Eurostar seeking financial aid

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

When I boarded the Spanish high speed trains back in 2005, my bag was scanned and I was run over with a metal detector. Also on the train from Barcelona back to France there was a passport check at the border, it was done between the last station in Spain and the first in France.

Wouldn't that have been part of the ongoing response to the 2004 Madrid train bombing, and the continuing problem with Basque separatists who were, at one point, said to have been the perpetrators of the Madrid bombing?

 

When we went to Lisbon by train about 8 years ago on the overnight sleeper service from Irun to Lisbon, there were no passport checks or security checks as we passed from France into Spain on a local train, there was no direct TGV between Hendaye and Irun. Nor were there any checks between Spain and Portugal in either direction.

[Trainshed Terry]

I say if Eurostar need a bail out, let the share holders bail the company out from the mega proffits they have earned.

 

Terry.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Trainshed Terry

[Pandora]

On 10/05/2021 at 02:46, phil-b259 said:

 

All of which could easily happen to a international train between France and Germany say! Yet I notice that hasn't meant France or Germany have required 'sealed trains' with boarding only permissible by being processed through fixed installations by border force personnel!

 

Saying 'they can't because of the permeable land border' is only half an answer, because although factually correct it still doesn't address how the authorities on the other side of the border deal with the arrivals which must therefore make it through.

 

This is the nub of the issue - when you don't have a big wide moat round your castle you have to use your brains and cunning to outwit those that would do you harm without unduly compromising yourself.

 

Now you will probably argue that the number of Asylum seekers using international trains or breaking into lorries between France and Germany is tiny compared to the number that would do so between France and the UK - and I wouldn't disagree with that statement. However the fact that it doesn't generally happen between other EU states also doesn't mean its a naturally occurring state of affairs at borders.

 

Addressing the 'pull factors' - including the ease of which people can find work within the black / hidden economy and avoid interaction with the state, not to mention the ease with which the UK immigration bodies can 'lose' people might be a good place to start and far more effective in the long run, though I concede that its a bit hard to do much about the  attraction of speaking English. 

 

 

 

A workmate, BSc Computer Science, polymath,  Dutch, but lived and worked  in Germany for several years, he describe the reason UK is such a target for  illegal immigrants,  such people purposely  bypass Germany France for the UK, he warned me the UK is considered easy for to "vanish"  and live and work as an illegal, and even make use of the welfare state. Contrast Germany, where everyone has to register with the Police with their address etc,  He describes life in  Germany as a "You can run but you cannot hide"  Illegals are soon found out in Germany, 

[hayfield]

18 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I feel very sorry for Eurostar, I've always enjoyed using their services and, like others, we made the journey part of our holiday which is why we used to pay the extra for Standard Premier class. It did cost a bit extra for overnight accommodation in London if it was an early morning departure, but that added to the fun. 

 

This is what my wife and me think about using Eurostar for rail journeys to Italy and the south of France, even the overnight stay in London with a nice meal is a great way to start a holiday.

[Pandora]

The Govt sold the UK stake in Eurostar in 2015 for £757m after wasting  £3 bn  in "investment" in Eurostar.

In simple terms by a  demand for UK bailout of £600m ( the first and  not the last),  the French simply want their money back.

 

The sale of the UK government’s entire financial interest in Eurostar (40% stake and preference share) generated proceeds of £757.1 million, resulted in the government achieving its objective of maximising proceeds, and represented value for money for the taxpayer, according to a report by the National Audit Office.

However, the total taxpayer investment in Eurostar, prior to its incorporation, is significantly greater than the proceeds generated from this sale. Taxpayer spending on the HS1 project, of which Eurostar cross-channel train service is one part, was over £8 billion. The NAO estimates that UK taxpayers’ financial investment directly related to the Eurostar train service amounts to approximately £3 billion.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Pandora

[adb968008]

On 07/05/2021 at 16:35, phil-b259 said:

 

 

You still don't get the point - we are not talking about an all stations train from Edinburgh to France!

 

We are talking about a Manchester or Birmingham to London express service (with limited calls at places like Rugby or Stockport as per current practice) which is then extended to France!

 

In effect the Eurostar replaces one of the train paths used by LNER, Avanti to London. London passengers could simply alight at St Pancras or Stratford International and be replaced with international travellers from London the costs of running the train are therefore covered by those breaking the journey in London  - not just those few end to end travellers!

 

It would make more sense to do that with HS2, have it run through London and use traditional rail to terminate in destinations in Kent, Anglia and Sussex.

Theres more chance of higher demand for Brighton to Coventry passengers, than a Calais to Coventry passengers*

*Insert other domestic choices as you wish.

 

 Unfortunately we are out of the EU, and probably for the most of us, that will be for rest of our lives, and maybe our childrens too.
Any chance of open borders, let alone open international rail routes is pie in the sky... as with all things international, you cannot exclusively blame the UK, its a diplomatic thing, it requires bi-directional agreement...

I think a domestic agenda on cross london services, in the vein of your suggestions has much more merit, and probably cheaper/ more efficient than grand underground palaces that require lots of connecting passengers... I hold up Berlin Hauptbahhof, Antwerp and Amsterdam ring as excellant examples of city implementations of such planning.

I think Manchester is one of our better examples.. that previously separate services out and back, were joined to make through services...indeed the L&Y had great ideas as such from the outset, including a Manchester avoiding mainline (Wigan-Bolton-Rochdale)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 Unfortunately we are out of the EU, and probably for the most of us, that will be for rest of our lives, and maybe our childrens too.
Any chance of open borders, let alone open international rail routes is pie in the sky... as with all things international, you cannot exclusively blame the UK, its a diplomatic thing, it requires bi-directional agreement...

 

 

We never had open borders when we were a member, with one exception The Republic of Ireland, which existed prior to our membership and still exists

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, Pandora said:

The Govt sold the UK stake in Eurostar in 2015 for £757m after wasting  £3 bn  in "investment" in Eurostar.

In simple terms by a  demand for UK bailout of £600m ( the first and  not the last),  the French simply want their money back.

 

 

Why should the French think it was their money that was raised from the sale of the UK government stake?

Nothing was taken out of Eurostar in the sale. The £757m came from the new partners who paid what they considered to be a worthwhile price to acquire their new shares.

£757m was the value of the UK's share, raised by the sale. It was the rightly the UK's money.

 

As for the sale, think about government finances post the 2008 crash and the subsequent need to sort out the economy.

Faced with that, sitting on a share asset that would take at least 15 to 20 years to potentially generate a similar amount in dividends, to what was raised by the sale, it might be considered to have been a prudent move to raise such a large amount as a lump sum, to spend on vital public services.

Note also that the year after the sale, 2016, Eurostar made a loss of £25m.

 

What the French have effectively been doing, by asking the UK to help bail out  Eurostar, looks suspiciously like an attempt to con the UK government into bankrolling their new French/ Belgian join venture, the new company being created by the merger of Eurostar with Thalys, under the Greenspeed project.

 

.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Eurostar refinancing and rescue package formally announced.....

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-eurostar-secures-250m-rescue-package-from-shareholders-and-banks-12309885

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57157376

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

What UK mainstream press reports have not included is the bit about the merger .

 

Quotes:

 

"Eurostar said its focus would now be on restoring demand on its core routes from London to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam; maintaining rigorous cost control to ensure loan repayments; and completing the planned merger with Thalys under the Green Speed project to create ‘one unified European high speed rail company’". (Railway Gazette)

 

"Eurostar also said it's also pushing ahead with its planned merger with Thalys, an international railway running links between Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands. The merger plan is dubbed Green Speed and was first announced in 2019"..(Politico)

 

"With the refinancing in place, Eurostar will have the opportunity to recover and successfully complete its merger with Thalys, as part of the Green Speed project". (Global Railway Review)

 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[hayfield]

I see it says to increase the number of journeys, prior to the pandemic it is stated that up to 55 trains ran a day, now its 2 in each direction, 1 to Paris the other to Amsterdam via Brussels.

 

Is it increasing the number of journeys back to the previous levels or above the previous levels ?

 

Good news with the tie up with Thalys as it seems that increased destinations may be available

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 minutes ago, hayfield said:

.....Is it increasing the number of journeys back to the previous levels or above the previous levels ?

 

 

The operator plans to add a second daily London – Paris return service from May 27, rising to three per day from the end of June.

A gradual increase in frequency is envisaged over the summer period as travel restrictions are eased.

No timescales were announced for any increase or strengthening the Brussels and Amsterdam route.

 

It's a merger to absorb Eurostar into Thalys, to create a new combined operator, not a "tie up".

The language suggests the routes across the channel to London, are being viewed as a branch off the new combined network.

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

I doubt that they are viewed as a "branch", considering Eurostar carried approximately 50% more passengers annually than Thalys (c.11m v c.7m) pre-Covid. I think the merger is more about two things:

 

a) the sharing of resources on routes effectively mostly shared already, particularly train sets, to get costs down and further opportunities up

 

b) an attempt to kybosh any future attempt by DBAG (or others) to compete, and thus also the ability to raise fares further.

 

I just wonder where the Canadian and US shareholders in EUKL stand in this merger?

[Ron Ron Ron]

36 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

....I just wonder where the Canadian and US shareholders in EUKL stand in this merger?

 

Indeed, it'll be interesting to see what their part will be in all this.

Previously, I've wondered if they'd be bought out by the French and Belgians, but I note that a Canadian investment bank is listed as one of the lenders in the Eurostar rescue package, presumably to provide the dosh for them to cough up their share of the refinancing.

 

The merger must also increase Belgian NMBS/SNCB's interest (stockholding) in the ex-Eurostar part of the business.

They're the smallest (5%) and a very minor partner in EIL  (note; EUKL ceased to exist 11 and a half years ago), but they have larger shareholdings in the two Thalys companies (30% in "Thalys International" and 40% in the operator, "THI Factory").

 

AFAIK, there's no information yet on any new branding, or whether the current brand identities will survive in some form.

 

 

 

.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It's a merger to absorb Eurostar into Thalys, to create a new combined operator, not a "tie up".

The language suggests the routes across the channel to London, are being viewed as a branch off the new combined network.

 

Lille-London shuttle, with immigration and onwards connections in Lille to Thalys ?

Edited May 18, 2021 by adb968008

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Lille-London shuttle, with immigration and onwards connections in Lille to Thalys ?

Would be an excellent way to suppress demand for the services. They'll know what station pairs generate traffic, and will serve them accordingly.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Would be an excellent way to suppress demand for the services. They'll know what station pairs generate traffic, and will serve them accordingly.

All depends where the money is.

Paris -Brussels-Antwerp-Rotterdam-Amsterdam is a european jewel of a revenue earning service.

 

if the money is in Thalys paths between Paris and Brussels, reclaiming them from Eurostar, which has always claimed Brussels to London as the weakest link, may make economic sense.
Given the volume of Financial services that have relocated to Paris and Amsterdam, that route is only going to get busier.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by adb968008

[Pandora]

17 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Eurostar refinancing and rescue package formally announced.....

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-eurostar-secures-250m-rescue-package-from-shareholders-and-banks-12309885

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57157376

 

 

 

.

The rescue package as above  is for £250 million,   Eurostar  requested £600 million from the UK. Is there an explanation for the difference of 350 million? 

[Zomboid]

250 mil will keep them going for less time than 600 would have?

[Mike Storey]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

All depends where the money is.

Paris -Brussels-Antwerp-Rotterdam-Amsterdam is a european jewel of a revenue earning service.

 

if the money is in Thalys paths between Paris and Brussels, reclaiming them from Eurostar, which has always claimed Brussels to London as the weakest link, may make economic sense.
Given the volume of Financial services that have relocated to Paris and Amsterdam, that route is only going to get busier.

 

 

 

 

 

Please read my previous post for the truth of this -

 

 

Eurostar traffic is worth around 50% more than the entire Thalys traffic combined (pre-Covid).

 

The bulk of Eurostar traffic is Leisure not Business (57%).

 

Paris- Brussels business only, already forms the vast bulk of Thalys income (67%).

 

 

In other words, it would take a massive step change not seen in any transportation system, outside a war, to achieve that which you propose. But carry on.

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Please read my previous post for the truth of this -

 

 

Eurostar traffic is worth around 50% more than the entire Thalys traffic combined (pre-Covid).

 

The bulk of Eurostar traffic is Leisure not Business (57%).

 

Paris- Brussels business only, already forms the vast bulk of Thalys income (67%).

 

 

In other words, it would take a massive step change not seen in any transportation system, outside a war, to achieve that which you propose. But carry on.

 

 

In theory this gives Eurostar an additional route tie up going north, these tie ups work well with airlines and something that perhaps could work well for rail travel

[Clearwater]

2 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Please read my previous post for the truth of this -

 

 

Eurostar traffic is worth around 50% more than the entire Thalys traffic combined (pre-Covid).

 

The bulk of Eurostar traffic is Leisure not Business (57%).

 

Paris- Brussels business only, already forms the vast bulk of Thalys income (67%).

 

 

In other words, it would take a massive step change not seen in any transportation system, outside a war, to achieve that which you propose. But carry on.

 

Mike

 

on what basis is that 57% calculated?  Is it number of journeys or proportion of revenue?  Given fare structures, might be the case that business revenue contributes a greater portion of revenue than leisure passengers.  Do you also have a feel for whether 43% business is high or low for a rail line?

 

 

[Mike Storey]

On 19/05/2021 at 22:32, Clearwater said:

Mike

 

on what basis is that 57% calculated?  Is it number of journeys or proportion of revenue?  Given fare structures, might be the case that business revenue contributes a greater portion of revenue than leisure passengers.  Do you also have a feel for whether 43% business is high or low for a rail line?

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, it is based on passenger numbers, so it is possible that Business contributes a greater share of revenue, although of course,  many business travellers (or their travel arrangers) select the cheapest possible fares (as mine used to do), and many leisure travellers pay over the odds, especially if travelling at short notice.

 

43% for business would appear to be a pretty consistent proportion for long distance, UK rail journeys across the board - last report I saw for GNER suggested around 40% of their business was, er, business, and the same for Virgin WC although that was a few years ago. SNCF reports are difficult to interpret, because a lot of their leisure travellers now use the Ouigo option (which has grown the market, or re-grown it, depending on your timescale), and that skews their main report on TGV usage - adding the two gives a very strange outcome, something like 75% leisure (2018), which does not make a lot of sense. Similarly, Thalys numbers are hard to translate, because many of the domestic operations of SNCB and NS are not sold under that flag, but use Thalys services (especially the Dutch), because of the strange surcharge arrangements now in place, when the tickets are sold in Germany or the Netherlands (and even some Belgian outlets) due to the way in which commission payments have been reduced by Thalys. That leaves a "reported" split of 52% leisure and 48% business for the sales made under Thalys directly. I have found it increasingly difficult to analyse other countries, without paying more subscription fees. So, answers on a postcard......

[Ron Ron Ron]

Reports emerging in the press say that Eurostar services are not expected to return to pre-Covid levels until 2025.

 

Quote

Eurostar services will remain below pre-pandemic levels for the next four years......

....Eurostar, currently running just one service a day, is expected to increase services gradually.

By March next year it will be at 50% of pre-crisis levels.
It will not be until 2025 that the number of train services will hit levels seen prior to the pandemic.  
 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Reports emerging in the press say that Eurostar services are not expected to return to pre-Covid levels until 2025.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

Could this also be linked to another story about the cost of carbon offsetting in the EU increasing which will affect the low cost airlines, coupled with business using things like Zoom to hold meetings rather than face to face meetings, resulting in a dramatic decline in both domestic and international business travel.

 

If this is the case Eurostar will have to rebrand into a service attracting personal and holiday traffic, which in turn explains the tie up with Thayls and cheap onward travel