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Eurostar seeking financial aid


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39 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

No it isn't

 

You are obviously clueless of the details of how the Schengen Treaty works (routine border checks between participating states are BANNED!)

 

The juxtaposed border controls in the UK & France may be better for the traveller than being processed separately at either end of the journey but its a FACT that you still have to be processed in the first place - unlike within the CTA or within the Schengen zone where folk are at total freedom to wander across borders at will

 

That processing adds cost as well as restricting the way travel options can be offered by providers however you try and dress it up. The desire to travel drops away sharply if the perceived (note the deliberate use of that word) hassle becomes grater than the end reward.

 

So you can make 'accessing' the terminals as easy as you like that that aim (as laudable as it is) does NOTHING to alter the fundamental FACT that the need to gather all travellers in one place and spend time 'processing them through border controls' (and now customs thanks to Brexit) is a massive drag on the ability of transport providers to extend the reach of services beyond said hubs.

 

As a UK citizen you may well believe that a 'tough' approach to the UK border controls (as campaigned for by certain sections of the press and political groupings) is what the UK needs - but have the guts to admit your stance is a POLITICAL decision and not one supported by a factual analysis of what joining the Schengen agreement (i.e. extending the CTA already in place with Ireland) would do with respect to opening up options / possibilities for businesses to innovate and expand of international rail travel to / from the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly you are the one bringing politics into this thread, we are in a unique position being the largest island off the mainland.

 

Secondly you should get your facts checked first. Everytime I have crossed from France to Italy (last time 2019) every passenger on the train had their ID checked (passports in our case) Fact !!

 

Stop peddling your political viewpoints and keep it to the topic in hand

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Phil, it might be best if you kept your incoherent, extremist, political rantings off the forum.

Politics are not supposed to be allowed.

 

The desire to have safeguards in place to have a greater, or lesser degree of border control, for whatever purpose (prevention of illegal entry, for example) is commonplace practice and a valid process around the world.

Those controls are no way the exclusive province of “far right” ideology or populist viewpoints.

The Schengen area is itself contained within external border controls.

 

Do you think you can just pitch up in say, Canada, Australia, USA or wherever and just walk in?

Do you think an Indian or Brazilian can just walk straight into France, Germany or Italy (all in the EU Schengen area), without any checks?

Do you think countries like NZ and Canada, which have “liberal” governments, don’t have strict entry requirements?

 

Please just stop posting this rubbish.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

That practice is ILLEGAL under the Schengen agreement outside of 'National Emergencies' and the EU gas been heavily critical / threatened legal action where countries have continued to implement such practices for months on end (the Treaty allows a maximum of 6 months IIRC)

 

A lot of such checks were imposed as a result of the Migrant crisis of 2015 and there has been an obvious reluctance to withdraw them by some states - mostly due to worries over the political ramifications at the ballot box from nationalistic / far right entities.

 

As you note this introduces delays in cross border train services and although being checked on board is better for travellers than being marched off to a processing facility and less disruptive business wise than the 'international only' passenger rule the UK remains wedded to, it still has the potential to dissuade passengers from travelling, hitting revenues, profitability and ultimately the viability of the service.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell that to the Italians !!  Its no great problem anyway the officials are very polite and its hardly an inconvenience, as we are usually going through a very long tunnel it breaks up the boredom. As a guest of their country I am more than happy to comply, anything to disrupt criminal activity I am happy to assist. The first time I encountered these checks was well before 2015 plus the migrants want to leave italy for western Europe.

 

The delays are at maximum a few mins and no inconvenience what so ever, only those with something to hide or have a bad attitude have anything to fear. If anything its reassuring rather than an inconvenience, same as having your ticket checked !!  

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On a lighter note, it would be fun if Wales ever got independence since there are a few villages where the border runs down the middle of the main street. Are there such places in Europe too? And between Kosova and Montenegro there is a sort of no-man's land which appears to be in neither country (there is about 1 km between the two border posts) but plenty of people live in that area.

Jonathan

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44 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

On a lighter note, it would be fun if Wales ever got independence since there are a few villages where the border runs down the middle of the main street. Are there such places in Europe too? And between Kosova and Montenegro there is a sort of no-man's land which appears to be in neither country (there is about 1 km between the two border posts) but plenty of people live in that area.

Jonathan

This chap knows:

 

 

 

 

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Let's not sling mud over politics... It is a bit of a political subject, but the way the UK chooses to operate its borders means that international rail travel requires a lot of special infrastructure at any station where the trains call. Combine that with the uncompetitive journey times from anywhere beyond HS1 (or indeed beyond Paris/ Brussels) and the economics collapse quicker than an England batting line up.

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50 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Let's not sling mud over politics... It is a bit of a political subject, but the way the UK chooses to operate its borders means that international rail travel requires a lot of special infrastructure at any station where the trains call. Combine that with the uncompetitive journey times from anywhere beyond HS1 (or indeed beyond Paris/ Brussels) and the economics collapse quicker than an England batting line up.

 

What is uncompetitive about deciding not to endure a rather stressful time and a totally environmentally damaging journey and leisurely, pleasing and using an environmentally sound method of transport, plus you only have to show your passport once not twice on a journey, unless that is if you travel to Italy via Chambery ? Certainly in the classes I can afford you cannot stratch your legs to get a coffee or a glass of wine. Oe even splash out and dine in the Blue Train restaurant

 

On a serious note the border issue is a complete red herring, It should be a matter of being able to easily to use an environmentally friendly way of going on holiday and or attending business meetings. Let the train take the strain

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1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

On a lighter note, it would be fun if Wales ever got independence since there are a few villages where the border runs down the middle of the main street. Are there such places in Europe too? And between Kosova and Montenegro there is a sort of no-man's land which appears to be in neither country (there is about 1 km between the two border posts) but plenty of people live in that area.

Jonathan

After the disintegration of Yugoslavia, wan't there one of the countries that was left without access to the sea? Was this an attempt to provide one?

 

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2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

What is uncompetitive about deciding not to endure a rather stressful time 

Most people do not make that choice. St Pancras to Gare du Nord is 2h15 apparently, so if you add on the WCML from Birmingham (call it 80 mins, which is apparently the fastest journey time at present from New St to Euston) and allow an hour to deal with immigration at this hypothetical Birmingham terminal, then you've taken 4h35 to get from New Street to Gare du Nord. That's without considering that the journey probably doesn't actually start at New Street or end at Gare du Nord. The threshold for significant numbers of people switching from flying to the train is reputedly 4 hours, so it's unlikely to be particularly attractive to most potential customers.

 

I would generally rather take the train, but the fact is that it's only competitive on journey time up to a certain distance, and most of the UK is beyond that threshold from the likes of Paris and Brussels.

 

That's without considering that flying is often cheaper, too.

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10 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Most people do not make that choice. St Pancras to Gare du Nord is 2h15 apparently, so if you add on the WCML from Birmingham (call it 80 mins, which is apparently the fastest journey time at present from New St to Euston) and allow an hour to deal with immigration at this hypothetical Birmingham terminal, then you've taken 4h35 to get from New Street to Gare du Nord. That's without considering that the journey probably doesn't actually start at New Street or end at Gare du Nord. The threshold for significant numbers of people switching from flying to the train is reputedly 4 hours, so it's unlikely to be particularly attractive to most potential customers.

 

I would generally rather take the train, but the fact is that it's only competitive on journey time up to a certain distance, and most of the UK is beyond that threshold from the likes of Paris and Brussels.

 

That's without considering that flying is often cheaper, too.

More like always in my experience.

Last October we were going to visit relatives in Germany and decided not to fly due to covid. The train was around 3 times the price of our usual airline. In the end we called it off at the last minute due to complications and are still waiting to try again. Berlin is way too far and Cologne I reckon would be about the limit and that is stretching the figures that you quote. Now, Eurostar from Milton Keynes might make a difference. I did see a test train there at one time, but due to reasons mentioned earlier the service never got underway.

Bernard

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30 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Most people do not make that choice. St Pancras to Gare du Nord is 2h15 apparently, so if you add on the WCML from Birmingham (call it 80 mins, which is apparently the fastest journey time at present from New St to Euston) and allow an hour to deal with immigration at this hypothetical Birmingham terminal, then you've taken 4h35 to get from New Street to Gare du Nord. That's without considering that the journey probably doesn't actually start at New Street or end at Gare du Nord. The threshold for significant numbers of people switching from flying to the train is reputedly 4 hours, so it's unlikely to be particularly attractive to most potential customers.

 

I would generally rather take the train, but the fact is that it's only competitive on journey time up to a certain distance, and most of the UK is beyond that threshold from the likes of Paris and Brussels.

 

That's without considering that flying is often cheaper, too.

 

It will never be competitive on journey times or cost, certainly whilst fuel for aircraft pays little of no tax.

 

I have been on several group trips abroad, usually starting the night before staying in a London hotel and having a meal and or show in town (the holidays already started !! Breakfast cooked by someone else and no washing up prior to a leisurely stroll to the station. all part of the holiday experience. The majority of travellers come from the Midlands and the North, those from the midlands like us tend to tack an extra day on the start, those going further north or west add an extra day at the end.

 

Not ideal for the business traveller but I assume international business meetings occur far less these days. Likewise if we are using Eurotunnel with the car for major journeys we stay over night en route rather than have a major dash going and returning home. We think the journey should be as pleasurable as the holiday itself, certainly at our age the extra day either side is neither here or there.

 

We are taking my wife's patents (they are in their 90's) to Cornwall this year, we are seriously considering doing the journey in two hops rather than put them through an 8 hour car ride

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On 06/05/2021 at 17:28, caradoc said:

 

 

 

 

There was at one time an Edinburgh/Waterloo HST, providing a same-station connection with Eurostar. The only problem being, hardly anyone used it ! Nowadays a near-same station interchange is available between Kings X and St Pancras, a same-station interchange within St Pancras, and an interchange involving a short walk between Euston (my normal station of arrival from Scotland) and St Pancras.     However..... I still made the journeys I mentioned by air, and would do so again. 

 

It was hopelessly slow - I never knew anyone that used it. Direct train to KX and the hazardous journey on the Underground was  a great deal quicker, if rather hard work (with luggage laden with documents). 

 

There are a lot of the UK which is a long way from a decent international airport - and clearing through them can be very slow and they don't have such regular flights to Paris and Brussels. From our York office we were in London at the same time as we might be loading at Leeds Bradford Airport, and only just arriving at Manchester airport by road or rail. Coming home we had a requirement to have a typed up report available 24 hours after close of meeting - very difficult to do on an airplane once typing pools closed down - easy using a portable typing device on a train with a good sized table. 

 

Paul

 

 

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16 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

We think the journey should be as pleasurable as the holiday itself

Hear, hear!   During the hiatus that was lockdown I amused and inspired myself by making outline plans for rail journeys that I might make in the future.  I realised that I had barely scratched the surface of what is possible by rail.  Getting to mainline Europe is probably the weakest link given the parlous state of Eurostar right now.  I would love to board a train somewhere in England other than St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford and go right away to France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland etc.  Sadly from that viewpoint, those who rule us have decided that the UK shall have borders and a Borders Agency to look after them, for what are no doubt considered very good reasons.

 

Chris  

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3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

On a lighter note, it would be fun if Wales ever got independence since there are a few villages where the border runs down the middle of the main street. Are there such places in Europe too?

 

I think that was the reason why the Brexit negotiations ran into such difficulties over the Eire/Ulster border.

And if Scotland ever does get independence, there will not doubt be arguments about where Berwick is.

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17 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

It was hopelessly slow - I never knew anyone that used it. Direct train to KX and the hazardous journey on the Underground was  a great deal quicker, if rather hard work (with luggage laden with documents). 

 

Yes indeed.  I often used to pass that arriving at Waterloo when I was commuting to Richmond ( of a journey as my normal service was also to KX - 2 trains and 2 tubes, which meant that one leg or another of the trip always disrupted).  As far as I could see it might as well have been signalled as ECS!   I suspect that anybody on it was probably a railwayman anyway.  It was a wonder that service ran as long as it did, I think it was required to run by some political commitment.

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2 hours ago, hayfield said:

On a serious note the border issue is a complete red herring, It should be a matter of being able to easily to use an environmentally friendly way of going on holiday and or attending business meetings. Let the train take the strain

The great unwashed don't give a toss about green issues, no matter what they might tell an opinion poll.  They just want to get to Ibiza or wherever as cheaply as possible and preferably as quickly as possible.  And that means from wherever they live to wherever the holiday is, not from some city centre or airport to another one. 

 

Business travellers are slightly different.  Their issues are similar but they don't want to sit next to some noisy kid who's going to stuff a toffee apple into their ear or puke over their suit.  Many see the journey itself as a waste of their time and if they see it as less wasted if can do some paperwork/fill in their expenses en route.  

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31 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I think that was the reason why the Brexit negotiations ran into such difficulties over the Eire/Ulster border.

And if Scotland ever does get independence, there will not doubt be arguments about where Berwick is.

That reminds me that Berwick’s defences have been neglected and there is currently no standing garrison!

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Out of curiosity; why are the border checks not carried out on Eurostar (in the style described by Hayfield between France and Italy)? Is it a legislation thing? Sorry if i missed covered over the interesting last few pages!

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1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Out of curiosity; why are the border checks not carried out on Eurostar (in the style described by Hayfield between France and Italy)? Is it a legislation thing? Sorry if i missed covered over the interesting last few pages!

I have no idea how this would work. If we leave St Pancreas and the French inspect passports en route and decide someone is dodgy, where are they thrown off - Gare du Nord?

 

The present system works fine. The train has no thieves and vagabonds on board. But often has armed policemen, just in case.  

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Off topic but to respond to a comment above, yes Kosova has no sea - they all go to Durres or Saranda in Albania for their holidays, or to the coast of Montenegro. But the border crossing I was referring to is several hundred miles inland.

Of course this illustrates one big difference between the UK and European countries. It is always possible to get from one mainland European country if one wishes to simply by walking over the border away from an official crossing. So trying to check everyone in detail is a bit of a waste of time. That is a bit more difficult when there is at least 20 miles of sea (the Irish border excepted).

And back on the England/Wales border, there is a golf course which straddles the border. That caused real fun when the lock down rules were different in the two countries. Imagine if it had been a real border - customs checks to get from one end of a hole to the other.

Anyway, back on topic. Things ain't going to change politically, so Eurostar is not going to be a fantastic success. The question is how to make the best of what is possible.

Jonathan

PS Thanks for those videos about "interesting" borders.

 

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9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

My limited use of trains within mainland Europe has been formality-free. Joining a train in Bruxelles to go to Köln, and vice versa, included nothing about passports, any more than driving from France into Belgium, Luxembourg or Germany ever has. 

 

To reinforce Ian's point, a couple of years ago I had to conduct a friend's funeral in Maastricht, which involved driving from the Midlands through France and Belgium into the Netherlands. The only border checks were before the Eurotunnel crossing in each direction.

 

I can't see why there would be more controls when travelling by train between countries in the Schengen area than by car.

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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The UK Government decided that on-train checks were not acceptable, so they have to be done at stations.

 

The exact grounds for that decision I don't know.

 

There are a number of good reasons not to carry out on-board checks.

As Ian (oldddudders) says, it's too late once the train is on the move.

 

Take a very obvious example.....

 

Why pay people smugglers, what is reported to thousands of ££'s, to risk life and limb, to be put onto a relatively flimsy RIB or other unsuitable small craft, to make the (at best very precarious and at worst, extremely dangerous) crossing of the English Channel, in order to "sneak in" to the UK illegally.

 

No need for that !

Just pay €60, €100, €150 or whatever, for a ticket to board the Eurostar at Gare Du Nord or Brussels Midi, travel safely across the Channel and claim asylum once on UK territory.

Being intercepted by checks onboard would be useless, unless completed prior to the French coast and the train is able to stop at Calais for the "suspect" passenger to be removed from the train, prior to making the crossing.

 

What if a large group had boarded the train and were able to overpower the officials, or any onboard security?

(anyone remember the scenes around Calais, of gangs trying to stop lorries while others were breaking into the back?)

Before you know it, the train would be through the tunnel and game over.

 

At the very least, there would have to be strict "security checks" before boarding, including a check on eligibility to make the journey (passports, Visa's etc,),  so it makes sense to carry out the formal border procedure at the same time.

 

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2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

......Things ain't going to change politically, so Eurostar is not going to be a fantastic success. The question is how to make the best of what is possible.....

 

 

Well, as mentioned earlier in this topic, the plan is for Eurostar to be merged with Thalys, to form a new combined operator.

The merger has been in process for some time and should have been completed later this year, but the pandemic and resulting adverse financial impact on both Eurostar and Thalys, has delayed matters.

 

 

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