Eurostar seeking financial aid

[Zomboid]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Take a very obvious example.....

 

Why pay people smugglers, what is reported to thousands of ££'s, to risk life and limb, to be put onto a relatively flimsy RIB or other unsuitable small craft, to make the (at best very precarious and at worst, extremely dangerous) crossing of the English Channel, in order to "sneak in" to the UK illegally.

That is simply a result of the UK immigration policy being to discourage such people from attempting to come. Let's not get into the rights and wrongs of that, just recognise that it is what it is in the context of international rail travel...

 

A consequence is that lots of infrastructure is needed at international terminals (stations, ports, airports) to manage things, and that has the effect of discouraging anyone trying new international rail routes. If such routes would be sufficiently competitive with air on price and/or time to make the infrastructure worthwhile, then they'd probably have started operating already. Just looking at the map, if there were a high speed line throughout, London to Amsterdam or the Dusseldorf area might just about be able to compete on time, but with Brussels to Antwerp being a classic line for the moment, it's going to be too slow. If demand was there for 8 or so trains per day to Amsterdam, then providing the facilities at Amsterdam (and Schipol) may well make economic sense.

[lmsforever]

Maybe we will become even more europe  sceptic on travel than we are already .its a miority who insist on flying to europe or the sunniest part.The cost of tests are going to put many off traveling and they will find just what the UK has to offer. Just seen on Sky news that a family of four will have to pay  £1ooo plus foe a family of four for tests seems high to me.But we must not pay a penny to eurostar Machron should do that they are not  British 

[hayfield]

The customs checks are a complete red herring. Traveling by plane you are checked twice, before departure and on arrival. With Eurostar its once, on arrival. Plus you don't have to wait then scramble for your luggage. What is needed certainly on the French side or on both sides is the ability to connect with the internal/ international (in France) rail infrastructure easily 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

The customs checks are a complete red herring. Traveling by plane you are checked twice, before departure and on arrival......

Let’s not confuse “customs checks” with “ border control checks”, i.e. “passport control “.

They are completely different things.

 

On departing the UK via an airport.......

1. you do not pass through customs,

2. you normally do not pass through a border control passport check either.

The airline or handling agent will scan your passport, usually at the gate, along with your boarding card (either physical or electronic on your phone). That information is passed electronically to the border agency. It’s used as a record of leaving the country.

Note: Some other countries also have a passport check on departure, to stop anyone that shouldn’t be, from travelling.

Border control passport checks are obviously made on entry (arrival), unless there are pre- clearance arrangements, where the check is done prior to departure, such as with the Channel Tunnel.

 

Customs checks are only carried out on entry (arrival).

Prior to 1st Jan 2021, there was the “Blue channel “ for entry from another EU state, i.e. no customs check required.... which no longer exists.

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 9, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[caradoc]

16 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The UK Government decided that on-train checks were not acceptable, so they have to be done at stations.

 

The exact grounds for that decision I don't know.

 

On-train checks on the face of it do sound sensible, and time saving, and would be straightforward for passport verification, but I'm not sure how luggage could be properly checked and scanned in the same way as at stations ? Plus, if someone wanted to smuggle weapons or explosives onto a train, as mentioned elsewhere an on-train check would be far too late ! 

 

 

[Zomboid]

Good point, if luggage needs to be checked in that manner then that's a mark against on train checks. Though I don't believe it's necessary to x-ray bags for the much more numerous shuttle services, so whether the luggage checks actually add much real world security is questionable.

[Michael Hodgson]

I've never had the car x-rayed for explosives at Dover.  Would they do that if I ever put it on the train?

 

When my brother was posted from northern Scotland to the Falklands, he was travelling with three of his crew and had to change flights at Heathrow, where they had their bags scanned.  Security got all excited on finding a small knife in his kitbag.  At which point one of the others piped up with ".... and I've got these " opening his own bag which had not been challenged and producing several larger knives and a Very pistol.  All vital parts of the rescue helicopter winchman's kit.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

52 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Good point, if luggage needs to be checked in that manner then that's a mark against on train checks. Though I don't believe it's necessary to x-ray bags for the much more numerous shuttle services, so whether the luggage checks actually add much real world security is questionable.

Eurptunnel coach customers are routinely scanned. With cars and light vans, there are random searches, in conjunction with intelligence-led searches. It was one such search that led to three arrests for money-laundering on Thursday last. Despite having been staff for 25 or more years, it didn't stop me being searched several times, and X-rayed once. I even got tested positive for explosives (the waterproofing on my grape-picking boots showed up as having a similar signature to something less benevolent)

[caradoc]

One reason for passport and security checks for Eurostar passengers must surely be the unique circumstance of running through a 30 mile undersea tunnel ? Brought home, in however an utterly ludicrous way, by the execrable Sky Movie SAS: Red Notice !

 

[MarkC]

4 minutes ago, caradoc said:

One reason for passport and security checks for Eurostar passengers must surely be the unique circumstance of running through a 30 mile undersea tunnel ? Brought home, in however an utterly ludicrous way, by the execrable Sky Movie SAS: Red Notice !

 

It could have been worse - there could have been a helicopter flying through, a la Mission:Impossible... 

[Metr0Land]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've never had the car x-rayed for explosives at Dover.  Would they do that if I ever put it on the train?

 

 

 

I haven't used the Tunnel since 2015.  Before then we used it a couple of times a year.  They didn't x-ray cars but diverted 5 at a time into a side bit and swabbed the steering wheel.  You had to wait a couple of minutes for the test but then all were let go.  I suspect if there was a positive test then each car would be tested again individually.  Doing 5 at a time as a 1st go got more throughput than testing each car individually, given that not many cars are carrying nasties.  I think we were tested twice in a decade.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

One reason for passport and security checks for Eurostar passengers must surely be the unique circumstance of running through a 30 mile undersea tunnel ? Brought home, in however an utterly ludicrous way, by the execrable Sky Movie SAS: Red Notice !

 

Though no such checks are required to use the Seikan tunnel. Obviously you wouldn't need passport checks as that is wholly within Japan, but it is a long undersea rail tunnel, so quite similar in a lot of ways.

 

The perceived risks are no doubt different in Japan though.

[phil-b259]

On 08/05/2021 at 22:02, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Just pay €60, €100, €150 or whatever, for a ticket to board the Eurostar at Gare Du Nord or Brussels Midi, travel safely across the Channel and claim asylum once on UK territory.

Being intercepted by checks onboard would be useless, unless completed prior to the French coast and the train is able to stop at Calais for the "suspect" passenger to be removed from the train, prior to making the crossing.

 

What if a large group had boarded the train and were able to overpower the officials, or any onboard security?

(anyone remember the scenes around Calais, of gangs trying to stop lorries while others were breaking into the back?)

Before you know it, the train would be through the tunnel and game over.

 

At the very least, there would have to be strict "security checks" before boarding, including a check on eligibility to make the journey (passports, Visa's etc,),  so it makes sense to carry out the formal border procedure at the same time.

 

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All of which could easily happen to a international train between France and Germany say! Yet I notice that hasn't meant France or Germany have required 'sealed trains' with boarding only permissible by being processed through fixed installations by border force personnel!

 

Saying 'they can't because of the permeable land border' is only half an answer, because although factually correct it still doesn't address how the authorities on the other side of the border deal with the arrivals which must therefore make it through.

 

This is the nub of the issue - when you don't have a big wide moat round your castle you have to use your brains and cunning to outwit those that would do you harm without unduly compromising yourself.

 

Now you will probably argue that the number of Asylum seekers using international trains or breaking into lorries between France and Germany is tiny compared to the number that would do so between France and the UK - and I wouldn't disagree with that statement. However the fact that it doesn't generally happen between other EU states also doesn't mean its a naturally occurring state of affairs at borders.

 

Addressing the 'pull factors' - including the ease of which people can find work within the black / hidden economy and avoid interaction with the state, not to mention the ease with which the UK immigration bodies can 'lose' people might be a good place to start and far more effective in the long run, though I concede that its a bit hard to do much about the  attraction of speaking English. 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, caradoc said:

One reason for passport and security checks for Eurostar passengers must surely be the unique circumstance of running through a 30 mile undersea tunnel ? Brought home, in however an utterly ludicrous way, by the execrable Sky Movie SAS: Red Notice !

 

 

Security yes, passports no. After all the people who flew planes into the twin towers were all living in the USA perfectly legally.

 

In fact if you go back and look at most terrorist incidents you will find that in 99% of cases the perpetrators had the legal right to be present in the place the incident happened.

 

That said there are plenty of examples of transport infrastructure round the world which could be said to be vulnerable and need extra security yet the countries concerned have not seen the need to go down the Channel Tunnel route, preferring a more intelligence lead / random sampling techniques (as happens with the car ferries at Dover)

 

Speaking of car ferries, your average car ferry across the straights can carry at least twice the number of passengers  as a Eurostar (e.g. Spirt of Britain at 2,000 passengers 180 lorries or 1,059 cars)  - yet as the Herald of Free Enterprise showed if water gets onto the vehicle car deck it can capsize within minutes. A well placed terrorist  bomb that got through because not everybody or everything gets passed through airport style security before boarding....

 

Or how about a gang of terrorists each with a knife decide to start going on a killing spree mid channel. No X-ray screening of every single car passenger who boards at Dover is there.

 

See, when you start to think about, the Channel tunnel is not so unique after all...

Edited May 10, 2021 by phil-b259

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Though no such checks are required to use the Seikan tunnel. Obviously you wouldn't need passport checks as that is wholly within Japan, but it is a long undersea rail tunnel, so quite similar in a lot of ways.

 

The perceived risks are no doubt different in Japan though.

 

Which actually surprises me, given the deadly sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995. A lower risk, probably, but definitely not no risk. 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

24 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Which actually surprises me, given the deadly sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995. A lower risk, probably, but definitely not no risk. 

 

 

Japan has suffered very few terrorist attacks over the last 30 years.

Only 2 in the last 20 years (a bus stabbing and a car ramming pedestrians), which were the work of individual nut-jobs.

They haven't had the level of threat levelled at "the west', particularly Europe, over the same timeframe.

 

Note: Terrorist attacks in mainland Europe are still occurring on a regular basis, particularly in France.

 

As for the risk of attack on mainland European trains; I'm sure most of us will remember the gunman on the Thalys train routing from Amsterdam to Paris, just over 5.5  years ago (2015).

If it hadn't been for some quick thinking American servicemen, who, by some miracle, happened to be sitting in the very same carriage and next to the assailant, there would almost certainly have been carnage.

 

Can such attacks be stopped completely?

Of course not; but the X-channel route would present a very symbolic target if there weren't any precautions in place.

 

 

 

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[lmsforever]

If  Eurostar collapse who would take over the franchise and which country woulod they be from ,is a european group favoured or from elswhere.? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

If  Eurostar collapse who would take over the franchise and which country woulod they be from ,is a european group favoured or from elswhere.? 

 

I would think that's impossible to speculate about at the moment.

As Eurostar was due to be merged with Thalys this year, if Eurostar collapsed, then SNCF (the major shareholder and controlling body for both companies) might want Thalys to take on the role anyway.

 

All hypothetical as reports suggest refinancing of the debt has been agreed.

If the merger is completed as planned, Eurostar might not exist as it currently does, anyway.

We don't yet know what the branding of the new "Green Speed Project " company is going to be.

 

 

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[GoingUnderground]

On 08/05/2021 at 17:56, Satan's Goldfish said:

Out of curiosity; why are the border checks not carried out on Eurostar (in the style described by Hayfield between France and Italy)? Is it a legislation thing? Sorry if i missed covered over the interesting last few pages!

They used to be. I remember having my passport checked on a Ski Train service from Bourg St Maurice, our luggage was scanned at Bourg before we were allowed on to the platform, but there were no UK passport checks at the station.  I think that there were also luggage scanners at Moutiers, but not at Aime La Plagne, in those days, but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

On one ski train return journey from France there was no onboard passport check, and we had to queue at St Pancras to go through UK passport control.

 

However, UK policy changed and unless your journey started at Gare Du Nord or Bruxelles Midi you got turfed out at Lille for the luggage check and UK passport control.

 

The luggage checks may seem extreme, there were none on the alpine rail tunnels between France and Italy and Switzerland and Italy, nor on the Lotschberg tunnel when I last went through them, and I suspect there are none on the new Gotthard route. There's none on any Metro/Underground system that I know of, and there won't be any on Crossrail in London either.

 

But we need to remember that when the Chunnel opened the UK was having severe problems with the IRA and closing the Chunnel would have been quite a coup for the IRA if they could have managed it by bombing a train. You only need to remember the disruption that the fires in the tunnel caused. That is probably why the luggage scanning was a requirement in the first place, to stop the IRA getting such publicity for their cause. It would have been a brave politician who withdrew the checks in the light of the 11/9 (I'm not American) Twin Towers attacks, the London bombings in the early 2000s and the suicide attacks by folks with religious and political axes to grind who are apparently quite happy to blow themselves to smithereens and don't care who they take with them.

 

Because of the essential/pointless* (*please delete as applicable) desire of politicians of both major UK political parties for the UK to "punch above its weight on the world stage", and getting into bed with the USA over Afghanistan, we'll remain a highly visible target for the axe-grinders. So I can't see the security checks being dropped in my lifetime. They don't add too much time, possibly 15 minutes or so, IIRC, on the outward leg, but changing at Lille on the way back adds about an hour, not to mention the inconvenience. As long as that remains, longer distance Eurostar services won't happen. 

 

I feel very sorry for Eurostar, I've always enjoyed using their services and, like others, we made the journey part of our holiday which is why we used to pay the extra for Standard Premier class. It did cost a bit extra for overnight accommodation in London if it was an early morning departure, but that added to the fun. 

[roythebus1]

On 08/05/2021 at 12:04, corneliuslundie said:

On a lighter note, it would be fun if Wales ever got independence since there are a few villages where the border runs down the middle of the main street. Are there such places in Europe too? And between Kosova and Montenegro there is a sort of no-man's land which appears to be in neither country (there is about 1 km between the two border posts) but plenty of people live in that area.

Jonathan

Yes, a couple of years ago we drove through Belgium to view a property. One town we went through was unusual, loads of filling stations one side of the road with prices at Luxembourg prices, the other side plain Belgian style houses. The border ran down the edge of the road for about 2km. Edited to add: Just looked it up, Rombach-Moutelange on the N4. One side for cheap diesel, the other side for decent Belgian beer.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by roythebus1

[GoingUnderground]

When I was a kid, the better-off folks flew, whilst the less well off went by train.

 

Nowadays it seems to be the reverse, thanks to the low cost of airline tickets compared to train tickets.

 

But back in the days that I'm referring to the airlines treated you like you were special even if you went "economy class". Nowadays the airlinestreat you like  you're just a piece of freight, suckered in with a low headline price and then you find you have to pay for all the extras that you used to take for granted, such as taking a suitcase with you, or having something to eat and/or drink in flight.

[lmsforever]

I flew to Glasgow twice and since then have always gone by train I have doing the train for twenty years and wont go near a plane ever.

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

But back in the days that I'm referring to the airlines treated you like you were special even if you went "economy class". Nowadays the airlinestreat you like  you're just a piece of freight, suckered in with a low headline price and then you find you have to pay for all the extras that you used to take for granted, such as taking a suitcase with you, or having something to eat and/or drink in flight.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

32 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

I flew to Glasgow twice and since then have always gone by train I have doing the train for twenty years and wont go near a plane ever.

 

I'm the opposite.

Took the train from London to Edinburgh once. Never again. A horrible experience.

I went back to flying.

 

Until the last couple of years, my regular trips from the south coast to (near) Manchester would be either by car or by plane.

I've used the train a few times, XC direct from SOA, or via London with SWT, LUL, VWC...as was (which took about the same total time as direct with XC) .

The train journey is tedious and can be thoroughly unpleasant, particularly with XC and when there's overcrowding.

 

If I needed the car at the other end I drove, but nowadays hate the long journey and traffic.

Otherwise it's fly every time. Much shorter time wise and in my eyes, a much better and more relaxing experience.

 

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Edited May 10, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Siberian Snooper]

When I boarded the Spanish high speed trains back in 2005, my bag was scanned and I was run over with a metal detector. Also on the train from Barcelona back to France there was a passport check at the border, it was done between the last station in Spain and the first in France.