I am considering switching to RC, but need help to undertstand the costs.

[DK123GWR]

I have recently read a little about RC, and I feel that it has the potential to address what I have always found to be the most difficult aspect of 00 gauge - acheiving reliable pickup (especially over points). I recognise that using RC I may be able to get a little more adventurous with track design - with no need to worry about short circuits when considering turntables, sector plates, etc. However, I am finding it difficult to assess the costs involved - partially due to my inexperience in the field.

 

My requirements are very basic, which I hope will help to keep costs down. All I will need for most locomotives is a way of controlling speed. While some of my locomotives feature lights, none of these would be high of my list of priorities for conversion if I were to start using RC. Beyond that, my aim is to minimise costs, especially marginal costs of conversion.

 

One of the problems I have is understanding how many transmitters I would need. The only time I have seen RC used is on 16mm narrow gauge locos, with one transmitter per loco. While this may be acceptable in this scale (where the transmitter represents a smaller fraction of the total cost of a loco and you are likely to have fewer locos) the cheapest transmitters I can find are around the £30 mark. This would already make the marginal cost of conversion higher than the cost of some of my locomotives and would likely make RC unviable after the cost of receivers and batteries is added. As a result, I need to know if it is possible for a transmitter to control multiple locomotives.

 

The next question that I have is around receivers. I have seen references on old RMWeb threads to the technology involved 'costing pence' with very little detail added. However, the cheapest I have been able to find so far are £25 - already £5 or more higher than the price of a Hornby or similar DCC decoder, which is a world away from the dirt cheap technology which I have read about in vague detail but never seen.

 

Finally, there is the question of batteries. This seems like a much simpler issue, since the voltage and current required to run a locomotive at the required speed can be easily measured with a multimeter, and a battery selected to suit. The only real uncertainty here is the receiver, since I don't have a clue what I am using. The cost of batteries seems to vary, from under £10 to almost £20.

 

As you can see, my estimate of the costs are almost useless, varying from an initial outlay of £0 plus a marginal cost of £65 or more to an unknown initial outlay plus a marginal cost of less than £20 (assuming that the receivers costing pence really do exist). The first would be prohibitive while the latter, depending on the cost of a transmitter, could end up cheaper than DCC.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, as I have confidence in the potential of RC but need help to work out the practicalities.

[Simond]

There are quite a few threads on the subject, you'll need to decide whether or not you want sound and what size trains and duration of run you want.  With this info you can decide what receivers & batteries you will need.  The Deltang and similar transmitters will "bind" to multiple receivers and some have a switch allowing you to select one-of-several bound receivers.

 

Many RC builders deliberatly select coreless 6V motors to get better life/performance but that has a cost implication too.

 

Youll presumably want to use rechargeables, so factor in the costs and inconvenience of charging too.

 

Two rail electrification for Analong and DCC is so well understood, and so well documented, there is no need to worry about short circuits in any case. 

 

If that's the only reason you are doing RC, I suspect you will find that it is more inconvenient and more expensive than you can justify. 

 

hth

Simon

[Corbs]

Hello, 

 

I am glad to hear you are thinking of joining the fold! 

 

I was in a very similar position to you and these were my conclusions:

You can either learn how it all works, make your own RC systems and shop around for the best deal with receivers that cost pence etc.

or

Try and get the closest to a 'plug and play' system as possible, accepting the cost will be higher.

 

I settled on the second one, which is why I standardised on Deltang kit from Micron Radio Control.

 

I use one type of transmitter (controller) - the Tx22 which can control up to 12 locos, and one type of receiver, the Rx41.

 

I use single cell batteries because then I don't have to think about things like balance charging which just seems like a complication. I use one type of battery connector for the same reason. All that I had to learn was to join wires together.

 

Do not short circuit batteries and do use safe working practices - this is the main thing to remember.

[KeithMacdonald]

+1 for Micron model rail RC

 

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rc_model_rail.html

[decauville1126]

+2 for Micron.

 

Andy, who runs it, is immensely helpful and has probably heard every potential question there it about Deltang.

 

I too use their TX22 transmitter, and have receivers in 16mm, 7mm, 4mm, and 009 locos.

 

I found this useful:

 

https://riksrailway.blogspot.com/2015/08/getting-started-with-deltang.html

[DK123GWR]

3 minutes ago, Simond said:

Many RC builders deliberatly select coreless 6V motors to get better life/performance but that has a cost implication too.

My plans were primarily to convert RTR stock, using existing motors.

 

4 minutes ago, Simond said:

Two rail electrification for Analong and DCC is so well understood, and so well documented, there is no need to worry about short circuits in any case. T

If that's the only reason you are doing RC, I suspect you will find that it is more inconvenient and more expensive than you can justify. 

That's not the primary reason, but the simplification of wiring is a secondary benefit.

 

6 minutes ago, Simond said:

you'll need to decide whether or not you want sound

No.

 

6 minutes ago, Simond said:

what size trains and duration of run you want.

The locomotives I would initially prioritse would be running at low speed with light loads (shunting/heritage railway style work).

 

8 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Hello, 

 

I am glad to hear you are thinking of joining the fold! 

 

I was in a very similar position to you and these were my conclusions:

You can either learn how it all works, make your own RC systems and shop around for the best deal with receivers that cost pence etc.

or

Try and get the closest to a 'plug and play' system as possible, accepting the cost will be higher.

 

I settled on the second one, which is why I standardised on Deltang kit from Micron Radio Control.

 

I use one type of transmitter (controller) - the Tx22 which can control up to 12 locos, and one type of receiver, the Rx41.

 

I use single cell batteries because then I don't have to think about things like balance charging which just seems like a complication. I use one type of battery connector for the same reason. All that I had to learn was to join wires together.

 

Do not short circuit batteries and do use safe working practices - this is the main thing to remember.

If your conclusions are correct (and I trust that they are) then it looks like I have some research to fill my spare time. I feel that it will be worth it for the potential savings on receivers in particular. Does anybody have any advice for where to start this research - are there any sites which explain how RC works particularly well?

[Corbs]

One thing to remember about converting existing locos is that the older ones are extremely power hungry and will have very short battery life. Newer ones are quite amazing at how long they can go for.

Also if using a 3.7v battery on an RTR loco you are kind of only running at quarter power, unless you use a voltage step-up.

[AndyID]

I was heading in the RC direction. Primarily for controlling shunting locomotives while the rest of the layout does its own thing on automated DC. (At least that is the general idea )

 

But then I wondered if I could get control that was almost as good as RC by simply adding an electronic flywheel to my locomotives. I've been doing a fair bit of experimentation on that and it actually seems to work. One of the big advantages of this method is it's dirt cheap! (Possibly that is a slight exaggeration, but it really is not expensive.)

 

Anyway, there might be a "hybrid" solution here that eliminates the need for batteries in RC locomotives and replaces them with supercaps. The track would still charge the caps but there could be large track power gaps where only the caps would supply power and a bit of dirty track/poor contact would not be a problem at all.

 

This video might give you a sense of how much energy the caps are storing. When I flip the switches to off the loco is running entirely on it's own storage.

 

https://youtu.be/I13EPnmBuz8

 

 

[wasdavetheroad]

3 hours ago, AndyID said:

I was heading in the RC direction. Primarily for controlling shunting locomotives while the rest of the layout does its own thing on automated DC. (At least that is the general idea )

 

But then I wondered if I could get control that was almost as good as RC by simply adding an electronic flywheel to my locomotives. I've been doing a fair bit of experimentation on that and it actually seems to work. One of the big advantages of this method is it's dirt cheap! (Possibly that is a slight exaggeration, but it really is not expensive.)

 

Anyway, there might be a "hybrid" solution here that eliminates the need for batteries in RC locomotives and replaces them with supercaps. The track would still charge the caps but there could be large track power gaps where only the caps would supply power and a bit of dirty track/poor contact would not be a problem at all.

 

This video might give you a sense of how much energy the caps are storing. When I flip the switches to off the loco is running entirely on it's own storage.

 

https://youtu.be/I13EPnmBuz8

 

 

BlueRail Trains first board had essentially what you describe. The receiver seamlessly switched between track power and battery power when the loco was moving and I bought a couple to test. It worked well but the size of the boards was too large for my small UK locomotives and I did not like the smart phone touch screen control, I much prefer knobs and switches. The latest boards are apparently smaller but I don't know how far they got with integrating auto charging through the track, apparently this is electronically doable. When this solution is finally achieved we have reached the holy grail in train control, seamless DC/DCC/battery power with auto on track recharging and controlling your loco either through the rails, DCC, or via direct radio link.

 

I calculated that my layout would have about 2 thirds of the plain track powered and all the fiddly parts unpowered, even without auto on track charging this would essentially triple the capacity of the onboard battery.

[wasdavetheroad]

How much does RC and battery power cost? A complex question but with my experience over a few years in converting about 50 locos with commercially available equipment is adding together the Transmitter, receiver, ancillary electronics such as a voltage booster if needed, batteries, chargers etc etc would suggest allow a budget of about £50 per loco. There are some 'fixed' costs such as the battery charger(s) and the control transmitters(s) which cost less per loco as you convert more locos. This suggests for me a similar investment to going DCC with, for me, the significant advantage of no track wiring.

 

There are a lot cheaper solutions available for those who want to adapt existing control gear etc.

 

Visit  http://www.freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 for extensive discussion, warning there is a lot of information buried there

[Giles]

I have a few RC locos - at present only in 0-14 narrow gauge. I use Deltang's  RX41, with the TX22 and I find them an exceptionally good combination, with very nice adjustable inertia control as a bonus.

 

I tend to make my own chassis due to the gauge, and therefore am able to choose my motor to suit - my choice being a 3 - 5 volt gearmotor. These tend to be very powerful for their size and very efficient. Driving through bevel gears (rather than worm and gear) also helps efficiency, as I strive to get a days operation from my locos for exhibition use.

 

I strongly agree with the above that older generation motors will kill the battery in fairly short order.

 

I would go for Deltang (via Micron) every time. The service has been second to none in more than ten years for me, and the product has been completely reliable. I have about twenty Deltang controlled vehicles etc. at present, and find them very consistent.

[PenrithBeacon]

Like you I'm a beginner, and like most other people on here I have chosen Deltang and I buy from Micron. The greatest cost is the controller but the cost of that can be spread over 12 locos, if, that is, you are planning to have that many. I find Micron to be extremely helpful to beginners like us and the advice alone, as well as the quality of the product retailed, means that I would be daft to go elsewhere.

I found when I converted a Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel I found that while not quite plug and play the conversion was easily done, but it did require some butchery to the insides of the model. My thread might help you, the advice I got on here while doing it certainly helped me.

I agree with 'Corbs' about the issue of older motors in RTR models requiring too much power and my limited experience shows that need to be replaced anyway because of the space they take up in the body (I only do tank engines), space which is needed for a battery. This, I've found, leads to the need to change the motor which will probably lead to kit building a new chassis, but it didn't do so in the Sentinel. It does in the case of the Bachmann Jinty which I'm currently working on. The receiver pcb, switch and charging socket take up no room at all, they can go anywhere that is convenient.

Hope that helps

[Corbs]

On that note, though, the standard Bachmann 3F and 1F 12 volt motors were incredibly power efficient on test. Still not as good as a 3-6v motor but far better than something like the Hornby 'Pug'.

[PenrithBeacon]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

On that note, though, the standard Bachmann 3F and 1F 12 volt motors were incredibly power efficient on test. Still not as good as a 3-6v motor but far better than something like the Hornby 'Pug'.

When I decided to replace the motor in the Jinty I didn't know this, thank you for the info. But they're still big, very big. and, combined with the chassis block, take up the space required for that very important battery and that, I think, is sufficient reason to replace them. I also wanted to change the gauge to P4 which opens up another bunch of possibilities, positive and negative, but hey-ho.

Edited January 21, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Mike Buckner]

12 hours ago, AndyID said:

I wondered if I could get control that was almost as good as RC by simply adding an electronic flywheel to my locomotives. I've been doing a fair bit of experimentation on that and it actually seems to work. One of the big advantages of this method is it's dirt cheap! (Possibly that is a slight exaggeration, but it really is not expensive.)

 

Anyway, there might be a "hybrid" solution here that eliminates the need for batteries in RC locomotives and replaces them with supercaps. The track would still charge the caps but there could be large track power gaps where only the caps would supply power and a bit of dirty track/poor contact would not be a problem at all.

 

Brilliant!  How do you wire the supercaps so that they cope both when the controller is set for forward and then when the polarity is reversed for going in the other direction?

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Mike Buckner said:

 

Brilliant!  How do you wire the supercaps so that they cope both when the controller is set for forward and then when the polarity is reversed for going in the other direction?

 

The circuit is here. It's not very complicated

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159701-keep-alive-for-dc/&do=findComment&comment=4253910

 

[Mike Buckner]

29 minutes ago, AndyID said:

The circuit is here. It's not very complicated

 

 

Many thanks, Andy!

[DCB]

There is nothing quite like the relentless progress of a battery powered loco over uneven track and point work.  

No issues with running in to wrongly set points and tripping the whole layout out like with DCC...

My currently abandoned OO garden line used Lima diesel locos converted to battery power, there were various RC experiments but basically they crawled around at a scale 40mph. Initially they used 9Volt batteries and standard motors, then when they only managed 3X 50 yard trips per non rechargeable PP9 battery I tried   8 X AA cells, then 6X AA cells  and finally changed to Computer motors, Model Torque style with 2 X AA cells.  They lasted all afternoon and more on a charge.

I have often thought of building a dedicated R/C shunter, Banker or station pilot able to assist trains or follow closely behind departing trains under separate control, but I like using different locos as station pilot and need bags of power to get trains up a long 1 in 36 gradient.    I think starting with a suitable station Pilot style loco, 2-6-2T or 0-4-4T converted to RC would be a good start,  Something with a decent amount of space for batteries and R/C not a tiny 0-6-0T. 

Its that ability for one operator to run one loco while another operator separately runs another one on the same track, possibly double heading, or banking which should be one advantage of R/C.  Something offered by DCC but seldom  delivered  and then with full R/C you can forget thousands of droppers and point work becomes so much easier to modify and build without having to bother with isolators... 

Best of all If you don't like it sell it on ,    Or run it on the office carpet to impress your mates,,,,

[ianb3174]

It's long been my intention to go RC. I've got the Deltang controller but subsequently lost a small box containing some small Lipo batteries and 2 recievers. 

[stevel]

On 21/01/2021 at 02:06, Giles said:

I have a few RC locos - at present only in 0-14 narrow gauge. I use Deltang's  RX41, with the TX22 and I find them an exceptionally good combination, with very nice adjustable inertia control as a bonus.

 

I tend to make my own chassis due to the gauge, and therefore am able to choose my motor to suit - my choice being a 3 - 5 volt gearmotor. These tend to be very powerful for their size and very efficient. Driving through bevel gears (rather than worm and gear) also helps efficiency, as I strive to get a days operation from my locos for exhibition use.

 

I strongly agree with the above that older generation motors will kill the battery in fairly short order.

 

I would go for Deltang (via Micron) every time. The service has been second to none in more than ten years for me, and the product has been completely reliable. I have about twenty Deltang controlled vehicles etc. at present, and find them very consistent.

can i ask which gear motors you are, i am starting a new layout from scratch and will be going with the Deltang control etc.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, stevel said:

can i ask which gear motors you are, i am starting a new layout from scratch and will be going with the Deltang control etc.

 

I think the situation with Deltang receivers is a bit fluid. A component that's critical for the Deltang receivers most appropriate for 00 is no longer in production. Others posters here will have more up to date information.

[wasdavetheroad]

6 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

I think the situation with Deltang receivers is a bit fluid. A component that's critical for the Deltang receivers most appropriate for 00 is no longer in production. Others posters here will have more up to date information.

David T at Deltang has posted that additional supplies of the critical component which is the radio chip have been found, sufficient to maintain production until the end of this year. The component problem is with the Rx 6x series of receivers, the ones used for 12V motors plus the Rx47. The rest of the Rx 4x series, up to 6V and 800mA motors does not use the critical radio component.

 

I understand that other manufacturers may be developing replacement receivers, made easier by Deltang using standard model radio control transmission protocols.