Eurostar seeking financial aid

[hayfield]

49 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

 

Yes, I remember working that service (Newcastle / Finsbury Park / return)

There was generally more staff than passengers on it!

 

But if it linked to the Continent perhaps there would be more

[Clearwater]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

But if it linked to the Continent perhaps there would be more

Id be amazed if it were enough to make a service commercially viable.  If not commercially viable, it would need a subsidy and is the benefit greater than the cost?  Transport planners/modellers have looked extensively at when ‘ where passengers opt for rail over air.  If the train journey is 4h+ and the flight sub 2h, then the flight takes the vast majority of the mode split.  Sure a few people prefer train but most favour the faster overall journey time by air.  The only way I see that changing is if the air option is made massively more expensive by some form of taxation.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

 

Clearly after the tunnel there is a route south which the Ski train uses, I would imagine if there was an interchange between the tunnel and Paris travelers could easily change trains for their favoured destinations or add a few more trains which  go in the Lyon direction and have a second terminus 

The 'Ski Train' used different routes because it was virtually the only train using the LGV overnight, and had to be fitted around engineer's blockades. Sometimes, it used 'Classic' lines, which would cause problems for the 2nd generation stock, which hasn't got a 1500V capability. 

For the Lyon traffic, there used to be good connections at Lille. On several occasions, I used E* Ashford- Lille, changing there for a Lyon train, and arriving in Lyon in time for a late lunch. Sadly, there have been no Ashford services for some time

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

But if it linked to the Continent perhaps there would be more

 

But it did ! It ran direct into Waterloo for a simple connection with Eurostar. 

 

 

[Pandora]

10 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

It's a curious idea that Eurostar has no competitors; there are the ferries (either carrying people in their own cars, or on coaches) and the airlines, with a high degree of switching between modes depending on convenience, price and availability. I would suggest that there is probably not a large enough market to support two rail operators.

Eurostar may have competition from  airlines and ferries, but for rail travel it has a monopoly.

Any experts on the forum with knowledge of EU business  monopoly and competition laws and regulations? If Eurostar  folds after 30 years of existence, and is replaced by a new company, will that new company attract the attention of Brussels who may see the much expanded business in terms of passengers numbers users compared to the formative years,

, as a monopoly for rail travel and  take certain anti-monopoly measures?      

Edited February 6, 2021 by Pandora

[Clearwater]

8 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Eurostar may have competition from  airlines and ferries, but for rail travel it has a monopoly.

Any experts on the forum with knowledge of EU business  monopoly and competition laws and regulations? If Eurostar  folds after 30 years of existence, and is replaced by a new company, will that new company attract the attention of Brussels who may see the much expanded business in terms of passengers numbers users compared to the formative years,

, as a monopoly for rail travel and  take certain anti-monopoly measures?      

I doubt it.  Any competition authority will look at the market for travel between London, Paris and Brussels and consider all modes, not just rail.  There is plenty of precedent about how competition authorities analyse situations.  They may take a slightly different view when the transaction is buying a company out of receivership - ie in this situation, they may be more relaxed about an airline buying the route than they would be if both were profitable, trading entities.

[Zomboid]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

I would imagine if there was an interchange between the tunnel and Paris

Isn't that Lille? You can get a train from there to Lyon, Marseille and most of the French LGV network via the LGV Interconnexion Est. Not to mention the onward connections to Germany and the Netherlands via the Brussels line.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Zomboid

[hmrspaul]

21 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Yes, I remember working that service (Newcastle / Finsbury Park / return)

There was generally more staff than passengers on it!

Because it was useless. It took us much less time from York to simply go to KX and two undergrounds to Waterloo. But the move to St. P was heaven sent! 4 hours 20 minutes from departure in Brussels to home (yes, needed Grand Central to overtake the earlier East Coast service at Doncaster). No aircraft could do that Well OK a helicopter from central Brussels and a private plane but still had to get from the airport wherever that was to York.

 

The move to St. P was very important for opening up a lot greater catchment for Eurostar services. 

 

Paul

 

 

[hmrspaul]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

Because it was useless. It took us much less time from York to simply go to KX and two undergrounds to Waterloo. But the move to St. P was heaven sent! 4 hours 20 minutes from departure in Brussels to home (yes, needed Grand Central to overtake the earlier East Coast service at Doncaster). No aircraft could do that Well OK a helicopter from central Brussels and a private plane but still had to get from the airport wherever that was to York.

 

The move to St. P was very important for opening up a lot greater catchment for Eurostar services. 

 

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

And Lille was a very useful interchange, we did a trip from Avignon with an easy change at Lille. 

 

Paul

 

 

 

[APOLLO]

UK ministers have rejected French calls for support for the Eurostar after Paris begged their British counterparts to help bail out the international train operator.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1394529/eu-news-eurostar-france-news-emmanuel-macron-grant-shapps

 

Brit15

[hayfield]

"The company, which is owned by private French shareholders said numbers had suffered significantly due to businesses struggling to understand new complex export rules. 

A spokesperson said the issue of bureaucracy will continue to hamper demand from hauliers.

They added: “We need to see an improvement in the readiness of traders."

 

Would it be that the French shareholders are now complaining about the EU's bureaucracy is reducing numbers of UK hauliers ? Perhaps there is a price to be paid for the UK's financial support ?

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

"The company, which is owned by private French shareholders said numbers had suffered significantly due to businesses struggling to understand new complex export rules. 

A spokesperson said the issue of bureaucracy will continue to hamper demand from hauliers.

They added: “We need to see an improvement in the readiness of traders."

 

Would it be that the French shareholders are now complaining about the EU's bureaucracy is reducing numbers of UK hauliers ? Perhaps there is a price to be paid for the UK's financial support ?

You appear to have conflated two separate sets of comments, concerning two quite different companies - one responsible for the pedestrian carrying Eurostar services and the other Getlink for the road vehicle carrying cross channel tunnel traffic. 

 

Paul

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

You appear to have conflated two separate sets of comments, concerning two quite different companies - one responsible for the pedestrian carrying Eurostar services and the other Getlink for the road vehicle carrying cross channel tunnel traffic. 

 

Paul

 

Paul

 

I think all 3 lines relate to Getlink, but I was following the link noting there may well be more to the "not supporting Eurostar" other than just because its foreign owned. There may well be a much bigger picture surrounding this story.

[Pandora]

Eurostar is not a great success story for patronage, predictions for passenger numbers were 21 million  annually by 2007 , that figure was about 300%  of the actuality. The 11 million passengers annually or so prior to lockdown may have been the threshold of saturation for demand.

The newspapers are reporting a respite for Eurostar,  debts and loans being  rescheduled,   financial " kicking the can further down the road" arrangements.

It is quite convenient (possibly disengenuous) for France to make financial demands to us and position the  UK as  a scapegoat when Eurostar eventually fails.

I've heard some hard  anti-Uk sentiments  expressed by Eu staff of  a Brussels office in the past, long before Brexit, sentiments such as " bad Europeans" , ( low electoral turnout in EU elections), will not join in" , (opt out of the  Euro) " will not pay our dues" , ( the rebate) . . It will not lower our reputation  if we do not offer French  Eurostar a British life-raft. 

 

[hayfield]

Pandora

 

The Eurostar project has really failed to live up to expectations, when infact it could have been a massive positive for both business and leisure travel. Until recently unless you want to go to Paris or Brussels (understand Amstand now has a service) as a traveller you are badly served

 

We try and use it for our European holidays, the stumbling block is the interchange in Paris, firstly Garde do Nord is an awful forward transit hub. Once you leave Paris the rail network is very well joined up, but moving around Paris for a tourist traveler is awful.

 

Secondly is the Number of departures per hour for mainline Europe, mostly full up at popular times.

 

I don't know the capacity of the tunnel with both Eurostar and Eurotunnel but it is so limited with few movements per hour

 

[Fat Controller]

37 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Pandora

 

The Eurostar project has really failed to live up to expectations, when infact it could have been a massive positive for both business and leisure travel. Until recently unless you want to go to Paris or Brussels (understand Amstand now has a service) as a traveller you are badly served

 

We try and use it for our European holidays, the stumbling block is the interchange in Paris, firstly Garde do Nord is an awful forward transit hub. Once you leave Paris the rail network is very well joined up, but moving around Paris for a tourist traveler is awful.

 

Secondly is the Number of departures per hour for mainline Europe, mostly full up at popular times.

 

I don't know the capacity of the tunnel with both Eurostar and Eurotunnel but it is so limited with few movements per hour

 

Tunnel capacity is 18 trains per hour per direction, Eurostar taking three paths for two of their trains. There used to be connections from Brussels trains at Lille for Lyon and S E France, and for Bordeaux. These seemed to disappear a few years back.

[adb968008]

I like what Eurostar stands for, but not the onboard service / customer care side.

if Eurostar folds, the concept wont, another company will step into its shoes and resume operations... Thats a natural part of life.

 

As for monopoly / competition.. look what happened when HS1 opened... flyBMI dissapeared, cheap Brussels and Paris flights with it... then the rail fares jacked up hugely.

Then there was the interesting situation of DB’s Siemans ICE suddenly arriving in St Pancras.. which as soon as Eurostar bought Siemans..the DB service was strangely was forgotten about, as was Eurostars expansion to Germany, which was why they were bought.

 

Eurostars always been a bit of a over promise under deliver.. theres still a shed in Manchester funded hy northern taxpayers, for those NoL sets that spent most of their time working domestic routes in France.

I dont care who owns it, as long as the right people are paying for it.

imho change is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I don't know the capacity of the tunnel with both Eurostar and Eurotunnel but it is so limited with few movements per hour

 

 

12 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Tunnel capacity is 18 trains per hour per direction, Eurostar taking three paths for two of their trains. There used to be connections from Brussels trains at Lille for Lyon and S E France, and for Bordeaux. These seemed to disappear a few years back.

 

Strangely the  biggest capacity issue (pre Covid) was NOT the tunnel or the UK side - but the simple fact that the TGV nord between Paris and Lillie was rammed!

 

Because of the enlightened Schengen agreement in place between most EU states, international rail travel between France & Belgium / Netherlands really soared and rapidly (far exceeding Eurostar passenger numbers) consumed all space available on the LGV nord.

 

Therefore Eurostars French offering was mostly limited to 1TPH to / from Paris.

 

As for connections at Lille, its quite possible that providing connections for Lyon etc off Eurostar was not worth it in terms of the business gained compared to the business lost by not being able to fully optimise LGV nord and Lille platform usage

 

The second biggest constraint was indeed the tunnel - because of differing speed profiles, a single Eurostar occupies 1.5 shuttle paths - and quite obviously Euro tunnel don't like that as it reduces the service levels it can provide. As such Eurostars must be sent through in pairs one behind the other so that only 3 shuttle paths are lost.

 

The final capacity constraint is the ability of St Pancras to process incoming passengers. Even before we left the EU, the UK not being a part of Schengen meant lots of border facilities were needed to process incoming travellers and that limits the number of arrivals so said facilities don't get overrun. Unfortunately because of the way St Pancras had to be constructed these border facilities are smaller and laid out in a worse fashion than at Waterloo and so the number of trains which can be handled is actually less despite St Pancras having more platforms.

 

. The biggest reason for the growth of international rail travel within Europe over recent decades is precisely because its treated no differently from internal ones. If going over to France was as easy as going from London to Edinburgh you would get significantly more business being generated as well as reduced operating costs and logistical problems the current strict border regime demands.

 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

Why do you have to bring politics into this? its not allowed, great and informative points until you went off on a political rant

 

Because its the truth*!

 

If you are an infrastructure owner (e.g. SNCF or indeed Eurotunnel) why on earth would you go and waste scarce paths on a enhanced Eurostar service that is not going to deliver significant passenger, environmental or plain cash because of UK laws.

 

As an example of this lets consider HS2 in the UK - it has a maximum capacity of 18TPH, and one the biggest reasons the links to HS1 and to Heathrow got dropped was precisely because every train sent to Heathrow / HS1 removed one domestic path to central London. Consequently those links actually reduced the value for money stakes of the whole HS2 project rather than enhancing it (which is why they got ditched).

 

In France the situation is different - international services are treated more or less the same as domestic services - none of this ban on mixing international and domestic passengers (thus avoiding the need for half empty dedicated 'international' services) and no requirement for incoming passengers to be 'processed' by border force personnel in dedicated facilities on before they be step foot in the country.

 

The capacity for most TGV lines is going to be similar to HS2 - around 16TPH IIRC. So if you are SNCF and you can either run a half filled Eurostar or a full double TGV from Belgium / Lille to Paris which do you think you are going to do?

 

Now ask yourself what if the UK had a more enlightened approach to international train travel like France / Belgium / Netherlands / Germany / etc

 

In such a situation a Birmingham to Paris service becomes a whole lot more viable as you are not taking away a path to or from London for domestic passengers while if said train also called at Ashford you could even potentially pick up some Kent to West Midlands custom too. Then there is the possibility of a Heathrow - Paris service with London Passengers joining it at Stratford and Domestic passengers from Heathrow to Ashford helping boost the viability of the service.

 

Such potential benefits mean that a HS2 to HS1 link suddenly becomes a lot more viable and less of a milestone around HS2s neck.

 

Granted a political change that facilitated the UK re-joining the EU and being part of the Schengen agreement wouldn't in itself magically make the above services immensely profitable overnight. It might well turn out that even with taking into account environmental benefits of modal shift from car / plane to train there still wouldn't be enough travellers to make it viable -  but at least the laws and rules would make it an option to be considered, something todays rules and laws actively prevent.

 

-------------------------------------

 

*Eurostar will continue to be hobnailed in its potential to grow passenger numbers beyond a certain level until the UK opts to join a Schengen style agreement which removes everything other than basic security checks (i.e. to prevent some terrorist bringing a bomb on board) and thus is allowed to behave in much the same way as a domestic train service.

 

It is a matter of historical fact (which you can easily prove yourself if you spend a week at the British library objectively looking at archived newspapers) that any analysis of the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, The Daily Telegraphs output over the past three decades will show a bias to being hostile to moves designed to facilitate grater freedom of movement in Europe. Similar objective analysis will also show that of large sections of the Conservative party not to mention the likes of UKIP have spent considerable time and effort whipping up hysteria and demanding we remove ourselves from 'Europe' and have 'Strong borders' deliberately designed to prevent people getting in unless they have large amounts of cash to deposit.

 

By contrast centralist political parties and moderate left wing political parties have generally been more in favour of 'moves to dismantle borders in Europe' though I do concede that what might be called hard left organisations like the RMT trade Union or the Morning Star newspaper take the same hostile view as those on the right albut for very different reasons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

On 05/05/2021 at 11:08, adb968008 said:

Then there was the interesting situation of DB’s Siemans ICE suddenly arriving in St Pancras.. which as soon as Eurostar bought Siemans..the DB service was strangely was forgotten about, as was Eurostars expansion to Germany, which was why they were bought.

 

 

DB forgot about the service because the more they looked at it the more the rules imposed by the British regarding international rail travellers and the Channel Tunnel safety body made the thing unworkable! The same was true once Eurostar looked at it themselves

 

In the case of the Channel tunnel itself, the need for the trains to be extremely long so as to always be adjacent top a cross passage if they came to a stand in the tunnel and needed to be evacuated. That meant that  the concept of regular length Siemens sets starting in different places then coupling up at Brussels was always going to be a big problem and a deal breaker unless the inter-governmental safety commission could be persuaded to alter the minimum train length rule - there simply wasn't demand for one supper long train all the way from Germany to London

 

In the case of British International Rail Travellers Rules, the requirement that all persons boarding the service undergo full passport checks by British border force personnel in a secure environment at their joining station (something the British Government refused to countenance citing the additional expense and complexity of running yet more remote Border Facilities) - or be turfed off the train in Brussels / Lille so as to allow those checks to be undertaken (greatly increasing journey times) meant the train simply couldn't compete with air.

Edited May 6, 2021 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

On 05/05/2021 at 18:39, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

The capacity for most TGV lines is going to be similar to HS2 - around 16TPH IIRC. So if you are SNCF and you can either run a half filled Eurostar or a full double TGV from Belgium / Lille to Paris which do you think you are going to do?

 

In such a situation a Birmingham to Paris service becomes a whole lot more viable as you are not taking away a path to or from London for domestic passengers while if said train also called at Ashford you could even potentially pick up some Kent to West Midlands custom too. Then there is the possibility of a Heathrow - Paris service with London Passengers joining it at Stratford and Domestic passengers from Heathrow to Ashford helping boost the viability of the service.

 

 

The problem with Birmingham to Paris, is not many people want to go from Paris to Birmingham. Same is true for Paris to Penzance, Brussels to Glasgow etc.. the traffic is all one origin not bi-directional.

 

Paris to Brussels to Amsterdam connects capital cities... traffic travels in volume between each.

Thats why there isnt much of a demand for a Rennes to Rotterdam service either.

 

Passports have nowt to do with it... Londons geography puts it at an economically viable dead end for international services into this country.

People from Paris I really doubt are as attracted to Hartlepool as those from Hartlepool are to Paris.
 

 

On 05/05/2021 at 18:55, phil-b259 said:

 

DB forgot about the service because the more they looked at it the more the rules imposed by the British regarding international rail travellers and the Channel Tunnel safety body made the thing unworkable! The same was true once Eurostar looked at it themselves

 

In the case of the Channel tunnel itself, the need for the trains to be extremely long so as to always be adjacent top a cross passage if they came to a stand in the tunnel and needed to be evacuated. That meant that  the concept of regular length Siemens sets starting in different places then coupling up at Brussels was always going to be a big problem and a deal breaker unless the inter-governmental safety commission could be persuaded to alter the minimum train length rule - yet there simply wasn't demand for one supper long train all the way from Germany to London

Both Eurostar 374 and DB class 407 are Siemans Velaro-D design.

It was designed to meet tunnel spec, and DB were approved to operate.

Alstom legally tested that aspect in relation to the tender and lost, twice. Could you imagine Alstoms response of the 407 wasnt allowed where as the 374 was... It leaves me head-scratching the next point why didn't DB bother to certify it in Belgium.. but getting certification for the DB 407 in the tunnel was certainly helpful to Siemens in this regard.

 

 

 

Eurostar does operate through service to Amsterdam, without de boarding everyone in Brussels or Lille... it is possible.

 

The Germans imho were never really coming, they never got the Valero D certified in France via Belgium even though with 374 already running it should have been easy... you would have thought its value to Paris, using your argument would have been quite strong, but think the issues were more to do with political resistance, industrial relationships.. huge borders do exist in Europe.. they are just invisible to the passenger, and the back scratching is away from the media.

 

John Betjemen seems to have been looking the right way all along.

 

 

It might have a british flag, but this border guard has spotted the trojan horse...

 

 

 

If only...

 

Eurostar didn't need to buy the Velaro-D.

Class 373’s were mid-life, some items of rolling stock were brand new still unused, (Was the NRM power car ever used since new ?)

could its finances have been better if it had not ?

 

A lot of British money has been lost into that black hole.. mk 5’s in Canada, 92’s in Eastern Europe and Class 373’s for domestic French use.. yet we don't seem to own any of it.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if some day Eurostar is little more than a Lille-London connecting shuttle, with a few Paris non-stops.

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[lmsforever]

The thread is an interesting one with many interesting points of view but lets face it Euro Star is nothing to do with GB its the French who should bail it out. The French are at the moment making threats to us on wide range of subjects mainly because they are in deep doo with their polotics and economy so we are on the recieving end of many threats.Travelers to europe are going back to flying  and will keep doing so  also planes avoid France a big plus!

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

In the case of British International Rail Travellers Rules, the requirement that all persons boarding the service undergo full passport checks by British border force personnel in a secure environment at their joining station (something the British Government refused to countenance citing the additional expense and complexity of running yet more remote Border Facilities) - or be turfed off the train in Brussels / Lille so as to allow those checks to be undertaken (greatly increasing journey times) meant the train simply couldn't compete with air.

 

As adb968008 says, Eurostar cannot compete with air for many, many journeys due simply to the geography of the UK; For example, my most recent Euro trip (from Scotland) was to Berlin, a two hour flight from Glasgow Airport, but an entire day by rail. Despite having rail staff privilege travel going by train was never a serious option. 

 

 

[hayfield]

39 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

As adb968008 says, Eurostar cannot compete with air for many, many journeys due simply to the geography of the UK; For example, my most recent Euro trip (from Scotland) was to Berlin, a two hour flight from Glasgow Airport, but an entire day by rail. Despite having rail staff privilege travel going by train was never a serious option. 

 

 

 

 

Why do we need Eurostar going to most major cities in the UK? What is needed is most cities in the UK to be able to feed into (or from if traveling from Europe) Eurostar, Eurostar could then cross the channel and feed into the European network. In hindsight would it not have been better having international hubs either side of the channel which fed into the appropriate rail networks. Rather than a service which is basically London to Paris

 

Had it been thought through properly it could easily complete with airports on the access side, as for subsidies there would have to be a level playing field

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

What is needed is most cities in the UK to be able to feed into (or from if traveling from Europe) Eurostar, Eurostar could then cross the channel and feed into the European network. In hindsight would it not have been better having international hubs either side of the channel which fed into the appropriate rail networks.

We do, its called St Pancras International, conveniently sandwiched in-between the ECML and WCML and with its own MML feed, and served with a near every 30 second Thameslink service to Kent, Brighton. St Pancras is very well placed.

 

I think until recently through ticketing options were still available.

 

Where I think the project fail is, is HS2 should go under and straight through London, terminating out the other side onto classic rail destinations in Anglia or Kent.. no need for The Palace of Euston or the Desert of Old Oak, thus allows options on North/West to East /South direct routes without connections... much like Thameslink today, and in keeping with modern thinking in cities like Berlin, Amsterdam, Antwerp.

 

Belgium used to offer through ticketing to any Belgian destination on SNCB which was very nice, but that incentive ended when competition from airlines ceased, allowing prices to rise. Connecting in France, with luggage and kids is ill advised.

 

But be careful what you wish for, I do think that the invisible wall of Europe will economically separate us, and think Lille will become the Euro immigration hub for UK passengers, with passengers diverted to onwards continental connections at some point, with a few token services to Paris.

Edited May 6, 2021 by adb968008