Building a Midland Railway Kirtley Goods: working on the motion.

[J. S. Bach]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip...I am however unsure about how to remove the massive hump from footplate, which I would like to do as I’ve got a Victorian engine crew from Modelu awaiting assignment. Should I just carefully melt out the center bit with a soldering iron? Or should I get some paint thinner and let it remove the glue around the whole piece? I’m not sure how I would complete the bottom 3/4s of the backhead either. 

Douglas

It might be easier to "adjust" the crew members to fit rather than take a chance on damaging the loco. Just a thought.

 

Whoever built this trolley interior did that to the man in the cover-alls (note the missing lower right arm). Hmmm, I just noticed the attitudes of the passengers facing that monstrous flywheel just a few feet in front of them.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by J. S. Bach

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Well folks she’s running. The contacts are nothing to be proud of, and the tender still needs a good go over with milliput, but there is now, in deepest darkest Oklahoma, a running 4mm Kirtley Goods. Oh how pleased I am to say it. The 5 pole motor is quiet good, and would be better if it had a flywheel, but oh well. The track is quite dirty which is why she’s a bit hesitant. 
 

A few things I left out the build posts.

 

1. I used the K’s wheels, as I can’t afford Gibson wheels.

2. Parts of the Salter springs were replaced with steel wire.

3. I intend to fit Alex Jackson couplings.

 

 

 

 

Douglas

[Dave Hunt]

Well done Mr. McDermott! Probably the first Kirtley DF goods engine to run in Oklahoma.

 

Dave

[CKPR]

18 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Should I just carefully melt out the center bit with a soldering iron? Or should I get some paint thinner and let it remove the glue around the whole piece? I’m not sure how I would complete the bottom 3/4s of the backhead either. 

It all depends on what's underneath (or what's not underneath !) - the mechanical specification of K's kits changed over the years with different wheels and motor systems, so the rather unprototypical cab interior will be related to whichever motor and gear set up was in favour  with K's in the mid-1960s when the Kirtley Goods was first released. One solution would be to use a Slaters MR backhead casting, which should be a direct fit at least for the top of the boiler backhead  [I'm presuming that these are probably as common on the USA as Colorado Midland cabooses are in the UK, so I've sent you a a PM] and leave the rest of it well alone. As an aside, the 1970s were the golden years for modelling the MR in the UK and it's probably still the most readily modelled pre-grouping line as those 1970s rolling stock kits from Slaters and Ratio are still available together with a plethora of r-t-r and S/H locomotives [also, late MR = early LMS !].

Edited January 25, 2021 by CKPR

[Dave Hunt]

I think that now the locomotive is assembled it would be very, very difficult to remove the offending piece of metal without potentially damaging the surrounding bits. Certainly I think that trying to melt it out with a soldering iron would be a short cut to disaster. The only way I can think of would be to use a burr in a hand held drill - a dremel or similar - and very carefully remove the metal and finishing off with hand files. The drawback there is that white metal clings to burrs and files like mad, preventing them after a short while from being effective unless they are cleaned out (no mean job in itself) frequently. For what it is worth, my advice is to leave things well alone and just put the top part of a back head in above the offending lump.

 

Dave

Edited January 25, 2021 by Dave Hunt
Damn predictive text again

[MarkC]

I'd like to add my congratulations - that's a splendid piece of work, especially as you picked up on the frame slots. (I presume that Ks chose the Nielsen locos because the extra metal made the (dummy) outside frames stronger & probably easier to remove from the moulds without damage).

 

The Ks wheels, in this application, were fine, to my mind. I've built a few of these kits over the last 40+ years. The only small caveat is that the plastic cranks can become brittle - don't ask me how I found out - but you do occasionally see replacement sprues of cranks for sale. I got some a year or so ago, after I had a crank break.

 

Mark

[ChrisN]

As to the crew.  @Mikkel uses H0 figures as there is not much room in cabs.  Others, cannot remember who, cut off the inside leg.  I have seen videos of trains leaving the station with both crew members looking out of the side with no hands on the controls, but I doubt they could do that for long.  On my 645 I am going to have the fireman almost outside as he is passing/has passed the single line token to the signal lad.

 

All of that is easier than hacking the loco and maybe getting shards in the motor.  (Of course you would remove the body first.)

[John-Miles]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I get the impression that the Brecon & Merthyr had the status of a Midland Protectorate, more or less, except during the period when the Mahdi Watkin fomented rebellion.

I think this gives a wrong impression. I have looked at the Midland's minutes for negotiations between them and the B&M and the latter were no push over. They managed to obtain decents amounts of cash from the Midland without the histrionics of Watkin when he was in charge of the N&B. My impression was that the B&M was canny and realised that they made good money out of their links with the Midland.

 

Back to the main topic of this thread - the loco looks lovely. I can't wait to see it painted.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

So, layout update time has once again rolled around.

 

The layout now has a name, and setting, kind of.

 

The name is China Gates after the piece written by John Adams, the musician not founding father. The backstory of why this rather crummy looking area of Sheffield is called this is most interesting. 

 

In 1867 Messrs D.M. Bodger and Co (Forgemasters, Sheffield) who are located behind and inside the retaining wall received an order from the court of the Tongzhi Emperor of China for some very very large and ornate cast iron gates with dragons cast into them. These were then to be painted in various dazzling colors. Such was the magnitude of these gates that the Midland Railway had to construct a branch line through rows of tenements to reach the works of  D.M. Bodger and Co (Forgemasters, Sheffield). These tenements proved a quite lucrative untapped market, so before construction had begun the plans were altered for a station to be built, and named, China Gates at the request of the Chinese delegation who had arrived to supervise the construction of both the gates themselves and everything relating to them. Eventually the great day arrived, and a Grafton steam crane was used in conjunction with the works interior crane to lift the gate onto a waiting wagon from behind the green door nearest the tenements. The crane was positioned on the line leading into the station and sidings, with its extra long boom extend over towards the retaining wall. A locomotive was stationed on the around line to the sector plate to assist in moving the wagon. A photo below taken in 1881 shows a few modifications to the rail link of Messrs D.M. Bodger and Co (Forgemasters, Sheffield), most notably the ornate canopy and wagon turntable. The works horse, Cyril, is also pictured. He would eventually die in 1922, having been born in 1875, and his body donated to the Royal Agricultural Society for study. As a gift to the station staff and the people in the surrounding area, the Chinese delegation decreed that every month 7 crates of the finest Earl Grey tea were to be delivered to the station for the next 99 years as a thank you for all their help. 

 

It has also been decreed that the layout is set in 1907, and Messrs D.M. Bodger and Co (Forgemasters, Sheffield) still continue to get quite a bit of business from customers in the far east.

 

 

Some parts of the above story are based on real events, although not in Sheffield. During the Egyptian cotton boom of the 1860s caused by the American Civil War, John Fowler and Co Leeds acquired significant orders for steam ploughing tackle to be shipped to Egypt. While there, one of Fowler's representatives became friends with the then Viceroy's son Prince Halim Pasha. Eventually Pasha became an apprentice at Fowler's Steam Plough Works back in Leeds. He lived in luxury in one of the great railway hotels in Leeds, and would walk to work each day surround by egyptian guards with drawn scimitars. However along his walk if he saw a child, they would be presented with several oranges, a rare commodity in1860s Leeds. Although he was an egyptian prince, records show that he was an extremely good worker and got on well with "the lads." I based the above story somewhat off of this.

 

Douglas

Edited January 25, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

11 hours ago, CKPR said:

 ...snip... I'm presuming that these are probably as common on the USA as Colorado Midland cabooses are in the UK ...snip...

Edited January 25, 2021 by J. S. Bach

[Florence Locomotive Works]

A question for all,

 

Were the wheels on the Kirtley goods painted crimson, or were they just left in plane black or something? I ask as the engine got a very thin coat of primer this evening to show me all the things that need tidying up so to speak. Mostly just microscopic stray blobs of milliput around the firebox and spectacle plate.

 

Douglas

[Mikkel]

10 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

The name is China Gates after the piece written by John Adams, the musician not founding father. The backstory of why this rather crummy looking area of Sheffield is called this is most interesting [snip]

 

That's the best back story I've seen for a while, superb . And as usual, the real-world inspiration is just as good! 

[Dave Hunt]

Douglas,

 

To answer your question about the painting of wheels as well as any other livery queries you may have, below is an extract from what I wrote about the painting of the 700 Class DF goods engines from 1905 to 1910 in Midland Engines No. 4:

 

In late 1904 the first Midland engines appeared in a revised, simplified lining style decreed by Deeley and then, as a precursor to the introduction of the first train control system, two further steps were taken in 1905. Firstly, it was decided that the power classification of a goods engine should be displayed in small brass figures below the cabside running number and secondly that the running number itself should be moved to the tender sides where it was applied in large gilt transfers. Then, in 1906, F. H. Clarke recorded the first instance of a Midland locomotive, 4-4-0T No. 204A, being painted black and in February 1910 the decision was taken that all goods engines should be so treated. Just to complicate things, the whole locomotive stock of the Midland was renumbered in 1907. There were other alterations to engine painting and numbering schemes during this period but none affected the Kirtley DF goods engines.

 

Unfortunately the photographic record during these years is somewhat erratic in terms of accurate dating, which makes life difficult when it comes to piecing together exactly what happened. Also, there are relatively few pictures that I have seen showing the ‘700s’ in the simplified Deeley livery. However, it is known that Deeley was keen to put a stop to the autonomy allowed by Johnson to outstation paint shops and that an order was issued in December 1904 to the effect that variations from the official specifications were no longer permitted. Locomotive Magazine reported in December 1906 that some goods engines were painted black but I don’t know whether any ‘700s’ were so treated before 1910.

 

Bearing in mind that things didn’t happen overnight and that engines could be seen for a while with such mixtures as new running numbers in brass figures on the cabside, the accompanying panel gives what I have observed generally to have been the painting and numbering scheme for a ‘700’ Class engine repainted between 1905 and 1910.

 

 Midland Railway painting and numbering – ‘700’ Class 1905-1910

Boiler & firebox clothing, dome cover, safety valves etc. - Clothing lake. Front clothing band black, fine lined straw on rear edge only, others lake. Angle iron between cab & firebox clothing lake. Dome cover lake, possibly edged black, fine lined straw on inside at first. Salter valve columns, safety valve cover & whistle polished brass. Salter valve levers lake. Ejector, if fitted, lake with polished brass & copper pipework and details. Clacks and pipework polished metal. Handrails lake/black according to adjacent colour.

 

Smokebox, chimney etc. - Smokebox and door black. Door handle black. Lubricators polished metal. Handrail and pillars black. Chimney black. Frames above platform and front fall plates black. From 1906 engines with Deeley smokebox doors had black cast numberplates with raised white scroll and serif numerals.

 

Platform, springs, sandboxes - Platform black. Angle iron lake. Splashers lake, edged black, fine lined straw on inside, tops black. Springs and hangers black. Spring buckles lake, edged black, fine lined straw on inside.

 

Buffer beam, buffers, couplings - Buffer beam vermilion, edged black, fine lined straw on inside. Buffer casings vermilion with black rim, fine lined straw on inside. Serif or sans serif M R on buffer beam, one letter either side of coupling hook. Buffers, hook and links bare metal. Vacuum stand pipe, if fitted, vermilion with straw and black bands adjacent to corresponding buffer beam colours, top and hose black.

 

Frames - Inside faces of inside frames vermilion, outside faces black. Outside frames and separate footstep supports, if fitted, lake. Sandboxes black. Lifeguards lake then black. Makers’ plates above either front or rear frame slots had polished letters with vermilion background.

 

Wheels, axles & motion - Wheels black, fine lined straw on inside of tyres. Axles vermilion. Outside cranks vermilion, edged black, fine lined yellow on inside. Axleboxes black. Brake gear black. Coupling rods often painted between ends, otherwise bare metal. Inside motion weighshaft, bearings, motion plate, weight, valve spindle guides or links and lifting links vermilion. Rest of motion bare metal.

 

Cab - Outside faces of sides and front lake. Black edging, fine lined straw inside, on rear edge of sides, round cut-outs, along eaves and round top edge of cab front (note not on front vertical edges of sides and on front apart from under roof). Cab splashers and springs as above. Brass numerals on cab sides at first with 2in brass power classification numerals below. When running numbers moved to tender, power classification figure moved to upper cab side in front of cut-out. Spectacles polished brass. Pillar handrails black. Inside cab below waist level lake, edged black, fine lined straw inside. Above waist grained oak scumble with white roof (quickly darkening to cream). Firebox backplate black.

 

Tender frames, wheels, platform & springs - As locomotive.

 

Tender buffers & buffer beam - Buffer beam vermilion, edged black, fine lined straw inside. Buffer casings vermilion with black rim.

 

Tender tank - Top black. Sides and rear lake, edged black, fine lined straw inside.  Neilson tenders had rear corners edged black, fine lined straw on inside. On others, top and bottom horizontal edging and lining seems to have been carried round from sides to back with no rear vertical lining. Coping lake. No straw line along top of black below coping. Inside of horseshoe black. Pillar handrails and grab rails black or lake. Numberplates and water capacity plates on rear of tank polished metal with vermilion background. Serif M R on tank sides as before if running number on locomotive cabsides. Locomotive running number moved to tank sides in 14in gilt, shaded black, transfers.

 

The large numerals on the tender tanks were arranged symmetrically about the centre with no attempt to avoid rivet heads as had been done with the letters. The use of serif buffer beam letters seems to have been relatively rare on most Midland locomotive classes but quite a few of the ‘700s’ appear to have had them. In 1909, cast shed code plates painted black with raised, polished numbers appeared on the smokebox doors. In the same year, some contemporary notes suggest that the colour of the outside cranks was changed to lake, edged black and fine lined straw inside, and that the outside frames on some DF goods engines, together with their tender frames, were painted unlined black. I have no further information on this.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Dave

 

 

[ChrisN]

I like the story, very imaginative.  That is a very old horse though, the Midland must treat their horses well.  The GWR reckoned six years for their dray horses.

[Compound2632]

I read that 25 - 30 years is the average life of a horse these days. I'm sure that back in the 19th century the life of a working horse, like that of a working man, would be shorter than nowadays. Sorry to be so gloomy. Here are some genuine Midland horses, photographed at the company's London Road stables in Derby on 16 August 1905:

 

 

NRM DY 2732, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

On 26/01/2021 at 14:36, Compound2632 said:

I read that 25 - 30 years is the average life of a horse these days. I'm sure that back in the 19th century the life of a working horse, like that of a working man, would be shorter than nowadays. Sorry to be so gloomy. Here are some genuine Midland horses, photographed at the company's London Road stables in Derby on 16 August 1905:

 

 

NRM DY 2732, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Yes, but Douglas' horse was carefully looked after and had the good 19th century Sheffield air to keep it going.  Probably walked it up to Penistone once a week on Sundays for its relaxation.  Penistone Moor is just wonderful.

Edited February 16, 2021 by ChrisN

[John-Miles]

Horses were very important to the railways. Almost all railways owned substantially more horses than locomotives and they were looked after. Have a trawl through the MRSoc Study Centre catalogue and you will find quite a few items from the company's vet department. If a man was killed you could get another one for free. Horses cost money.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

Have a trawl through the MRSoc Study Centre catalogue

 

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php

 

Put "horse" into the search and the first item that comes up is this rather endearing letter, MRS Item 21060.

[Mikkel]

That led me down a rabbit hole on the subject of horse chestnuts and acorns! 

 

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/documents/RFB25810-02-216.pdf

 

The explanation for which is here: 

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/heritage-highlights/conkers-help-win-fww/

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

New plan for the engine again.

 

It will be painted in “Goods Brown” I have decreed, as after reading up on fully lined crimson etc, I think it is just slightly out of my ability to do such a thing (am only a teenager). While number 750 was never painted this color, it was allocated to Sheffield, so not everything is a complete fabrication. I also know the correct color of paint available in the USA as I kitbashed a Kirtley goods out of a K’s GWR Beyer goods almost a year ago, and painted it in said livery. However when Dave and Stephen aren't looking I may run some Hatton's Genesis Midland coaches.

 

This kitbash was eventually dismantled and turned into the vague outline of a LCDR small Scotchman, which is really just a GNR small Scotchman. 
 

Douglas

Edited January 26, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

That led me down a rabbit hole on the subject of horse ...

I don’t know if Denmark is different to here, but you need a REALLY big hole for a horse...

[PenrithBeacon]

Even a girl needs a large rabbit hole never mind a horse 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Even bigger new plan for the engine.

 

(groaning noises)

 

I couldn't stand the jumpy K's motor any longer. So it was removed, at the cost of one of the outside cranks. Thankfully K's supplies two as spare. So what will replace the motor?

 

Tender drive. Sort of.

 

The plan now, as I believe @DavidCBroad said at the beginning of this thread is to have shaft drive from the tender to the engine. So a idler gearbox from Northwest Shortline will be bought, along with some shafting and universal joints. I haven't decided what motor to use yet, but it will probably be a double flywheel something or other from a Athearn diesel. This motor will be epoxied to the roof of the tender, with pickups going to the tender wheels. This will allow me to install a fake ash pan and possibly brake gear. However as I can't find any photographs of number 750, i don't know if she had brake gear.

 

I will also be looking into the feasibility of putting wiper pickups on the engine. The main problem being how to isolate them from the chassis.

 

Douglas

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 25/01/2021 at 23:58, Mikkel said:

 

That's the best back story I've seen for a while, superb . And as usual, the real-world inspiration is just as good! 

All inspiration for a backstory at all goes to you and your content sir, I've been reading it since I was 12.

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I will also be looking into the feasibility of putting wiper pickups on the engine. The main problem being how to isolate them from the chassis.

Solder them to piece of pcb, split the copper down the centre and glue that to the chassis?

 

Jim