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Building a Midland Railway Kirtley Goods: working on the motion.


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Well folks I have encountered the first major difficulty facing the freelance pre grouping modeller.

 

 

Rolling stock.

 

What do we think it should look like? 

 

The railway is based on 1850s Egyptian practice, but finding photos of anything other than the engine is quite difficult. This isn't a good thing as most of the inspiration was supposed to come from that.

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

Douglas

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3 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Unfortunately I think I’ve seen every photos on google of their collection, thank you though. 

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10 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Well folks I have encountered the first major difficulty facing the freelance pre grouping modeller.

 

 

Rolling stock.

 

What do we think it should look like? 

 

The railway is based on 1850s Egyptian practice,

I would refer back to Burgundy's comment of Feb 16th. US & UK practice diverged from very early on, because American trains faced challenges a British-built railway did not. Hence the early adoption in the US of bar frames for locos, trucks for rolling stock, and eventually the buckeye coupler as standard.

If you want to base a model on British built, Egyptian practice (which to all intents and purposes was British practice) railways, then why not model that, instead of trying to shoehorn in UK practises to a Country that quite simply didn't use them? Models of railways set in Africa are very few & far between; you'd have something very distinctive & individual, but also very plausible as well, as opposed to highly unlikely.

Just a thought. 

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10 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Rolling stock.

What do we think it should look like? 

The railway is based on 1850s Egyptian practice, but finding photos of anything other than the engine is quite difficult. This isn't a good thing as most of the inspiration was supposed to come from that.

Any suggestions?

Douglas

I assume that Egyptian State Railways followed much the came practice as many other colonial railways, financed with British capital; they bought from UK builders. Therefore you could get a reasonable idea of the British way of dealing with extreme heat by looking at, say, Indian or Sri Lankan examples.  

1364482274_1MarchDelhiMetrecarriage.JPG.4b24d8ed67d508e2c70f620c8737be05.JPG

1535045424_1MarchDelhiMetrePOWsaloon.JPG.6a7bd7e6f3233ab6f2dd63a998c8c0f3.JPG

Two metre gauge examples from the Indian Railway museum in Delhi and this more modern one from Sri Lanka.

DSC00380.JPG.a0fc12858c69ad516c3474131109382f.JPG

As @F-UnitMad suggests, you  might also want to have a look elsewhere in Africa. Railways in America and funded with American capital, really did follow a different evolutionary path.

Best wishes 

Eric 

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I do tend to agree that trying to portray an American system in the 1850s using British built stock will be difficult at best. Without wishing to pour cold water on your schemes, Douglas, I think that if you want to use the Kirtley 0-6-0 and other British outline models you would be better off trying to depict a colonial railway of some sort or even return to your original idea of something in the Sheffield area, even if it were imaginary. However, I do praise your efforts with the Ks kit and your other modelling activities. Don't get disheartened by setbacks, we all have them.

 

Dave

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I can very much see the attraction of a colonial railway, however then I would be missing the Santa Fe part. So here is a possible idea:

 

 

I could do something along the lines of the Anglo Chilean Nitrate Railway, which was built by the British, and designed by one of the sons of Robert Stirling, inventor of the stirling engine, and also father of Patrick Stirling, the former GNR CME.

 

I suppose my "argument" is that it could be possible to have a British built railway in a desert that wasn't in a colony. So, perhaps the Santa Fe and Tesuque railway was built to serve a nitrate mine in the New Mexico desert, discovered by a prospector from Lancashire who had in what seemed like a previous life been an apprentice at Edge Hill on the Liverpool & Manchester?

 

As an example of the British rolling stock, here's what looks like a Neilson saddle tank abandoned at one of the mines in the Atacama.

 

image.png.9caa3cfed86c14e72b1bb85f99d91aad.png

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-31090757

 

Constructive criticism is happily accepted.

 

Douglas

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Here's a source that might prove useful to you for Egyptian and colonial railway photographs: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/albums/with/72157704339588205

I am unaware of any railway in the United States that emulated British practice in any significant regard after the most formative years. However, certain of the railways of Mexico received British capital, staff, and motive power; this may well be the best route for you to take in devising your desired British desert railway. If you must set it in the U.S., you could do worse than to adopt the following explanation, that the SF&T (or SF y T) began as a Mexican railroad funded by British capital, which, after initial failure in securing finances (for such a railway may well have failed to be remunerative), was bought out by American interests and, so as to procure sufficient traffic, extended across the border into El Norte, thereby providing another north-south railway link.

 

 

BRMex.jpg

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2 hours ago, Cunningham Loco & Machine Works said:

Here's a source that might prove useful to you for Egyptian and colonial railway photographs: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/albums/with/72157704339588205

I am unaware of any railway in the United States that emulated British practice in any significant regard after the most formative years. However, certain of the railways of Mexico received British capital, staff, and motive power; this may well be the best route for you to take in devising your desired British desert railway. If you must set it in the U.S., you could do worse than to adopt the following explanation, that the SF&T (or SF y T) began as a Mexican railroad funded by British capital, which, after initial failure in securing finances (for such a railway may well have failed to be remunerative), was bought out by American interests and, so as to procure sufficient traffic, extended across the border into El Norte, thereby providing another north-south railway link.

 

 

BRMex.jpg


This man, (or woman) deserves high praise for such an idea. It shall be out into place immediately. Thank you. 
 

Is that 0-6-0 a Mexican British built engine?

 

Douglas

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First, let me say that it is your (small) world that you are creating and if you want to model a British railroad in the US southwest; well, GO FOR IT! Model railroads are fantasies anyway; why, some even have an extra rail up the middle!

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As a break from the very interesting discussion of the basis for the layout, some more modeling has been done in recent past. By this I mean the fitting of a Markits turned brass smokebox dart. I think I might scrape the black paint off it and leave it brass, it would give something for the cleaners boys to do. 
 

A20D01E8-0476-4163-B4BF-3AD46AA6A2D2.jpeg.41b56bcde90dfef21f71ba8aeff3d3f7.jpeg

 

In the very scathing close up shot above we see the dart, and a terribly obvious splodge of red paint on the connecting rod. Oh well, I suppose it adds character but will probably get removed. 
 

Douglas

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57 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

In the very scathing close up shot above we see the dart, and a terribly obvious splodge of red paint on the connecting rod.

To be pedantic, that's a coupling rod.  The connecting rod runs from the crosshead to the driving axle.

 

Jim

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A new (prospective) plan, that will not please many, except maybe @J. S. Bach (:biggrin_mini:).

 

Said plan would be.....

 

 

Hon3 gauge.

 

This arose as a off hand suggestion from @kiwiokie (dad) about maybe doing a fictional extension of the Cumbres and Toltec. I have always liked narrow gauge, mostly because the Durango & Silverton was the first heritage railway I ever visited, at age five. We rode all the way up the line (4 hour journey) in one of the open sided cars, and acquired ash’s in our hair for weeks. 
 

So the probable plan would be to have a railroad that runs from Santa Fe to Chama NM, where it would join the C & T. And I’ve even found a way to slide in some British rolling stock.


In 1904 Kerr Stuart of Stoke-on-Trent received an order from the soon to be Mexican Railways for some American style bar framed 2-8-0, one of which is pictured below. After arrival in Mexico, they got more American chimneys and dogleg smokebox doors, an example of these is preserved on a plinth.


4CF59C69-A5B0-48F7-A21F-84A021A51C29.jpeg.4f9b5a1482ca725b829574c1035084a3.jpeg

 

(Credit)


So perhaps the Santa Fe, Tesuque* & Chama Railroad commissioned a D&RGW K-27 from a Kerr Stuart for some reason?

 

38EED3EA-6449-4CA8-AAF9-AD2EE1AF7D02.jpeg.ef60fa10dd2ec7e92297368eff8cfa81.jpeg
 

 

Your questions, comments, etc are welcomed.

 

Douglas

 

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45 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

A new (prospective) plan, that will not please many, except maybe @J. S. Bach (:biggrin_mini:).

Said plan would be.....

Hon3 gauge.

This arose as a off hand suggestion from @kiwiokie (dad) about maybe doing a fictional extension of the Cumbres and Toltec. I have always liked narrow gauge, mostly because the Durango & Silverton was the first heritage railway I ever visited, at age five. We rode all the way up the line (4 hour journey) in one of the open sided cars, and acquired ash’s in our hair for weeks.

So the probable plan would be to have a railroad that runs from Santa Fe to Chama NM, where it would join the C & T. And I’ve even found a way to slide in some British rolling stock.

Your questions, comments, etc are welcomed.

Douglas

 

 

My suggestion would be starting with Bachmann's On30 equipment, some of it is quite good. I especially like their Baldwin 4-6-0.

 

Santa Fe to Chama NM would have some interesting geography to transit. Plus, it could serve Los Alamos; some very interesting loads there!

 

Cumbres & Toltec at Chama, NM:

First, my favorite, a GE 44 tonner:100_8991.JPG.05d0adacb0a02c91ffb81e4fed1bf837.JPG

 

Try fitting DCC in this:

100_9000.JPG.8ec1583b8b82472074311bcdc3758a5b.JPG

 

more track equipment:

100_9038.JPG.d730c379a6d2ce87704782864a165e2e.JPG

 

What it is all about:

450393635_0164100_9022posted28jan18.JPG.0390217436db2b2e6db7a856093937b0.JPG

 

As for a fictitious extension, this track at one time ended up in Farmington, NM:

100_9046.JPG.46e82ea86dded3b209eb3f6da0feecb3.JPG

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

Greetings ladies and gentlemen, I have returned!

 

 

Thank you for the thunderous applause. 

 

So, what all has happened since February? Well, not much. The engine has, however, been fitted with a Johnson smokebox and the Egyptian style can roof removed. The pinion fitted to the middle axel has also been removed, in preparation for the fitting of a representation of inside motion. 
 

Yes, you read that correctly, inside motion. I’m not sure whether or not it will be working, but I would like the majority of it to be there. This also means I won’t be motoring the engine. This is ok as I am in the process of planning a non scenic layout, with operating point and signal rodding, so I can simply move the engine along like on many of the signaling layouts built for company’s before the grouping. 

 

0AFD7F34-C5DB-4F12-8558-C4A47602FAD2.jpeg.f72cab467122ef1db42fe2a8fa865c1c.jpeg


Douglas

 

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10 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Greetings ladies and gentlemen, I have returned!

Douglas

I can see you now stepping out of the boat into the surf, wading up to the beach. :jester:

 

 

10 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 Thank you for the thunderous applause.
Douglas

Thunderous? Well, maybe not, but welcome back.

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Afternoon all,

 

 

Progress has been made, namely the slide bars have been constructed. Thus are made from 3mm OD brass tube, squashed in a vise until they are flat. Obviously they are not separate slide bars, (although the slide depression in the middle of each suggests it in low light) as that would be pushing my fabrication skills in brass. Next up will be fake cross head and piston rods, or maybe a cylinder block. 
 

 

Here are a few photos.

 

4AE15044-0551-45CA-924C-359EE558CB3C.jpeg.f8f302ad3bc178b6c6fb20c35936ae33.jpeg
 

D76CC83F-8224-4996-B289-BB003215D456.jpeg.6818bac88848fd3485f9b95326a0af8a.jpeg

 

BA413A8B-D54E-4C6B-AA1D-CD9887C023F8.jpeg.d954e5048c3ee4948e1db75b65808a6a.jpeg
 

Im also having thoughts of perhaps modify this engine into what I think S.W. Johnson might have made as an experimental 2-6-0 goods engine, thoughts are wanted.  Below is the prototype, the bogie will be made to swivel.

 


780FEA46-3BA0-40E9-93A0-AC36F78A5979.jpeg.0ecd5015c47c2c321c9725b55369cbe4.jpeg

 

 

Douglas

 

(also if anybody has built a Slaters 7mm kit of this engine and they would be happy to share photos of its motion then feel free to post or PM them to me, it would be very much appreciated)

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Evening all,

 

Here I present what a Kirtley 2-6-0 heavy goods engine would have looked like after rebuilding by Johnson. I think it came out fairly well, and the front section is easily removable should I need to return the engine back to a 0-6-0. The top deck of the front section is made from balsa, and the framing is styrene. All in all I don’t think it’s looks completely implausible. The red from the original buffer beam does need covering up though.

 

4109C77B-FCAA-4E74-AE79-36CE9318D24B.jpeg.5685ee3819e1903a041271bc54254056.jpeg
 

38CDEB3C-025D-4C9D-A723-8E37980C1BC7.jpeg.2638143e1609d04048447aac161802c8.jpeg

 

EFB095CD-5C93-43D3-9716-641DF6E4F098.jpeg.5f8a2aec9af228bba1f6cc1aea40400f.jpeg

 

Douglas

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Right, back to the realm of reality. 
 

 

Work on the motion has continued. This has consisted of carving a cylinder casting out of line. This is harder then you think it is, as it also has to have a cutout to fit over the front coupled axle, which at first I didn’t take into account. 
 

However I prevailed, and there is a now a probably not very scale cylinder between the frames. Now it just needs painting, and I shall revert back to @Dave Hunt’s writings on vermillion from earlier in this thread. 
 

Here are a few photos.

 

6DC3C8F7-0BA9-4A76-AB86-B915F69D8F11.jpeg.836314abc09c7caba9695cdc02a43eda.jpeg
 

872941DA-CA5F-45A7-A530-84DB48E12E1F.jpeg.385d4d90c4a7725f104a2b5589b18ff7.jpeg
 

 

3670E7BF-8ED8-4EE5-B076-324723EDAA8A.jpeg.ed6ed7243ac01f67b34b611eff0c6a6e.jpeg
 

Douglas

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