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Building a Midland Railway Kirtley Goods: working on the motion.


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Hello all,

 

I have, after 3 try’s, successfully bought a Keyser kit for a Midland Railway Kirltey goods, my favorite locomotive. 
 

Now, as many know, Keyser kits aren’t the greatest, so much work will need doing to make it presentable on my dad and I’d dads north Wales layout. So Gibson wheels will most likely be bought, along with extended axles and flycranks. A modern motor will probably also be procured, or I may keep the very last version of the K’s motor supplied with the kit. 
 

Then there is the question of livery. Midland Green? Midland red? Midland goods brown? Midland black? LMS red or black? BR black? So many choices! 
 

Here’s a photo from the eBay listing, showing what can be achieved. 
 

E163BF35-A8E9-471B-9230-9E60CF8E7EBA.jpeg.a329858580cb1c5dd685531099fd2e44.jpeg

 

Douglas

 

Edited by Florence Locomotive Works
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Best of luck.   Getting various bits square and vertical is always a challenge on K's kits.   The last K's motors were dire but I have found the older ones are better than Anchoridge replacements for actually pulling trains. They are so heavy and sure footed that small motors tend to overheat when using that haulage.   Best of luck with the quartering, you might find the K's originals work well while the Gibsons look better and don't work particularly well.   I would stick a motor in the tender and drive the loco wheels through a drive shaft.

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40 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Best of luck.   Getting various bits square and vertical is always a challenge on K's kits.   The last K's motors were dire but I have found the older ones are better than Anchoridge replacements for actually pulling trains. They are so heavy and sure footed that small motors tend to overheat when using that haulage.   Best of luck with the quartering, you might find the K's originals work well while the Gibsons look better and don't work particularly well.   I would stick a motor in the tender and drive the loco wheels through a drive shaft.

Thanks for the advice David,

 

I had a problem on my last K's kit, a outside framed GWR Beyer goods with the cranks splitting around the pin. It could have been the age of the plastic though.

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Shortly after RM Deeley took over, a short lived experiment with some Kirtley 0-6-0s having a "non-standard" crimson lake and some finished in an unlined brown livery, of which there is a colour swatch in the back of George Dow's Midland Style, but no numbers.

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31 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

brown? thats new one for me

Here's a brown Slater's one. 

 

I quite like it actually, and it seems a but more interesting than black, but less complicated than fully lined crimson.

(credit)

image.png.e4e717c0539d24e9113bcc70155d2ac9.png

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2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Hello all, ...snip... Midland Green? Midland red? Midland goods brown? Midland black?

Douglas

Black. To the best of my knowledge Colorado Midland's locos were black. :jester:

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4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Hello all,

 

I have, after 3 try’s, successfully bought a Keyser kit for a Midland Railway Kirltey goods, my favorite locomotive. 
 

Now, as many know, Keyser kits aren’t the greatest, so much work will need doing to make it presentable on my dad and I’d dads north Wales layout. So Gibson wheels will most likely be bought, along with extended axles and flycranks. A modern motor will probably also be procured, or I may keep the very last version of the K’s motor supplied with the kit. 
 

Then there is the question of livery. Midland Green? Midland red? Midland goods brown? Midland black? LMS red or black? BR black? So many choices! 
 

Here’s a photo from the eBay listing, showing what can be achieved. 
 

E163BF35-A8E9-471B-9230-9E60CF8E7EBA.jpeg.a329858580cb1c5dd685531099fd2e44.jpeg

 

Douglas

 

If your kit has the same smoke box and chimney as this one then the only livery, MR, LMS & BR is plain black. Just a note, the brown ones were MR with earlier Johnson chimney/smokebox and the colour was the purple brown undercoat for the crimson lake which was varnished as an economy measure.  It seems to have been applied to only a few locomotives .

I have two of these bought made up off eBay one day I hope to get them working. 

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36 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

If your kit has the same smoke box and chimney as this one then the only livery, MR, LMS & BR is plain black. Just a note, the brown ones were MR with earlier Johnson chimney/smokebox and the colour was the purple brown undercoat for the crimson lake which was varnished as an economy measure.  It seems to have been applied to only a few locomotives .

I have two of these bought made up off eBay one day I hope to get them working. 

It’s not intended to be 100% accurate, as its going to be the 11th of the 10 engines made by John Fowler & Co (Leeds) in 1870. 

Edited by Florence Locomotive Works
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2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Douglas,

Have you seen this thread?  It will not help with the build but the modelling is fantastic.

Indeed I have seen that thread, it’s what initially got me onto RMweb. Fantastic modeling indeed, I must ask him what flycranks he uses on his engines. 

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You don't say what gauge you are going to use. I built one of these to EM. It runs beautifully on straight track but the wheels foul the outside frames on curves.  You can use insulation tape to stop them shorting out but there is still a severe lack of space to allow for a bit of sideplay. I guess it will be ok in 00. Also personally I would use Markits rather than Gibson wheels. Their outside cranks are more substantial.

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3 hours ago, John-Miles said:

You don't say what gauge you are going to use. I built one of these to EM. It runs beautifully on straight track but the wheels foul the outside frames on curves.  You can use insulation tape to stop them shorting out but there is still a severe lack of space to allow for a bit of sideplay. I guess it will be ok in 00. Also personally I would use Markits rather than Gibson wheels. Their outside cranks are more substantial.

It will just be standard OO John.

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On 19/01/2021 at 18:16, Florence Locomotive Works said:

It’s not intended to be 100% accurate, as its going to be the 11th of the 10 engines made by John Fowler & Co (Leeds) in 1870. 

I have an O scale Challenger (4-6-6-4) scratchbuilt to no specific prototype; I am going to letter it for the Western Maryland as #1213 (WM had 1201 > 1212). It will be "leased" to my own railroad, the Eastern Maryland. Your idea is a good one.

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  • Florence Locomotive Works changed the title to Midland pre-groupery, a Kirtley goods 0-6-0, its accompanying layout and who knows what else.
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In which year(s) is the North Wales layout?

 

The subject of brown Midland engines is an interesting one but there is insufficient primary source evidence (at least, that I have been able to find) to be certain about any of the details. A lot of the information I have on it came from discussions with my friend the late David Tee, who was probably the most knowledgeable person on the subject of Midland locomotives for many a year. From what we have been able to piece together it seems that starting around 1899 or 1900 some goods engines had the black and straw lining omitted when they were repainted and were turned out in plain crimson lake. This dating would suggest that the 'locomotive famine' which was affecting a number of British railway companies was possibly the reason for this move as omitting the lining would get an engine back in service a few days earlier following a works visit that called for repainting. An even quicker way would be to omit the crimson lake altogether and simply apply the final varnish coats over the oxide of iron undercoat. Since the oxide of iron was a much darker shade than what we now know as red oxide and the varnish added further depth, the result would have been the brown finish, sometimes referred to as dark brick red in contemporary reports. This reasoning was first proposed by David Tee. These unusual finishes - plain crimson lake and brown - were ordered to be discontinued in late 1905 and a return made to fully lined crimson lake but given the repainting schedules of Midland engines it is likely that some could still be seen for at least a few years afterwards. It could even be that the last examples went straight to plain black, which probably began as early as 1906 but was ordered to become general in February 1910. 

 

Whether any brown engines ever had Deeley smokeboxes is actually unknown, albeit unlikely. Deeley's instruction that all B boilered locomotives that needed new smokeboxes were to have ones with his first pattern of smokebox doors was issued in November 1905 so the overlap in dates with the painting details outlined above mean that however unlikely it is possible that such a thing as a brown DF 0-6-0 with a Deeley smokebox door could have been seen for a short time.

 

I think that the bottom line of my ramblings is that if a date of 1906 - 1910 would suit your layout, go ahead and paint your engine brown and if anyone disagrees, ask them to prove their point. But do make it a steam brake only locomotive.   

 

Dave   

Edited by Dave Hunt
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Well I dug out my old Liverpool and Manchester micro layout out from the depths of my closet today. And to my suprise, it was still serviceable. So I ran my L&M 0-4-0, but went and got my Bachmann 3f. 

 

 

IMG_2125.jpg.b211cc77cc1035c73949bf6379c30b19.jpg

 

This engine will accompany the Kirtley in its adventures. 

 

The layout is, more or less, a shunting plank with a fake sector plate at one end. this will need replacing in order to run tender engines. Assuming of course the Kirtley with its rigid frame and Gibson wheels can get through the points, something my K's GWR Beyer Goods was unable to do. One of the retaining walls is missing a piece, but this was found and will be installed shortly. One side of the layout has the station building, and the other a victorian tenement block with covered good siding. this siding, as it is unpowered, will probably have some horse shunting going on. the fiddle yard is just a single piece of Hornby track. All the track is Hornby, for reasons I forget.

 

IMG_2123.jpg.aa7eaf352fa80038ee09b4bade35a2e5.jpg

 

Above we see the covered siding, and one of the washrooms for the tenement block. Currently there is up and coming journalist inside interviewing people about what he thinks are appalling living conditions.

 

IMG_2118.jpg.998994cf6e2c56ad5ff73797205cd2b0.jpg

 

The 3f posed in a shunting position. It took some doing!

 

IMG_2124.jpg.9f5bc131388a25d7eb70f9e8a89a3afd.jpg

 

Looking what will probably be south towards the station.

 

Douglas

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53 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

In which year(s) is the North Wales layout?

 

The subject of brown Midland engines is an interesting one but there is insufficient primary source evidence (at least, that I have been able to find) to be certain about any of the details. A lot of the information I have on it came from discussions with my friend the late David Tee, who was probably the most knowledgeable person on the subject of Midland locomotives for many a year. From what we have been able to piece together it seems that starting around 1899 or 1900 some goods engines had the black and straw lining omitted when they were repainted and were turned out in plain crimson lake. This dating would suggest that the 'locomotive famine' which was affecting a number of British railway companies was possibly the reason for this move as omitting the lining would get an engine back in service a few days earlier following a works visit that called for repainting. An even quicker way would be to omit the crimson lake altogether and simply apply the final varnish coats over the oxide of iron undercoat. Since the oxide of iron was a much darker shade than what we now know as red oxide and the varnish added further depth, the result would have been the brown finish, sometimes referred to as dark brick red in contemporary reports. This reasoning was first proposed by David Tee. These unusual finishes - plain crimson lake and brown - were ordered to be discontinued in late 1905 and a return made to fully lined crimson lake but given the repainting schedules of Midland engines it is likely that some could still be seen for at least a few years afterwards. It could even be that the last examples went straight to plain black, which probably began as early as 1906 but was ordered to become general in February 1910. 

 

Whether any brown engines ever had Deeley smokeboxes is actually unknown, albeit unlikely. Deeley's instruction that all B boilered locomotives that needed new smokeboxes were to have ones with his first pattern of smokebox doors was issued in November 1905 so the overlap in dates with the painting details outlined above mean that however unlikely it is possible that such a thing as a brown DF 0-6-0 with a Deeley smokebox door could have been seen for a short time.

 

I think that the bottom line of my ramblings is that if a date of 1906 - 1910 would suit you layout, go ahead and paint your engine brown and if anyone disagrees, ask them to prove their point. But do make it a steam brake only locomotive.   

 

Dave   

 

Thank you for that Dave, that was the most interesting thing I've read all day.

 

The engine probably won't do much running on the North Wales layout, with is set in the mid 50's. 

 

However as you see in my last post, I have my own albeit small layout, which will probably become the engines home. 

 

I'm also considering Midland green, like this one seen here on @DaveFs layout. All credit to him for the photo

 

This would of course require me to file off the Deeley SB door to a flat surface, and add rivets and panel lines in the outline of a Kirtley SB door.

 

The one below is No 1054, seen at Derby Works 1880s. Taken from: Stephen Summerson "Midland Railway Locomotives." Volume Two: The Kirtley Classes, Irwell Press 2007.

 

 

Good Heavens thats a huge photo.

 

IMG_2126.jpg.2d71041250343c3f8a494d6fa90913d2.jpg

 

 

The Kirtley boiler on the above engine is also marginally wider than a Johnson or Deeley one, but it would be hard to notice. The chimneys also appear to have a maybe 1/2-1 inch difference in height, compared to the Johnson smokebox and boilered engine right next to it which I cropped out. 

 

Douglas

 

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The dark Midland green was discontinued in the mid 1870s in favour of a much lighter green that Johnson introduced that in its turn was superseded by crimson lake in 1883, the reason being that the green faded and discoloured quite quickly whereas the lake was a much less fugitive pigment. Reputedly the last Midland engine to be painted green was 0-4-4T No. 1636. Thus the last dark green engines would probably have lasted no later than about 1880 whilst the lighter green would probably all have disappeared by about 1889.

 

Dave

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Took the time this evening to put a light wash over the station. And what a difference it made! It now looks properly caked in soot. The building is by Vollmer, and I believe called “large workshop.” The retaining walls will get the same treatment, but some more black paint needs procuring. 
 


29F5DD1F-6799-4AF6-B5F1-F286B1DE0A12.jpeg.2baad110eadef7a07af997ae2e6b3fc8.jpeg
 

Douglas

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5 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

@Dave Hunt and @Compound2632,

 

Would either of you two now what the carriage livery’s would have been during the dark green period? I’m guessing that wagons would have simply been Midland grey.

 

Douglas

 

Same as ever - crimson lake. There's a beautifully-preserved Kirtley carriage at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterly, that gives an idea how carriages built pre-1874 were finished; for carriages built from 1874 onwards, the livery was unchanged throughout the Midland period and well into LMS days, apart from changes to the style of lettering from 1905 and simplification of the painting of the underframe.

 

Wagons, as you say, grey. There's some slender evidence for black ironwork in the 1860s. The large letters M R came in from the early 1880s, first on the private owner wagons the company was buying up, then opens, finally other wagons in the 1890s. So in the dark green period, very few wagons would be lettered. Also, at this time the 3-plank dropside wagons would have been the dominant type, accounting for over half the company's goods wagons until overtaken by the bought-up private owner wagons in the mid/late-1880s.

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Right, so some may be wondering what the plan is.

 

Said plan is to build the kit, and fit with a semi modern motor and gearbox. Or I may keep the K's one, on the grounds of cost. Advise wanted. The kit will be painted and lined in early Midland dark green, and have a Kirtley smokebox, Johnson Chimney and Johnson B-boiler. I'm almost sure that combination never existed, but am happy to be proved wrong. Gibson wheels will also almost certainly be fitted. The tender will be built straight from the kit though, with the K's wheels. Should I do some lite weathering? I know the Midland is famous for its army of underpaid, overworked and probably underfed cleaner boys, but would such a thing have exist in 1877?  

 

Help is also need building a 1870s goods train. My main question is what did the brakevans look like? I know wagons pretty much looked like edwardian ones, only with less brake gear.

 

On to the layout bit. I'm hoping to super-detail the layout, and add some sort of plaster under the rails up to the height of sleepers, very similar to what @Mikkel did on his much admired layout(s). The retaining walls are beginning to get the soot treatment, more will be posted on that today. A wagon turntable and capstan might also be added in front of the tenement block.

 

Douglas

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Just now, Florence Locomotive Works said:

a Kirtley smokebox, Johnson Chimney and Johnson B-boiler.

 

What's this? [MRSC Item 60494].

 

4 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Should I do some lite weathering? I know the Midland is famous for its army of underpaid, overworked and probably underfed cleaner boys, but would such a thing have exist in 1877?

 

Maybe not dirt, but certainly worn paintwork - rubbed down by all those lad cleaners.

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What's this? [MRSC Item 60494].

 

 

Maybe not dirt, but certainly worn paintwork - rubbed down by all those lad cleaners.

 

Fantastic Stephen, I'll put both of those to good use. The post you quoted just got significantly edited, so you may want to take another pass as the RAF might say.

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