Eurostar seeking financial aid

[phil-b259]

 

2 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Most of the class 373 sets have gone to the big trainset in the sky now. Not sure if their replacements are to UK loading gauge?

 

Andi

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

 

Could be a cheap method of acquiring stock for HS2 or other future electrification projects , Eurostar trains were used on the ECML alongside class 91 sets,  I rode them, pretty  decent trains. an opportunity for a  bargain

 

The 374s are, dimensionally speaking, exactly the same as the Siemens Vero trains used by DB in Germany. As such there is no way they will fit the UKs conventional rail network.

 

As others have highlighted the UK Government sold off its stake in Eurostar over a decade ago  - the majority of shares are now owned by the French Government (via SNCF) and a Canadian Teachers pension scheme. Were Eurostar to cease trading then the class 374 train fleet would most likely be used by the French on domestic or inter - EU train services or sold on to the likes of DB and the reaming 373s turned into razor blades.

Edited January 23, 2021 by AY Mod

[Ron Ron Ron]

The 374’s are well outside the U.K. loading gauge.

Although they’d theoretically fit on HS2, they wouldn’t match the platforms as these are being built at a bespoke height for HS2.

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Is the Chanel Tunnel of strategic importance to the UK ? - Perhaps yes it is, so I do not resent some Government assistance, but this must be in the form of a loan, and if not repaid then a % ownership. We can't afford a gift to a 100% foreign owned company.

 

Brit15

Sorry, this topic is nothing to do with the Channel Tunnel, (except that Eurostar use it for part of their route), which is an entirely different thing.

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

........the UK Government sold off its stake in Eurostar over a decade ago (usual 'lets flog it off for a short term windfall mentality by a certain party who forget they are running a country, not a City investment portfolio) .....

I entirely disagree with you.

The government should have no involvement in a commercial business such as Eurostar, which is not a public service and doesn’t provide for any social transport need.
The UK shareholder, L&CR were being wound up anyway, after HS1 was transferred to a private concession and the UK’s interest in Eurostar was transferred to the treasury pending disposal, the proceeds of which have been put towards the public spending bill.

 

24 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

......the majority of shares are now owned by the French Government (via SNCF) and a Canadian Teachers pension scheme......

Phil, you’re getting confused with HS1.

Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, who held 30% of the shares of the Eurostar holding company, is an institutional investor that manages several public and parapublic pension plans and insurance programs in Quebec. It covers a wide area of the public sector, not just teachers.

Note that an American private investment organisation, Hermes, also holds a 10% stake.

Belgian interest remains at only 5%.

In any event, Eurostar has now been merged with Thalys (SNCF 70% & NMBS/SNCB 30%), so it’s an entirely foreign owned company, with most of its operational focus being directed towards European mainland services.

 

 

 

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[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

As to the low cost airlines

Wizz Air is Hungarian, Ryanair is Irish, Easy Group which owns 33% of Easyjet is registered in the Cayman Islands!

To which, add airports (Heathrow owned by Spanish-led conglomerate, Gatwick operated by VINCI (who, despite their name, are French), with a 50.1% share, the rest being a consortium of investment bankers.

 

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, MarkC said:

As things stand, Eurostar is of no real use to most of the UK, I would suggest, basis time and cost compared to flying. The cost of having to get into Central London & then get across the city (unless arriving at KX or St Pancras anyway), & then your Eurostar ticket, is almost always going to exceed low cost airlines, even with all the add-ons. Had the North of London services got started then things may well have been different, but as it is, no.

 

I would have to, mostly, agree with that. Let's not forget that, in the absence of through services, there was for a while a direct HST between Edinburgh and Waterloo, to connect with Eurostar. It didn't last very long, because not many people used it. The journey time and cost simply could not compete with low cost airlines (except for one of my work colleagues who was a regular customer.... travelling free on a staff pass !). Last time I visited mainland Europe, on a trip to Berlin, not for one moment did I consider going by train, despite also having staff travel; The journey from Glasgow would have taken all day, whereas the flight took two hours. Having through trains between Glasgow and say, Brussels, would have made no difference to my travel choice. 

 

Having said that, I hope Eurostar survives, and if the airlines are being given Government support the same must apply to the railway. 

 

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Sorry, this topic is nothing to do with the Channel Tunnel, (except that Eurostar use it for part of their route), which is an entirely different thing.

 

 

.

 

 That being the case - No UK money. Not a penny.

 

Brit15

[Zomboid]

The company might be foreign owned, but its services link the UK with Paris, Lille and Brussels, and therefore benefits the UK (as well as France and Belgium). Not to mention it employs a lot of British people at St Pancras, Temple Mills, Ebbsfleet, Ashford...

 

Whether that is worth supporting is the question, rather than who owns the company.

[Siberian Snooper]

I don't want Eurostar to go bust, at least not yet, they owe me a weekend in Antwerp and there's no way I would fly to Belgium or France for that matter, I prefer to let the train take the strain. Rail is a lot more civilised than flying,

 

 

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

 That being the case - No UK money. Not a penny.

 

Brit15

Based on your logic 50% or more of the UK rail network would cease to exist as the operators are foreign owned.

Lets throw a large UK workforce on the scrap heap

That should go down well.

 

 

[APOLLO]

20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Based on your logic 50% or more of the UK rail network would cease to exist as the operators are foreign owned.

Lets throw a large UK workforce on the scrap heap

That should go down well.

 

 

 

I thought all operators / franchise holders had been effectively nationalised last year ?

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2aae48b6-6cde-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

 

Anyway, best not to stray into politics.

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

I thought all operators / franchise holders had been effectively nationalised last year ?

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2aae48b6-6cde-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

 

Anyway, best not to stray into politics.

 

Brit15

I don't think so.

They are being paid to run the trains on a management basis* (apart from Northern & LNER which the Government are operating directly).

*I.E. You run the trains and we will pay you to do so.

Franchise/Concession it is not but it isn't what I would call "Nationalised" as the Government aren't doing the day to day running.

 

BTW The Govt. still owns HS1 but it is held in concession until 2040 by another investment vehicle most of which is based in Toronto (IIRC).

In 2040 HS1 passes back to HMG.

[corneliuslundie]

Yes, even in Wales and Scotland it is private companies which actually run the railways - and most of them throughout England, Scotland and Wales are foreign owned. And the leasing companies for the most part still own the trains. Apart from DB I don't know the nationalities of the owners of the freight companies. All the government actually "owns" (via Network Rail) is the infrastructure and the ability to offer companies the chance to pay to use it. That is not forgetting the two routes where the franchisee failed and are being operating by "operators of last resort" (is that the current term?) which seem as far as I can see to be a consortium of consultancies, industry and government.

But the argument about Channel Tunnel passenger services is really now whether they are useful to the UK or not. Given that governments over the past decades have encouraged low cost airlines that is a difficult question to answer. To my mind environmental issues mean there is no case for air travel where there is a much more energy efficient alternative, but I know that is a minority view.

Jonathan

PS The trip I really enjoyed, many years ago, was by train to the coast, ferry to France, and train to Paris with a superb meal on the train in a proper European style traditional dining car. Slow but so what?

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Low cost airlines have not really featured at all in Eurostar’s primary market up to now, i.e. London & the SE to/from Paris, Brussels.

The low cost airline argument with Eurostar is largely a complete red herring.

London - Amsterdam changes that of course, for that market at least.

The winter ski trains and summer runs to the south of France are so fringe in the big scheme of things, to not really count.

 

 

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[Foulounoux]

So my thoughts

 

This is an opportunity

 

Government can help in a number of ways

 

Airline support attach conditions similar to how the French government have that all flights under X time be switched to rail

 

Eurostar support in exchange for a stake. It has been suggested that the government take sets of trains as collateral and offer them to open access operators on routes other than London Paris Brussels (giving access to those routes would damage Eurostar further). Eg London Cologne/Frankfurt

 

Ok so they will not be competitive on time but might be on price

 

We should use this as a chance to switch mode from air to rail

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Apart from DB I don't know the nationalities of the owners of the freight companies.

 

GB Railfreight is owned by Infra Capital (M&G investment group) (UK)

DRS are part of Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, a UK Government agency.

Colas are owned by Bouyges SA (French)

Freightliner are 95% owned by Genessee & Wyoming (USA)

DC Rail (Devon & Cornwall) is UK

Mendip Rail is UK

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Foulounoux said:

.....Airline support attach conditions similar to how the French government have that all flights under X time be switched to rail....

 

 

Smoke and mirrors, or "Green Wash" if you like.

That French ban on certain domestic flights, excludes flights to and from Paris CDG, Air France's primary hub.  Go figure on that one.

 

 

Ryanair operate (under normal circumstances) 6 domestic flights in France. Non are affected by the ban.

Easyjet operate 37 domestic routes and non of them are affected, as most of them are cross-country, rather than to/from Paris and therefore the equivalent rail journeys exceed the journey time criteria.

 

As for France's commitment to the airlines over rail.....

https://www.euractiv.com/section/aviation/news/france-injects-billions-of-euros-into-favoured-airlines/

 

 

 

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Edited January 24, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[hayfield]

On 21/01/2021 at 22:36, Fat Controller said:

The UK's share was sold to a Canadian teachers' pension fund, as part of the ongoing sale of the family silver.

 

Obviously a wise decision as it looks like the old family silver is now worthless

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Obviously a wise decision as it looks like the old family silver is now worthless

 

It wasn't a Teacher's pension fund, as I pointed out in a previous post, That was HS1.

The UK taxpayer derived zero financial benefit from its shareholding. Selling the shares generated a substantial return for the exchequer.

Would you rather zero income for the taxpayer, or the several hundred million obtained by selling the shareholding?

 

It is only a TOC franchise, for want of a better term.

There is always the possibility that one day, other operators will be able to run services and maybe even compete with Eurostar.

There's nothing to prevent any UK government from holding a stake in one of those other companies, is they were so inclined, or thought it prudent.

 

 

. 

 

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[hayfield]

On 22/01/2021 at 13:42, Derekl said:

Reported in the Guardian today that the French government have agreed to support it and expect a contribution from the UK.

 

Elsewhere it was suggested that Eurostar is more important to the UK that Europe in that its HQ is in the UK and most passengers are British.

 

It has also been suggested, as above, that if airlines with European based traffic are being supported, then Eurostar ought to be as well. Also suggested that there is an analogy with support for UK rail, although I am not sure that it is the same issue.

 

 

I could be wrong but has not the French government not loaned Eurostar money ? I presume the Belgium's have chipped in, however this is a real dilemma. The airline industry we have supported are UK companies and we actually are investing in a future income stream. As it happens we are supporting our own rail franchises which are infact mostly owned by foreign (European) companies.  I guess the question is if we should chip in as you say, what should we expect to receive back in return ?

 

The government cannot support every business in this country, we are building up massive debts already. Eurostar could go into administration, will never go bust as it has a future, I am a user so its in my interests for it to continue, all the shareholders have deep pockets and it will survive. There are far more deserving of our public funds  

[hayfield]

On 22/01/2021 at 19:20, MarkC said:

As things stand, Eurostar is of no real use to most of the UK, I would suggest, basis time and cost compared to flying. The cost of having to get into Central London & then get across the city (unless arriving at KX or St Pancras anyway), & then your Eurostar ticket, is almost always going to exceed low cost airlines, even with all the add-ons. Had the North of London services got started then things may well have been different, but as it is, no. As for times, again it just doesn't stack up.

 

I doubt there will be much support for Eurostar outside of the M25, as the saying goes, (and SE England, I should add), particularly as we have no stake in it.

 

I do find it amusing, though, that many folk elsewhere on social media seem to think that Eurostar, Eurotunnel and Le Shuttle are the same outfit...

 

Mark

 

I sometimes use Eurostar for my holidays, certainly with the groups I have travelled with come from all parts south/east/west & north. But as said by many Eurostar is a train operating company, if it fails someone will want the franchise !!  However the French will never allow this. Why should we support a failing company owned by the French government !!

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

....Why should we support a failing company owned by the French government !!

 

See the link in my previous post, about the massive support the French government has given and intends to extend to the French airlines.

 

The UK government is only providing the same support to UK based airlines, that it offers to any other businesses.

The specific aid package announced just over a week ago, is for UK airports, not airlines.

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

23 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I entirely disagree with you.

The government should have no involvement in a commercial business such as Eurostar, which is not a public service and doesn’t provide for any social transport need.

 

 

If its so disastrous why do several other European Governments still hold controlling stakes in what are obstinately ' private' companies?

 

DB, EDF, etc have all had success in overseas investments - DB themselves said they made a decent return on their involvement in Franchising that benefited the German Government and German rail users not the British. Governmental involvement in a French dairy company was also the main reason a hostile takeover from the American food giant didn't happen - in contrast to the UK where Cadbury was bought, then effectively ransacked with the new owners rapidly shutting down production sites.

 

It is a British myth that the best returns are achieved by selling things off - you can only do that trick once where as over the long term, a successful company will pay back in dividends a far grater amount to the Treasury. The ONLY people guaranteed to benefit by such sell offs are city investors and the big accounting firms who handle the sale - not the ordinary people.

 

In an age where climate change threatens the planet and clear need to limit air travel where possible, Eurostar is a service which should be nurtured and can produce significant returns for its owners. Selling it all off thus represented a fixation on the short term.

 

 

[jcm@gwr]

5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

If its so disastrous why do several other European Governments still hold controlling stakes in what are obstinately ' private' companies?

 

DB, EDF, etc have all had success in overseas investments - DB themselves said they made a decent return on their involvement in Franchising that benefited the German Government and German rail users not the British. Governmental involvement in a French dairy company was also the main reason a hostile takeover from the American food giant didn't happen - in contrast to the UK where Cadbury was bought, then effectively ransacked with the new owners rapidly shutting down production sites.

 

It is a British myth that the best returns are achieved by selling things off - you can only do that trick once where as over the long term, a successful company will pay back in dividends a far grater amount to the Treasury. The ONLY people guaranteed to benefit by such sell offs are city investors and the big accounting firms who handle the sale - not the ordinary people.

 

In an age where climate change threatens the planet and clear need to limit air travel where possible, Eurostar is a service which should be nurtured and can produce significant returns for its owners. Selling it all off thus represented a fixation on the short term.

 

 

 

Firstly, the main reason we don't see successful enterprises in the UK is normally government interference and red tape!

Second point, the ONLY people to benefit from such sell off are the friends and family of the

ministers who organise them, unfortunately!

[SED Freightman]

I do not think Eurostar should receive any UK taxpayer funding beyond any furlough payments that may be being made to their UK based staff.  If the company does enter administration, and I wonder if in particular the French Government via SNCF would actually allow that to happen, I am sure that once there is the prospect of passenger traffic resuming another operator will appear, possibly providing an opening for DB.  It would be interesting to know just what assets Eurostar actually have in the UK other than their employees, is Temple Mills Depot leased and are the trains leased as per most UK passenger rolling stock.  What has happened to the former staff from Ashford and Ebbsfleet since Eurostar announced they would remain closed until at least 2022 ?