Livery of GWR 26xx Aberdare Class in BR Days

[Jonathan.M]

Good Evening,

 

I’ve been trying to research the GWR 26xx Aberdare class and what livery they would’ve had in British Railways service. I know that they only lasted until 1949, so would it be reasonable to assume that most (if not all) members that made it into BR would have carried their GWR liveries? Did they ever carry BR liveries?

 

Any photos or information is appreciated.

 

Jonathan.M

[Miss Prism]

I strongly doubt any of the survivors carried BR livery.

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I strongly doubt any of the survivors carried BR livery.

 

And in every photo of them from that period which I have ever seen they were so filthy that the colour underneath would have been guesswork.

[Wickham Green too]

Fair bet they didn't get renumbered ............................................

[Steamport Southport]

I'm assuming the last few survivors that had had a recent repaint were in this condition on withdrawal.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p929357001/eee86a91f

 

Black or green though? I would assume black.

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

Could be wartime black, could be post-1945 green.

 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Fair bet they didn't get renumbered ............................................

According to the RCTS history none of them received either a 'W' prefix to their number or a smokebox numberplate.  As with all other ex GWR engines they were not renumbered after nationalisation.

Edited January 20, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Jonathan.M]

Thank you everyone for the help, greatly appreciated. Even if none of the class carried BR liveries, it still might be fun to imagine what they could’ve looked like  

[Wickham Green too]

Not unlike Steam Railway's April Fool spoof on City of Truro ................... but without the lining.

[Hal Nail]

11 hours ago, Jonathan.M said:

it still might be fun to imagine what they could’ve looked like  

 

Well, they would still look like an ugly Bulldog, but in BR black!

[Wickham Green too]

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder ...................... but they're far better looking than the 'Krugers' !

[The Johnster]

If you can find out when the BR survivors were last given full overhauls, this will fix the date of the their final repaint, which will have been in the livery current on that date.  3 liveries are possible, 'shirtbutton' unlined green for locos painted pre 1942, austerity black G W R initials betwen 1942 and 1945, and, though this is less likely as time is running out, unlined green G W R initials 1945-7.  These survivors were goods locos at a time when even top link express locos were not much cleaned, and for the early BR period extensive weathering is appropriate. 

 

Overhauls were carried out on a mileage basis, so their frequency depended on the type of work the loco performed, so a 26xx that operated on mostly short haul jobs would go longer between works visits than one at shed with a lot of long distance work.  A slow freight loco does not rack up mileage quickly, and during the later war years as the build up to the invasion of France and the logistical support after it, the railway became so congested that mileages were actually further reduced for such locos.  I was told stories at Canton in the 70s of trains taking 10 or 12 hours to get the 18 miles to Severn Tunnel Junction from Cardiff, and the crews being relieved and sent home on the cushions, only to book on 12 hours later, travel to STJ, and relieve the same crew that relieved them, the train having not turned a wheel in the meantime.  This sort of situation may well have delayed overhauls by a  year or so, increasing the possibility that shirtbutton locos were among the BR survivors, not that you'd see it under the muck!

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder ...................... but they're far better looking than the 'Krugers' !

Even Kruger was better looking than the Krugers.  He was a tough old bird, some dem ol' Boers were 'ard as nails, but he probably couldn't haul as much as the Krugers...

[Jonathan.M]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

If you can find out when the BR survivors were last given full overhauls, this will fix the date of the their final repaint, which will have been in the livery current on that date.  3 liveries are possible, 'shirtbutton' unlined green for locos painted pre 1942, austerity black G W R initials betwen 1942 and 1945, and, though this is less likely as time is running out, unlined green G W R initials 1945-7.  These survivors were goods locos at a time when even top link express locos were not much cleaned, and for the early BR period extensive weathering is appropriate. 

 

Overhauls were carried out on a mileage basis, so their frequency depended on the type of work the loco performed, so a 26xx that operated on mostly short haul jobs would go longer between works visits than one at shed with a lot of long distance work.  A slow freight loco does not rack up mileage quickly, and during the later war years as the build up to the invasion of France and the logistical support after it, the railway became so congested that mileages were actually further reduced for such locos.  I was told stories at Canton in the 70s of trains taking 10 or 12 hours to get the 18 miles to Severn Tunnel Junction from Cardiff, and the crews being relieved and sent home on the cushions, only to book on 12 hours later, travel to STJ, and relieve the same crew that relieved them, the train having not turned a wheel in the meantime.  This sort of situation may well have delayed overhauls by a  year or so, increasing the possibility that shirtbutton locos were among the BR survivors, not that you'd see it under the muck!

That’s a thought, any idea where I could find when locos were overhauled?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Jonathan.M said:

That’s a thought, any idea where I could find when locos were overhauled?

1. You need to find out where the Swindon loco history cards are held (possibly the NRM?)

2. Once you've found out where they are you need to establish if there is or isn't a record, on paper or online of what is there and whether or not it includes the 'Aberdares'. (warning the NRM's records of what they have got tend to be variable in their extent).

3. You then need to gain access either to search for them or to look at them if they are catalogued.

 

Best thing to do is start with the NRM search engine because I think lockdown means that most staff in the Science Museum Group museums are not currently attending their normal places of work.  You might have to register to use the search engine. But I think the NRM is the most likely place to start as other record offices etc holding Swindon drawings don't appear to have much apart from those drawings. (which in any case are not loco or rolling stock drawings).

 

The average mileage for shopping older GWR locos was 80,000 miles from the 1930s onwards but WWII upset that considerably and in any case shopping also depended on condition and such thinsg as Boiler Inspectors' reports.  Plus the fact that an engine was shopped didn't necessarily mean that it would have been repainted as that depended in some respects on the category of the repair and might be restricted to patch painting or painting of o particular areas such as the smokebox.

[justin]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

1. You need to find out where the Swindon loco history cards are held (possibly the NRM?)

2. Once you've found out where they are you need to establish if there is or isn't a record, on paper or online of what is there and whether or not it includes the 'Aberdares'. (warning the NRM's records of what they have got tend to be variable in their extent).

3. You then need to gain access either to search for them or to look at them if they are catalogued.

 

Best thing to do is start with the NRM search engine because I think lockdown means that most staff in the Science Museum Group museums are not currently attending their normal places of work.  You might have to register to use the search engine. But I think the NRM is the most likely place to start as other record offices etc holding Swindon drawings don't appear to have much apart from those drawings. (which in any case are not loco or rolling stock drawings).

 

The GWR engine record cards are at the National Archive at Kew.  Definitely paper records with no electronic copy available yet. The GWR records are in number order. Record cards for many locomotives that made it into BR service are grouped into folders based on the year of withdrawal so it is helpful to know these dates before you go.

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Edited January 22, 2021 by justin

[Jonathan.M]

9 hours ago, justin said:

The GWR engine record cards are at the National Archive at Kew.  Definitely paper records with no electronic copy available yet. The GWR records are in number order. Record cards for many locomotives that made it into BR service are grouped into folders based on the year of withdrawal so it is helpful to know these dates before you go.

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Thanks for this, I’ll have to try and get a copy once they open up again.

[Adam]

On 22/01/2021 at 14:00, justin said:

The GWR engine record cards are at the National Archive at Kew.  Definitely paper records with no electronic copy available yet. The GWR records are in number order. Record cards for many locomotives that made it into BR service are grouped into folders based on the year of withdrawal so it is helpful to know these dates before you go.

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

It’s pretty amazing that such a relatively well-known source type has been so comprehensively unreferenced for literally decades that someone like @Stationmaster didn’t know where they might be found. Ok, so railway authors are well known among other historians (declaring an interest that’s my day job), for this, but I still find that amazing. 

 

They’ll be somewhere in the RAIL 254 series based on a quick search of the catalogue. I’ll play with the advanced search later. 
 

Adam

 

PS - these cards are presumably the main source for the various Irwell Press series on various classes, most quoted withdrawal dates and I’ve seen pictures of the things in print all without attribution with isn’t really on. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Adam

[Adam]

Right, after my slightly intemperate musings earlier - but really if using archival material you must cite the source - as this will help other researchers and allow them to check that what you say based on the sources is accurate. Ok, so that's a professional perspective, but it really does help. You might well find that what you're after is contained in the following archival references:

 

TNA, RAIL 254/448

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4350291

 

TNA, RAIL 254/449

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4350292

 

Now I assume that these are bundles of cards in boxes - these are all a bit later (by several hundred years) than the kind of material I routinely handle when I go to Kew so may take a bit of searching through, but no matter. There may be more information, depending on how efficient the updating of records was for the last surviving locos in TNA, AN 7/117:

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C586995

 

For reference, the RAIL series generally refers to pre-Nationalisation records, the AN to post-Nationalisation period (these series belong to the British Railways Board). TNA stands for The National Archives. 

 

Hope that helps,

Adam

[Steamport Southport]

Attribution to who though? Most of this information is well out of copyright.

 

I thought that the railway companies and BR have ceased to exist decades ago....

 

The Aberdares went over 70 years ago. They surely must be in the public domain by now. Just like most of the information in the NRM and other organisations.

 

They also used to flog the Engine Cards off in places like Collectors Corner. Ten a penny at Railwayana auctions. Used to find them at exhibitions in the boxes of old paperwork.

 

BR had numerous copies of each one kept in different places. The head offices would have one, works another, the shed it was allocated to, etc.

 

If you knew about Engine Cards you would know that....

 

So who owns them? They are probably the ones being shown in photographs. Just a thought.

 

 

Yet we are getting lectured about doing research....

 

 

 

Jason

[Adam]

52 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Attribution to who though? Most of this information is well out of copyright.

 

I thought that the railway companies and BR have ceased to exist decades ago....

 

The Aberdares went over 70 years ago. They surely must be in the public domain by now. Just like most of the information in the NRM and other organisations.

 

They also used to flog the Engine Cards off in places like Collectors Corner. Ten a penny at Railwayana auctions. Used to find them at exhibitions in the boxes of old paperwork.

 

BR had numerous copies of each one kept in different places. The head offices would have one, works another, the shed it was allocated to, etc.

 

If you knew about Engine Cards you would know that....

 

So who owns them? They are probably the ones being shown in photographs. Just a thought.

 

 

Yet we are getting lectured about doing research....

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not research, citation. The reference should be to the archive or publication where they were found. It's nothing to do with copyright (though images of archival material may be subject to copyright clearance and fees and material held at The National Archives is more complex than most in that respect: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/re-using-public-sector-information/uk-government-licensing-framework/crown-copyright/) just, if you like, good manners to other people interested in the same thing.

 

You're quite right, I know almost nothing about Engine Record Cards, the uses to which they were put or how many were in circulation and by and large this does not bother me one jot - I'm far more interested in wagons. But I do know and care about documentary research and like to make things clear to people who have to read what I actually do, the nature of my sources and the assumptions I have made. I can't do this in the case of this type of document because, well, I wasn't there at the time and as noted above, people that were are a bit shy of explaining that for whatever reason.

 

So, they're quite a common form of document and often quite ephemeral - this is (probably) where variations in dating events in the lives of locos come from - but if you want to make a systematic survey you'll almost certainly have done one of two things: been to Kew, in which case chances are you've looked at the originals and the information is likely to be presented in a consistent format and gathered by the same person at the same time. If the author is open about this we can check and go back to these records to check whether 1. they have it right or 2. whether there is something else in the record that is interesting for a different reason. 

 

Alternatively, you're simply regurgitating stuff that's appeared in print dozens of times before and which *may not be correct*. Or maybe it is? No one can tell by now and we end up in hearsay and gossip. This happens an awful lot, and not only in railway history (though it is notorious for it). Or, you have your own collection, and are citing from that. Any of these is legitimate but it's only fair that the reader is clear on the provenance of that information. 

 

I hope that explains my position.

 

Adam

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Adam

[Rail-Online]

I think the GWS at Didcot may have copies of the Engine History cards.  Did not Mr Peto use them as lot in his research?

 

Tony