purplepiepete Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Could anyone identify the wagons in the attached photo ? I can identify the loco and the location, Whitehaven, which is one of the Shropshire quarries in the Porth-y-waen / Nantmawr area but not the wagons. I am currently building an EM gauge model based on the area, 1950's era, which is around when the photo was taken in 1949. I initially thought these were ex NER/LNER 21T wooden hoppers with the very high sides, however the strapping and general profile don't look right. They may of course be 'specials' just built for internal use or modified 7/8 planks ? Thanks in advance ! Pete. PS I would credit the photo copyright if I knew who it was ! Maybe a local history website ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90164 Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 They look rather like Coke wagons, but the photo isn't terribly clear. 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 I have a feeling the photo might be one of HC Casserley's. It's definitely familiar. Jason 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted January 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 21, 2021 From that image I’d guess they are modified RCH 1923 seven plank wagons. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2021 Plenty XPO minerals with coke rails about in those days, but I can’t think of reason for them at a limestone quarry. Industrial scale lime kilns burning coke perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 11 hours ago, PMP said: From that image I’d guess they are modified RCH 1923 seven plank wagons. Thanks PMP, that's what I suspected. Hard to tell from the photo but it looks like they have had at least a further 2 or 3 planks added ! Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 8 hours ago, The Johnster said: Plenty XPO minerals with coke rails about in those days, but I can’t think of reason for them at a limestone quarry. Industrial scale lime kilns burning coke perhaps? This is very possible, and they do look like coke wagons, so not actually for quarry use The other photos I have from around that time all show either 'standard' minerals or early pattern hopper wagons for moving the stone. There were certainly large lime kilns in the area but I thought they were out of use by the time this photo was taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2021 11 minutes ago, purplepiepete said: it looks like they have had at least a further 2 or 3 planks added ! Coke raves. Similar to this https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/7-plank-wagon-coke-rails-br-p-no-(ex-po)-'cory-brothers'-[w]/37-185a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 The date might be the clue. A shortage of wagons resulting in modified coke wagons being used for coal or stone. Common sense applied to avoid overloading? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2021 There were commercial lime kilns in the area and coke was used as a primary fuel or mixed with coal in some places. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2021 Coke raves on RCH mineral wagon designs modified for carrying coke instead of coal were used because coke is lighter than coal and thus takes more volume at the same weight compared to coal, a matter of maximising the payload of the wagon. I believe some wagons had removable raves and could be used in either role, but you couldn’t carry coal in a coke wagon because, apart from the possibility of overloading the wagon, the loading equipment at the collieries would damage the raves. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Coke wagons. This and other useful photos appear in Mike Lloyd's Tanat Valley book. I haven't got my copy with me at the moment, but judging from the pic these are mostly permanent coke wagons, rather than convertible ones. RCH allowed for fixed or removeable ones in the 1923 spec. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Coke raves. Similar to this https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/7-plank-wagon-coke-rails-br-p-no-(ex-po)-'cory-brothers'-[w]/37-185a Ah yes, perfect thanks ! Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, doilum said: The date might be the clue. A shortage of wagons resulting in modified coke wagons being used for coal or stone. Common sense applied to avoid overloading? Yes I hadn't thought of that - just post war there would have been a shortage of wagons resulting in re-deployments. Thanks, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 32 minutes ago, Quarryscapes said: Coke wagons. This and other useful photos appear in Mike Lloyd's Tanat Valley book. I haven't got my copy with me at the moment, but judging from the pic these are mostly permanent coke wagons, rather than convertible ones. RCH allowed for fixed or removeable ones in the 1923 spec. Agreed and it's obvious now ! Guess these were re-deployed then for carrying quarry stone, unless there was a demand for coke (or coal) at the quarries ? Thanks Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2021 On this site, http://www.oswestry-borderland-heritage.co.uk/?page=57 the photo caption has the load as stone. Lime kilns in the vicinity seem to have closed by then. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 I think I've seen that photo credited as being taken at a couple of locations including, in reverse, at Minera. IMHO they're definitely coke wagons - but are we certain it is taken at Porth-y-waen? What is the structure top right? Locos of that type were, I believe, shedded at Oswestry - but also at Croes Newydd. Pity the number isn't readable. Interesting that you're building a layout based on the area. It's somewhere I've always had an interest in, especially as we lived in Oswestry 1970/71 and I often cycled up and down the Tanat valley. Can you provide any details on your project? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 24 minutes ago, purplepiepete said: Agreed and it's obvious now ! Guess these were re-deployed then for carrying quarry stone, unless there was a demand for coke (or coal) at the quarries ? Thanks Pete. Definitely carrying coke for the kilns, stone went out in open wagons, lime for agricultural use either in peak roofed wagons or sheeted opens. If you haven't already, get hold of Mike Lloyd's tanat valley book and Private Owners on the Cambrian. Loads of photos and some drawings. 12 minutes ago, 5050 said: I think I've seen that photo credited as being taken at a couple of locations including, in reverse, at Minera. IMHO they're definitely coke wagons - but are we certain it is taken at Porth-y-waen? What is the structure top right? Locos of that type were, I believe, shedded at Oswestry - but also at Croes Newydd. Pity the number isn't readable. Interesting that you're building a layout based on the area. It's somewhere I've always had an interest in, especially as we lived in Oswestry 1970/71 and I often cycled up and down the Tanat valley. Can you provide any details on your project? Locomotive is 1331, ex Whitland & Cardigan railway, thoroughly molested at Swindon, which was shedded at Oswestry for work on the Porthywaen branch throughout the 40s. I'd say it's certainly in the vicinity of Porthywaen, though the quarry lines are so extensive where precisely I cannot say! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72460-gwr-1331-ex-whitland-cardigan-0-6-0st-project/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted January 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2021 4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Coke raves. Similar to this https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/7-plank-wagon-coke-rails-br-p-no-(ex-po)-'cory-brothers'-[w]/37-185a Or these https://anticsonline.uk/Product/Peco-R-6-Coke-Extension-Board-Kit-OO_N2859684 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, petethemole said: On this site, http://www.oswestry-borderland-heritage.co.uk/?page=57 the photo caption has the load as stone. Lime kilns in the vicinity seem to have closed by then. Ah thanks for that, and it does seem to confirm quarry stone, rather than coke, was the load. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Quarryscapes said: Definitely carrying coke for the kilns, stone went out in open wagons, lime for agricultural use either in peak roofed wagons or sheeted opens. If you haven't already, get hold of Mike Lloyd's tanat valley book and Private Owners on the Cambrian. Loads of photos and some drawings. Locomotive is 1331, ex Whitland & Cardigan railway, thoroughly molested at Swindon, which was shedded at Oswestry for work on the Porthywaen branch throughout the 40s. I'd say it's certainly in the vicinity of Porthywaen, though the quarry lines are so extensive where precisely I cannot say! Interestingly the photo caption, which I now have from the link sent by petethemole, specifies a stone train ! Screen shot as here. Could well be a mistake of course as it must have been awkward unloading stone from coke wagons ! I think the older traditional kilns had ceased operations in the 1920's / 30's however I may be wrong. Not sure if the more modern types were coke fired ? Given access problems to the area from the former Cambrian and Potts lines it seems unlikely that large quantities of coke would have been brought in by rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 3 hours ago, 5050 said: I think I've seen that photo credited as being taken at a couple of locations including, in reverse, at Minera. IMHO they're definitely coke wagons - but are we certain it is taken at Porth-y-waen? What is the structure top right? Locos of that type were, I believe, shedded at Oswestry - but also at Croes Newydd. Pity the number isn't readable. Interesting that you're building a layout based on the area. It's somewhere I've always had an interest in, especially as we lived in Oswestry 1970/71 and I often cycled up and down the Tanat valley. Can you provide any details on your project? The original photo specifies 'Whitehaven' (probably Pear Tree) quarry, and I think I have identified the location. On the screen shot attached (copyright 'old-maps') I believe the bridge carries the tramway over the line. The layout is in the early stages, and will only be a shelf layout, but I have turnouts built and plain track on the go. It will be more of a finescale representation of the area rather than a specific location as I don't have the space to do this. Will post some pics in a month or two. I live in the Clwydian Range so not too far away, although little to see now other than a short restored section at Nantmawr. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 42 minutes ago, purplepiepete said: I think I have identified the location. I think it's this bridge. The one shown on your map was more of a short cut and cover tunnel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepiepete Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said: I think it's this bridge. The one shown on your map was more of a short cut and cover tunnel. Ah yes - that looks more like it although the photo only shows a single track. However given the much later date (assume the map is much earlier) then this is possible. Complex and confusing arrangement of track work ! Hard to say which is tramway and which is std gauge ! Cheers, Pete 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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