Eastern/Scottish Region HSTs early/mid-1980s

[hexagon789]

A few questions regarding ECML HSTs in the 1980s.

 

Firstly, I believe that in the early 1980s (some point around 1981-84 I think?), the ER formed a few 254 sets up to 2+9 using additional information think TS vehicles. Does anyone know exactly when this was done, which years and also which services if there were any specific ones these were then used on?

 

Did they only run on the Southern ECML services, or did any make it to Edinburgh or even Aberdeen as 2+9?

 

 

Secondly, when the Highland Chieftain was introduced in May 1984 I believe the ER still had both TRUK/TRSB and TRUB 254 sets, if I'm correct then what was the 'Chieftain' booked for?

 

 

Thanks in advance :)

[Flood]

The Eastern Region lost all but 3 of its TRUKs at the start of the May 1985 timetable (these last two, plus a spare, were used in the two Pullman services), so the first year of the Highland Chieftain could have used TRUKs but I'm still looking for photos.

Previous edit now not required.

 

Whilst looking I found this:

which shows a 2+9 photographed by Bruce Galloway on the 10.30 Aberdeen - Kings Cross on 12 May 1984.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Flood

[keefer]

I was on an Abdn-KX HST in mid-'83 which had TRUK/TRSB - I can't off-hand remember how many TS were present but there was a TS (possibly Coach B) with a Class 253 data panel.

I'm sure I've read (MRP Profile 1?) that the extra TSs came in after a reorganisation of cl.253 sets.

Wasn't there a surplus of TS after the full introduction of the TGS into all sets?

[Flood]

17 minutes ago, keefer said:

I was on an Abdn-KX HST in mid-'83 which had TRUK/TRSB - I can't off-hand remember how many TS were present but there was a TS (possibly Coach B) with a Class 253 data panel.

I'm sure I've read (MRP Profile 1?) that the extra TSs came in after a reorganisation of cl.253 sets.

Wasn't there a surplus of TS after the full introduction of the TGS into all sets?

All but one of the Aberdeen trains had TRUK formations in 1982-83 and probably the next year as well.

When the TGSs were built there were new sets being made for West of England, NE/SW and the Eastern so any spare TSs were quickly used up.

From 27 Western Region sets and 32 Eastern Region in 1980 there were 42 Western Region, 13 NE/SW and 48 Eastern/MML sets in 1985. The Eastern didn't get rid of the TRUKs until the final batch of TSs (42323-42341) with 76 seats from new were built late 1984 to early 1985.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Flood

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, Flood said:

The Eastern Region lost all but 2 of its TRUKs at the start of the May 1985 timetable (these last two were used in the two Pullman services), so the first year of the Highland Chieftain could have used TRUKs but I'm still looking for photos.

Edit: Note that for the first two years the Highland Chieftain went as far as Edinburgh and not Inverness (changed May 1986).

 

Whilst looking I found this:

which shows a 2+9 photographed by Bruce Galloway on the 10.30 Aberdeen - Kings Cross on 12 May 1984.

I did try Flickr but the nearest I could find was the rear of a set at Perth in July 1985 and you couldn't see past the TGS.

 

One thing though, you say the Chieftain didn't run past Edinburgh until 1986, I thought the name came into use in 1984 as did the service all the way to Inverness?

 

That photo of the Aberdeen is useful though, so thanks for that

 

 

1 hour ago, keefer said:

I was on an Abdn-KX HST in mid-'83 which had TRUK/TRSB - I can't off-hand remember how many TS were present but there was a TS (possibly Coach B) with a Class 253 data panel.

I'm sure I've read (MRP Profile 1?) that the extra TSs came in after a reorganisation of cl.253 sets.

Wasn't there a surplus of TS after the full introduction of the TGS into all sets?

I read somewhere that ex-WR TS went into ER sets and may have been used to make them up to 2+9 but I can't remember the details

 

2 hours ago, Flood said:

All but one of the Aberdeen trains had TRUK formations in 1982-83 and probably the next year as well.

When the TGSs were built there were new sets being made for West of England, NE/SW and the Eastern so any spare TSs were quickly used up.

From 27 Western Region sets and 32 Eastern Region in 1980 there were 42 Western Region, 13 NE/SW and 48 Eastern/MML sets in 1985. The Eastern didn't get rid of the TRUKs until the final batch of TSs (42323-42341) with 76 seats from new were built late 1984 to early 1985.

That's useful information, thanks Flood though it is more the Central Scotland/HML area I'm looking at hence modelling the Chieftain.

 

 

[45125]

2 hours ago, Flood said:

The Eastern Region lost all but 2 of its TRUKs at the start of the May 1985 timetable (these last two were used in the two Pullman services), so the first year of the Highland Chieftain could have used TRUKs but I'm still looking for photos.

Edit: Note that for the first two years the Highland Chieftain went as far as Edinburgh and not Inverness (changed May 1986).

 

Whilst looking I found this:

which shows a 2+9 photographed by Bruce Galloway on the 10.30 Aberdeen - Kings Cross on 12 May 1984.

The Eastern had retained 3 TRUKs, one for the Yorkshire Pullman and one for the Tyne Tees Pullman( a 9 car set) and one spare. 40501, 40505,40511 were the the three, the one that was spare was usually at NL, when not at Litchurch Lane.

 

Al Taylor.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

I think the special nine car sets were much shorter lived than suggested above, it may only have been a high summer 1980/1981 thing whilst enough TS vehicles were available and then quite strictly limited to the busiest Anglo-Scots; not sure which depots had capability to handle 9 cars back then but it wouldn't have been many as work was needed when GNER extended them in 2003. Post 1983 only a tiny number of spare TS's would have been available, extras had been built to extend 10 WR "West of England" sets to boost sets on the busiest trains to 2+8.

 

Highland Chieftain started May 1984 timetable and was ALWAYS a through service to Kings Cross, except when absolutely impossible due to major engineering works. For the first few years the up train went via Elgin and Aberdeen on winter Sunday mornings as a booked working to retain the through service during work on the Highland main line. Did a TRUK ever get to Inverness? I doubt it, but someone will prove me wrong with an early photo- you really are better off with a TRUB in your set if replicating an early days 'Chieftain.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by fiftyfour fiftyfour

[hexagon789]

22 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I think the special nine car sets were much shorter lived than suggested above, it may only have been a high summer 1980/1981 thing whilst enough TS vehicles were available and then quite strictly limited to the busiest Anglo-Scots; not sure which depots had capability to handle 9 cars back then but it wouldn't have been many as work was needed when GNER extended them in 2003. Post 1983 only a tiny number of spare TS's would have been available, extras had been built to extend 10 WR "West of England" sets to boost sets on the busiest trains to 2+8.

Thank you, that's kind of what I was expecting that it was short lived while there were so are trailers floating about but not a long-term thing in the early 1980s.

 

23 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Highland Chieftain started May 1984 timetable and was ALWAYS a through service to Kings Cross, except when absolutely impossible due to major engineering works. For the first few years the up train went via Elgin and Aberdeen on winter Sunday mornings as a booked working to retain the through service during work on the Highland main line. Did a TRUK ever get to Inverness? I doubt it, but someone will prove me wrong with an early photo- you really are better off with a TRUB in your set if replicating an early days 'Chieftain.

That was my understanding, that the service originated as the 1982 marginal time extension of an Edinburgh-London HST to start from Perth in 1982 which in 1984 was then extended to Inverness and given the name though originally only planned to be for the summer season though I believe that intention was never implemented and it was extended to run over winter 1984-85 and has always run all year round and unlike The Clansman on Sundays as well if not always named such on Sundays.

 

 

[Flood]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Highland Chieftain started May 1984 timetable and was ALWAYS a through service to Kings Cross, except when absolutely impossible due to major engineering works. ...

 

 

A correction from me folks. In 1984 Table 26 states the Highland Chieftain but has no mention of any service beyond Edinburgh (nor does the 1985 timetable). Table 230, however, states that the 07.30 Inverness - Kings Cross was HST and states the name the Highland Chieftain. Likewise the 12.00 Kings Cross arrives at Inverness at 20.50.

 

Just goes to show I have to delve that little bit further sometimes before assuming anything.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Flood

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

1 hour ago, hexagon789 said:

That was my understanding, that the service originated as the 1982 marginal time extension of an Edinburgh-London HST to start from Perth in 1982 which in 1984 was then extended to Inverness and given the name though originally only planned to be for the summer season though I believe that intention was never implemented and it was extended to run over winter 1984-85 and has always run all year round and unlike The Clansman on Sundays as well if not always named such on Sundays.

 

 

A lot of this stuff was Chris Green initiatives when he was boss at ScotRail, like putting in differential speeds for HSTs on stretches of the Aberdeen road. There were a few years when the Clansman and the Highland Chieftain co-existed but IIRC the Clansman was killed off circa 1989 having seen reduced demand and only really existing as an Inverness to West Midlands train in latter years as the superior speed of the Highland Chieftain slowly eroded demand for the WCML train. I think that unlike many other trains the weekend Highland Chieftain's were always named, I have early carriage labels with the stag logo showing SO and SuO varients, this continued into the IC Swallow logo and beyond into the logo with the Tam O Shanter hat used in the late 1990's and various GNER and subsequent versions through to the end of HST operation.

[Bomag]

As implied above the presence of 2+9 ECML sets in the early 1980's was perhaps overstated. I believe that when first added the TGS was occasional added without removing the 'spare TS', this was short lived as they formed sets 033-042 with the removed TS (from early 1981 when the extra TFs were delivered from Lot 30947).

 

By 1983 there were 11 sets left with TRSB/TRUK out of 49 ECML sets (18 of which were short formed); it was only with the conversion of the prototype Mk3s for TFs in 1982 and the delivery of the last TS (42341 from Lot 30983) in March 85 did all 48 sets get to 2+8.  However, in the summer of 1983 (and presumably 1984) when ECML power car availability was low as they kept on cracking the exhausts etc they had spare sets so may have strengthened sets.  If you the Harris DMU vol 4 book you can see the odd loans between ECML depots.

 

The Yorkshire and TT Pullmans TRFK/TRFB sets were formed in late 1985 and were 2+8, the TRFK and Third TF (with Pullman logo for at least some of the time) moved between sets. Originally in IC Executive referb sets NL47 and HT05 and by 1988 Swallow livery NL22 and HT34. By then HT34 was officially 2+9 (3xTS) and I saw the YP as 2+9 with one of NL two spare TS.

 

It was only after privatisation were enough TS released for GNER to go to 2+9 for all sets.

[45125]

3 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Thank you, that's kind of what I was expecting that it was short lived while there were so are trailers floating about but not a long-term thing in the early 1980s.

 

That was my understanding, that the service originated as the 1982 marginal time extension of an Edinburgh-London HST to start from Perth in 1982 which in 1984 was then extended to Inverness and given the name though originally only planned to be for the summer season though I believe that intention was never implemented and it was extended to run over winter 1984-85 and has always run all year round and unlike The Clansman on Sundays as well if not always named such on Sundays.

 

 

Most of the HST depots could take a 2+9 set on the pit, the problem was usually if you need to put oil or coolant in the rear power car meant a shuffle up the bit as the oil and coolant pump where only set up for 2+7 and 2+8 sets. It wasn't until GNER went to 2+9 with the release of VXC trailer that oil and coolant facilities were altered.

 

Al Taylor.

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

12 minutes ago, 45125 said:

Most of the HST depots could take a 2+9 set on the pit, the problem was usually if you need to put oil or coolant in the rear power car meant a shuffle up the bit as the oil and coolant pump where only set up for 2+7 and 2+8 sets. It wasn't until GNER went to 2+9 with the release of VXC trailer that oil and coolant facilities were altered.

 

Al Taylor.

 

And we had the opposite problem at Bristol St Philips Marsh- Virgin thought it would be a good idea to cut to 2+5 sets but couldn't understand why it took twice as long to service them- all the fuel grids were set up for 2+7 or 2+8 so it had to be mobilised, started up and shunted half way though servicing. I imagine NL might be having similar problems with the 6 car sets on EMR now!

 

[Commoner]

In terms of 2+9 formations this was a temporary arrangement that operated in the May 1980 and June 1981 summer timetables.  The lengthening of  some formations was facilitated by the loan of WR TS vehicles that had been displaced by newly delivered TGS vehicles from April 1980 onwards.  By July 1980, 42091/3/6/7/9, 42101-110 were all on temporary loan to the ER/ScR. These vehicles were destined to be formed in NE/SW sets, and slowly returned to the WR over the course of 1981.

 

An amendment to the ECML HST diagrams operative from 12/5/80 show that 6 sets were booked to be formed as 2+9 formations. They were confined to operation on the Anglo-Scotish route and had no booked workings to Leeds. The actual workings are show below with their allocated depot turn numbers.  

 

BN 104 (TRUK+TRSB)

M-S, 10.00 KX-Ed/16.15 Ed-KX, SUN 10.00 KX-Ed/17.15 Ed-KX

 

EC 102 (TRUK+TRSB)

M-F, 08.00 KX-Ed/14.15 Ed-KX, SO KX 07.32-Ed/13.25 Ed-KX, SUN forms EC113, 17.00 Kx-Ed (forms EC113 Mon)

 

EC 113 (TRUK+TRSB)

M-F, 10.15 Ed-KX/16.00 KX-Ed, SO Ed 09.15-KX/15.00 ABDN, SUN forms EC 102, 12.10 Abdn-KX (forms EC 102 Mon)

 

EC 112 (TRUK+TRSB)

M-F, 09.15 Ed-KX/15.00 KX-ABDN (forms EC 114 M-F), SO 08.35 ABDN-KX, SUN 11.00 KX-ABDN (forms EC 114 Mon)

 

EC 114 (TRUK+TRSB)

08.35 ABDN-KX/17.00-Ed (forms 112 M-F), SO 10.15 Ed-KX/16.00 KX-Ncl, SUN 08.15 Ncl-KX/14.00 KX-Ed (forms EC 112 Mon)

 

HT 129 (TRUB)

M-S, 08.30 Ncl-KX/13.35 KX-Ncl, SUN spare at Heaton

 

After 1981 I believe that any 2+9 formations (apart from the Pullman sets) were ad-hoc arrangements.  As mentioned by other contributors there just wasn't the spare TS vehicles to go round in the mid-1980s.  Similarly, the ER diagrams through the mid-1980s make no mention of 2+9 sets.

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

Regarding TRUK/TRUB's, what did 'Unclassified' mean?

Assuming that both 1st & standard class passengers could use them, why were they not TRSK/TRSB's?

[hexagon789]

19 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Regarding TRUK/TRUB's, what did 'Unclassified' mean?

Assuming that both 1st & standard class passengers could use them, why were they not TRSK/TRSB's?

For use by either class.

 

I believe First Class passengers had priority for dining though and in answer to your second question they did have First Class seats - 2+1 and the same type as in the TFs.

 

If they'd classified them as TRSK/TRSB then the seating would have been for ordinary non-catering use as per the normal TRSB, making it 'U' allowed it to be specifically allocated for dining. 

 

That's my best explanation anyway!

[hexagon789]

I've managed to answer my own question, it appears that during the first year the Highland Chieftain was allocated a TRUK set.

 

I was able to find some set observations and these produced the following formations:

 

12/05/84

0720 INV-KGX

43120 41073 41074 40509 40426 42144 42145 42143 44049 43045

 

18/07/84

0720 INV-KGX

43097 41062 41061 40503 40420 42119 42120 42121 44043 43089

 

22/08/84 

1200 KGX-INV

43094 44075 42137 42136 42135 40424 40507 41070 41069 43055

 

10/04/85

1200 KGX-INV

43052 44050 42149 42148 42147 40427 40510 41076 41075 43046

 

06/05/85

1200 KGX-INV (TRUB set)

43119 44059 42107 42185 42184 42183 40307 41094 41093 43069

 

So TRUK sets it would seem to be for the first year, then TRUB sets from May 1985.

 

 

Two other things if I may:

 

1) Would these sets be all in Blue/Grey or were any vehicles in InterCity Executive by these dates?

2) I presume the power cars no longer carried Class 254 xxx set numbers by this point, only power car 43xxx numbers?

 

Thanks

Edited January 1, 2022 by hexagon789

[tiger]

Sorry for the slow reply but hopefully the following is still useful.
 

On 02/01/2022 at 05:44, hexagon789 said:

Two other things if I may:

 

1) Would these sets be all in Blue/Grey or were any vehicles in InterCity Executive by these dates?

2) I presume the power cars no longer carried Class 254 xxx set numbers by this point, only power car 43xxx numbers?

 

Thanks

 

To hopefully answer your questions: (Photos are Flickr links and not my originals - credit remains with original photographers)

 

1. I think it is safe to say that the coaching stock of the TRUK/TRSB sets would have all been in Blue/Grey during 1984 and early 1985. The first two HST sets painted into Executive Livery were Western Regions sets 253028 (43125, 43126 and spare 43151) and 253030 (43129, 43130) which were 7 coach TRUB sets painted in late 1983. Both of these sets had detail differences in application of the Executive livery compared to what became the standard livery, and being allocated to the WR it is extremely unlikely that they ever ventured onto the ECML, let alone to Inverness.

 

During 1984 the only other HST coach painted in Executive livery was the InterCity Executive Saloon, TLUK ex TRUK 40513.

 

It wasn't until early 1985 that the first refurbished HST sets began to appear from Derby in Executive livery from the main HST refurbishment programme, that took until 1991 to complete. Here is what may be the first Executive Livery HST set on the ECML in March 1985 with 43085 at the head. The formation is just visible as TGS, 4xTS and vehicle 6 just under the bridge is a catering vehicle - ie this is a TRUB (or possibly by then TRFB) set:

 

 

43085 in the paint shop at Derby in February 1985:

 

 

If the date is correct it would seem that 43082 was another early recipient of Executive livery:

 

 

It is not impossible that an Executive liveried power car was allocated to a TRUK set between February and April/May 1985, when the last TRSB/TRUK sets were disbanded but I haven't seen a picture. Here are two pictures of TRUK sets in 1985, both with blue/grey power cars. It may be more accurate to call them TRFK sets, as both of the kitchen cars in these photos now feature the yellow first class stripe:

 

11 March 1985:

 

 

17 March 1985. In the description on Flickr this has been captioned as a TRFK/TRFB set covering the Tees/Tyne Pullman but the window arrangements of the catering vehicles are consistent with TRFK/TRSB (4 saloon windows on each catering vehicle):

 

 

To answer question 2 - as per the above pictures the most common arrangement in 1985 was to have no nose end numbers at all. I'm pretty certain the 254xxx numbers had all been removed by about 1983. Some Blue/Grey power cars had the 43xxx number applied to the nose end - either on the emergency coupling panel (where the previous 254xxx number was located) or less commonly just above the horn grille (black font on yellow). I might post photos in a separate post if I can find any.

 

Hope that helps.

Tom.

 

On 02/01/2022 at 05:44, hexagon789 said:

I've managed to answer my own question, it appears that during the first year the Highland Chieftain was allocated a TRUK set.

 

I was able to find some set observations and these produced the following formations:

 

12/05/84

0720 INV-KGX

43120 41073 41074 40509 40426 42144 42145 42143 44049 43045

 

18/07/84

0720 INV-KGX

43097 41062 41061 40503 40420 42119 42120 42121 44043 43089

 

22/08/84 

1200 KGX-INV

43094 44075 42137 42136 42135 40424 40507 41070 41069 43055

 

10/04/85

1200 KGX-INV

43052 44050 42149 42148 42147 40427 40510 41076 41075 43046

 

06/05/85

1200 KGX-INV (TRUB set)

43119 44059 42107 42185 42184 42183 40307 41094 41093 43069

 

So TRUK sets it would seem to be for the first year, then TRUB sets from May 1985.

 

[hexagon789]

8 hours ago, tiger said:

Sorry for the slow reply but hopefully the following is still useful.
 

 

To hopefully answer your questions: (Photos are Flickr links and not my originals - credit remains with original photographers)

 

1. I think it is safe to say that the coaching stock of the TRUK/TRSB sets would have all been in Blue/Grey during 1984 and early 1985. The first two HST sets painted into Executive Livery were Western Regions sets 253028 (43125, 43126 and spare 43151) and 253030 (43129, 43130) which were 7 coach TRUB sets painted in late 1983. Both of these sets had detail differences in application of the Executive livery compared to what became the standard livery, and being allocated to the WR it is extremely unlikely that they ever ventured onto the ECML, let alone to Inverness.

 

During 1984 the only other HST coach painted in Executive livery was the InterCity Executive Saloon, TLUK ex TRUK 40513.

 

It wasn't until early 1985 that the first refurbished HST sets began to appear from Derby in Executive livery from the main HST refurbishment programme, that took until 1991 to complete. Here is what may be the first Executive Livery HST set on the ECML in March 1985 with 43085 at the head. The formation is just visible as TGS, 4xTS and vehicle 6 just under the bridge is a catering vehicle - ie this is a TRUB (or possibly by then TRFB) set:

 

 

43085 in the paint shop at Derby in February 1985:

 

 

If the date is correct it would seem that 43082 was another early recipient of Executive livery:

 

 

It is not impossible that an Executive liveried power car was allocated to a TRUK set between February and April/May 1985, when the last TRSB/TRUK sets were disbanded but I haven't seen a picture. Here are two pictures of TRUK sets in 1985, both with blue/grey power cars. It may be more accurate to call them TRFK sets, as both of the kitchen cars in these photos now feature the yellow first class stripe:

 

11 March 1985:

 

 

17 March 1985. In the description on Flickr this has been captioned as a TRFK/TRFB set covering the Tees/Tyne Pullman but the window arrangements of the catering vehicles are consistent with TRFK/TRSB (4 saloon windows on each catering vehicle):

 

 

To answer question 2 - as per the above pictures the most common arrangement in 1985 was to have no nose end numbers at all. I'm pretty certain the 254xxx numbers had all been removed by about 1983. Some Blue/Grey power cars had the 43xxx number applied to the nose end - either on the emergency coupling panel (where the previous 254xxx number was located) or less commonly just above the horn grille (black font on yellow). I might post photos in a separate post if I can find any.

 

Hope that helps.

Tom.

 

 

Thank you very much, that's an excellent and informative reply.

 

Much appreciated.

[keefer]

Those 2 pics of the twin-diner sets are interesting as it shows the them coupled buffet/kitchen instead of saloon/saloon as previously.

Presumably due to the move to 1st class only dining seats, keeps them separate from the rest of the train.

[tiger]

Following on from my previous post here are a few more photos - as with the previous post these are not my original photos and copyright remains with the original photographers. 

 

43056 (formerly of set 254001) with nose end numbers in 1984. I've also noticed that the bodyside numbers are black in this photo whereas usually they were white in Blue/Grey livery which was  hard to read on the yellow background:

 

 

43086 with nose end numbers in 1984:

 

 

There's a few other interesting HST pics on Flickr from this era.

 

In my previous post I confidently stated that it was unlikely that the initial WR Executive liveried sets worked on the ECML (set no.s 253 028, 253 030, power car numbers 43125, 43126, 43129, 43130, 43151). Then I found this photo at Newcastle in March 1985. From the application of the Executive livery (yellow extending across the radiator grille, outline stencil lettering for "InterCity 125") this must be 43125, 43126 or 43151. The adjacent TF is 41164 with a just about legible "PM" depot allocation sticker. In 1986 this was part of set 253 048, one of the North East/South West sets (41164, 40429, 42096, 42097, 42098, 42099, 44081 - hence the appearance of this WR power car in Newcastle.

 

 

After the TRSB/TRUK combinations were replaced by TRUB in 1985, the remaining kitchen cars were only routinely allocated to the sets for the Yorkshire Pullman and Tees/Tyne Pullman.

 

The usual formation was TF TF TRFK TF TRFB TS TS TGS - later augmented to nine cars with an extra TS, like this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

But there are also photos of the Pullman HSTs with the TRFB and TRFKs marshalled together, without a TF in between, like this (TF TF TRFK TRFB TS TS TS TGS):

 

 

And this (my own picture for a change):

 

 

Having checked various Platform 5 and Ian Allan Combined volumes from the period in question I think the Tees-Tyne Pullman may have been formed as a 9 car HST from an earlier date than the Yorkshire Pullman. Others may have better knowledge than me!

 

Hope this is of interest,

 

Tom.

 

[hexagon789]

On 19/01/2022 at 09:11, keefer said:

Those 2 pics of the twin-diner sets are interesting as it shows the them coupled buffet/kitchen instead of saloon/saloon as previously.

Presumably due to the move to 1st class only dining seats, keeps them separate from the rest of the train.

Something that started with the Mk2D coaches, meals at seats in First Class vehicles rather than in dedicated restaurant cars. Hence the switch to all open vehicles from the 2E onwards.

 

15 hours ago, tiger said:

Following on from my previous post here are a few more photos - as with the previous post these are not my original photos and copyright remains with the original photographers. 

 

43056 (formerly of set 254001) with nose end numbers in 1984. I've also noticed that the bodyside numbers are black in this photo whereas usually they were white in Blue/Grey livery which was  hard to read on the yellow background:

 

 

43086 with nose end numbers in 1984:

 

 

There's a few other interesting HST pics on Flickr from this era.

 

In my previous post I confidently stated that it was unlikely that the initial WR Executive liveried sets worked on the ECML (set no.s 253 028, 253 030, power car numbers 43125, 43126, 43129, 43130, 43151). Then I found this photo at Newcastle in March 1985. From the application of the Executive livery (yellow extending across the radiator grille, outline stencil lettering for "InterCity 125") this must be 43125, 43126 or 43151. The adjacent TF is 41164 with a just about legible "PM" depot allocation sticker. In 1986 this was part of set 253 048, one of the North East/South West sets (41164, 40429, 42096, 42097, 42098, 42099, 44081 - hence the appearance of this WR power car in Newcastle.

 

 

After the TRSB/TRUK combinations were replaced by TRUB in 1985, the remaining kitchen cars were only routinely allocated to the sets for the Yorkshire Pullman and Tees/Tyne Pullman.

 

The usual formation was TF TF TRFK TF TRFB TS TS TGS - later augmented to nine cars with an extra TS, like this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

But there are also photos of the Pullman HSTs with the TRFB and TRFKs marshalled together, without a TF in between, like this (TF TF TRFK TRFB TS TS TS TGS):

 

 

And this (my own picture for a change):

 

 

Having checked various Platform 5 and Ian Allan Combined volumes from the period in question I think the Tees-Tyne Pullman may have been formed as a 9 car HST from an earlier date than the Yorkshire Pullman. Others may have better knowledge than me!

 

Hope this is of interest,

 

Tom.

 

Very much of interest, some great photos.

 

I can't say for certain, but I understood only the Tyne-Tees became a 2+9, that the Yorkshire Pullman was always 2+8. I may be completely wrong but that's what I thought anyway.

[Bomag]

32 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Something that started with the Mk2D coaches, meals at seats in First Class vehicles rather than in dedicated restaurant cars. Hence the switch to all open vehicles from the 2E onwards.

 

Very much of interest, some great photos.

 

I can't say for certain, but I understood only the Tyne-Tees became a 2+9, that the Yorkshire Pullman was always 2+8. I may be completely wrong but that's what I thought anyway.

 

When introduced on ECML services most services had a Mk1 RUO/RSO in Mk2d rakes. The conversions from FO (1058-1070) were in 1976, 5 years after the introduction of Mk2d. It was only with the introduction of HST (ER) and Mk3 (FO and then RUB, for WCML) in the late 1970's were the last dedicated restaurant seating coaches (i.e. no kitchen) withdrawn or redeployed.

 

The HST Pullmans did regularly run with missing coaches (I saw the YP in the morning 4 days a week and the TTP late lunch 2 days a week at Leeds in the late 1980's), I think that is partly why they moved the TRFK/3rd TF  several times to newly refurnished sets NL47/NL22/NL37 and HT05/HT34/HT35 to improve reliability. The TTP only ran 9 cars officially in 87/88 while in set HT34 until it moved to HT35. The YP did run with 9 cars for a very limited time in 87/88 this could be due to set swapping NL47 to NL22 and/or as they used the TTP set which was in the wrong place. In this period NL was a level 5 depot for HST while EC/HT/BN were only level 4 so it was not unknown for any ECML/IMLX set to turn up.     

[45125]

The TTP sets extra TF was 41066, which was fitted with a telephone booth. The TTP set which made regular appearance at NL on Saturday nights, this formation would need a double shuffle in the shed as the rear power car couldn't be serviced as the NL at the time was only st up for 2+7 and 2+8 at the time.

 

WR power cars were not that unusual on XC sets at this time. Later on the eighties it became very common, the Mirrlees power cars all turned up at NL not long after they were converted.

 

Al Taylor

[Bomag]

The 'extra' coaches in the Pullman sets varied over time (not taking into account maintenance swaps):-

 

YP 41046 NL47 then 41041 NL22/NL37 (only one TRFK 40501)

TTP 41171 HT05 then 41066 HT34/HT35, 40505 then 40511

 

This the reason why the trains look different while in ICE livery.