dog fights, and there is always a level of drug and possibly people trafficking at coastal spots where dingies can be landed from ships.  Dog fights have become an urban thing in more recent times as well, the Asion community being blamed but plenty of others join in.

 

John Cooper was, and no doubt sitll is, a murderous thug, a bully, and manipulative and domineering violent sexual predator a horrible man with no redeeming characteristics.  The Ottowa team are to be praised for a superb piece of detective work, doggedly carried out with patience and precision.  Sadly his release from prison for his robbery undoubtedly led to the death of his wife.  He is where he needs to be, and I cannot imagine anyone is unhappy with that!

 

There is another railway scene, a night scene in which Cooper's son collapeses in a goods yard and a daylight scene where he is found unconcious, which I imagine is probably somewhere in the Margam/Port Talbot complex since filiming took place there anyway; the rolling stock does not reflect Pembrokeshire's almost completely oil based freight traffic.  I thought the series was entirely believable and the Port Talbot locations did not detract from it's credibility at all, and neither did the use of Trecwn as the police archive location.  As has been said, there are those directly affected by Cooper's activities, possibly more than we are aware of, still living in the area and their sensitivites had to be taking into account by the production team.  I don't often have much to say about 'meeja' folk, especially tv folk, which is particularly positive, but in this case I do; a job well, intelligently, and thoughfully done, kudos to all concerned on the production team.

Edited January 22, 2021 by The Johnster

[KeithHC]

When I was living down there, there was also two further rumours pertaining to the cliff murders. One was they had come across a drug delivery from a boat. The other was they had come across an IRA gun/explosive delivery again from a boat. This could have just been a smokescreen whilst Huntsman/Ottawa was on going. The location of John Coopers final arrest was in Letterston between Haverfordwest and Fishguard.

 

Keith 

[ejstubbs]

Letterston is where we used to stay when we went to Pembrokeshire on holiday.  When talking about the upcoming trial the TV reporter did describe the defendant as "65-year-old John William Cooper of Letterston, Pembrokeshire".   As far as I can determine the address that was mentioned repeatedly in the series as being Cooper's home (28 Rose Meadow Lane) doesn't exist.  It wouldn't surprise me if that was done with the local sensitivities in mind also.  They didn't use Cooper's actual home, either: that WalesOnline article I referenced above says they used a similar-looking house in Trefin/Trevine.

 

(To drag things back roughly towards the topic of railways: I have a vague idea that I read somewhere about there once being a tramway of some kind in Trefin, blowed if I can find anything about it now.  I know about the tramway between Abereiddy and Porthgain, it wasn't that but something in the actual village of Trefin.  Maybe imagined it...)

[KeithHC]

10 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

Letterston is where we used to stay when we went to Pembrokeshire on holiday.  When talking about the upcoming trial the TV reporter did describe the defendant as "65-year-old John William Cooper of Letterston, Pembrokeshire".   As far as I can determine the address that was mentioned repeatedly in the series as being Cooper's home (28 Rose Meadow Lane) doesn't exist.  It wouldn't surprise me if that was done with the local sensitivities in mind also.  They didn't use Cooper's actual home, either: that WalesOnline article I referenced above says they used a similar-looking house in Trefin/Trevine.

 

(To drag things back roughly towards the topic of railways: I have a vague idea that I read somewhere about there once being a tramway of some kind in Trefin, blowed if I can find anything about it now.  I know about the tramway between Abereiddy and Porthgain, it wasn't that but something in the actual village of Trefin.  Maybe imagined it...)

I had a look on Rail Map online and nothing came up in Trefin. It may have been a proposed line.

 

Keith

[ejstubbs]

Rail Map online doesn't show the Abereiddy-Porthgain tramway, which is strange since it's usually a reliable source.  Maybe I ought to drop him a line.

 

CORRECTION: Yes it does!  For some reason most of the map layers seem to be turned off when I open the web page.  I'm sure it didn't used to be like that.  Maybe I'm missing a cookie or something...

Edited January 23, 2021 by ejstubbs

[KeithHC]

32 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

Rail Map online doesn't show the Abereiddy-Porthgain tramway, which is strange since it's usually a reliable source.  Maybe I ought to drop him a line.

 

CORRECTION: Yes it does!  For some reason most of the map layers seem to be turned off when I open the web page.  I'm sure it didn't used to be like that.  Maybe I'm missing a cookie or something...

No it changed a while back I tried clicking on all levels just to see if anything appeared.

 

Keith

[bradyblue]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Stayed at the wonderful and sadly missed 'shabby chic' Druidstone Hotel back in the day, and have in fact walked around the headland between the Havesn at low tide, and seen the geology, including a near perfect fold that was photographed in my high school geology text book!  And had a fine lunch in the Swan.  This was years after the Dixon murders and there was some talk about a witness, or possible suspect, riding along the path on a mountain bike IIRC.  It was, with the other murders, a cloud over the area for many years, and it seemed to be generally thought that the killer was a local man responsible for both crimes, the path murders and the Thomas siblings killings, which I thought was significant as in a close community such as that there is a tendency to blame the outsiders.  There must have been a palable sense of closure and relief in the area in general as well as among those whose lives he directly affected when he was finally send down, and of course there may be other deeds that we are not party to

 

West Pembrokeshire is beautiful and it's people welcoming and friendly (which, as a Cardiffian, is not something I can claim is a given in all parts of Wales), but there is a 'rough' element and some violent criminal presence, areas I wouldn't like to be walking in alone in daylight never mind at night.  Many rural communities have these characters, and there are plenty of shotguns to saw off, blokes who go lamping, or hare coursing, badger baiting, or arrange dog fights, and there is always a level of drug and possibly people trafficking at coastal spots where dingies can be landed from ships.  Dog fights have become an urban thing in more recent times as well, the Asion community being blamed but plenty of others join in.

 

John Cooper was, and no doubt sitll is, a murderous thug, a bully, and manipulative and domineering violent sexual predator a horrible man with no redeeming characteristics.  The Ottowa team are to be praised for a superb piece of detective work, doggedly carried out with patience and precision.  Sadly his release from prison for his robbery undoubtedly led to the death of his wife.  He is where he needs to be, and I cannot imagine anyone is unhappy with that!

 

There is another railway scene, a night scene in which Cooper's son collapeses in a goods yard and a daylight scene where he is found unconcious, which I imagine is probably somewhere in the Margam/Port Talbot complex since filiming took place there anyway; the rolling stock does not reflect Pembrokeshire's almost completely oil based freight traffic.  I thought the series was entirely believable and the Port Talbot locations did not detract from it's credibility at all, and neither did the use of Trecwn as the police archive location.  As has been said, there are those directly affected by Cooper's activities, possibly more than we are aware of, still living in the area and their sensitivites had to be taking into account by the production team.  I don't often have much to say about 'meeja' folk, especially tv folk, which is particularly positive, but in this case I do; a job well, intelligently, and thoughfully done, kudos to all concerned on the production team.

That was filmed at the Barry tourist railway-Coopers son collapse in a goods yard. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by bradyblue

[HGT1972]

Just reading this thread (and what a well put together programme that prompted this in the first place). The railway scene where the son collapsed was actually Barry Tourist Railway. The vans are the former Ford vans that worked out of Bridgend and the hoppers are the currently stored ex-Freightliner HXAs.

 

Regarding the records 'bunker' - it may not be Trecwn and could in fact be the Brackla RGHQ bunker in Bridgend. One of those looks very much like it, complete with the embedded track in the concrete approach road.

 

Hywel

[br2975]

I purposely shied away from this docu / drama, as having a little prior knowledge of the investigation and other incident rooms,  watching it would not have made enjoyable viewing for the wife, with my butting in every so often to "pick holes" (her phrase, not mine).

Edited January 27, 2021 by br2975

[KeithHC]

1 hour ago, HGT1972 said:

Just reading this thread (and what a well put together programme that prompted this in the first place). The railway scene where the son collapsed was actually Barry Tourist Railway. The vans are the former Ford vans that worked out of Bridgend and the hoppers are the currently stored ex-Freightliner HXAs.

 

Regarding the records 'bunker' - it may not be Trecwn and could in fact be the Brackla RGHQ bunker in Bridgend. One of those looks very much like it, complete with the embedded track in the concrete approach road.

 

Hywel

I did wonder if it was Trecwn as the tracks where standard gauge. Trecwn had an extensive narrow gauge system I believe of 2ft 6ins.

 

Keith