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On 16/05/2021 at 16:15, adb968008 said:

It would make more sense to do that with HS2, have it run through London and use traditional rail to terminate in destinations in Kent, Anglia and Sussex.

Theres more chance of higher demand for Brighton to Coventry passengers, than a Calais to Coventry passengers*

*Insert other domestic choices as you wish.

 

 Unfortunately we are out of the EU, and probably for the most of us, that will be for rest of our lives, and maybe our childrens too.
Any chance of open borders, let alone open international rail routes is pie in the sky... as with all things international, you cannot exclusively blame the UK, its a diplomatic thing, it requires bi-directional agreement...


I think a domestic agenda on cross london services, in the vein of your suggestions has much more merit, and probably cheaper/ more efficient than grand underground palaces that require lots of connecting passengers... I hold up Berlin Hauptbahhof, Antwerp and Amsterdam ring as excellant examples of city implementations of such planning.

I think Manchester is one of our better examples.. that previously separate services out and back, were joined to make through services...indeed the L&Y had great ideas as such from the outset, including a Manchester avoiding mainline (Wigan-Bolton-Rochdale)

 

Long time since I looked at this thread but interesting to see that people still miss the key point (not just in the post above) about what used to be called 'beyond London' Eurostar trains - which in my view are only likely to be seen once every hen in the world has grown fangs to compare with those of a lion or every potential terrorist in Europe has been permanently disposed of..

 

EU membership - Schengen border control apart - is irrelevant  and would definitely be totally irrelevant to international E'star trains serving what amounts to UK domestic journeys.  The key factor is the Channel Tunnel security requirements and that as good as rules out carrying UK domestic traffic on a train which will pass through the Channel Tunnel because of the need to check all the passengers and their luggage (using approved scanning systems) prior to them passing through the Tunnel.   That in turn means that the checks would have to be applied to UK domestic journey passengers to ensure that they are not carrying anything which could be passed to an international passenger after the latter has been checked.  

 

And there is no way round this.  Over the years various representations were made to secure some sort of easement in order to allow Regional E'star trains to carry some UK domestic passengers and that was  flatly rejected every time even when it was seen as a potential route to improving the economics of those trains.  The same of course also applies in the opposite direction hence you would at Paris see the few passengers joining an E'star to travel to Calais going through the same security checks as those going to London.  It is why passengers from Amsterdam were turfed off the train in Brussels and delayed for an hour before the necessary facilities were in place in Amsterdam;  it is why passengers from jonction trains have to go upstairs to be checked at Lille ...  and so on.

 

The other big UK problem in the past was the very long journey time 'beyond London' nad that was really what killed the Regional trains.  HS 2 would make a definite difference in that respect but even than I suspect that only Birmingham would stand a reasonable chance of being commercial and even it would be debatable - the journey times would still be too long to be compeitive for business travel and leisure travel would centre mainly around the novelty value (not that Brum is in any event a tourist hot spot.  

 

The only potentially strong leisure markets eventually identified for Regional services were York and Edinburgh and even then it was estimated that they would merit no more than one or two trains per week, nothing like enough potential for a daily operation and obviously the extended journey times would still have been a big disincentive for many people.  

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Long time since I looked at this thread but interesting to see that people still miss the key point (not just in the post above) about what used to be called 'beyond London' Eurostar trains - which in my view are only likely to be seen once every hen in the world has grown fangs to compare with those of a lion or every potential terrorist in Europe has been permanently disposed of..

 

EU membership - Schengen border control apart - is irrelevant  and would definitely be totally irrelevant to international E'star trains serving what amounts to UK domestic journeys.  The key factor is the Channel Tunnel security requirements and that as good as rules out carrying UK domestic traffic on a train which will pass through the Channel Tunnel because of the need to check all the passengers and their luggage (using approved scanning systems) prior to them passing through the Tunnel.   That in turn means that the checks would have to be applied to UK domestic journey passengers to ensure that they are not carrying anything which could be passed to an international passenger after the latter has been checked.  

 

And there is no way round this.  Over the years various representations were made to secure some sort of easement in order to allow Regional E'star trains to carry some UK domestic passengers and that was  flatly rejected every time even when it was seen as a potential route to improving the economics of those trains.  The same of course also applies in the opposite direction hence you would at Paris see the few passengers joining an E'star to travel to Calais going through the same security checks as those going to London.  It is why passengers from Amsterdam were turfed off the train in Brussels and delayed for an hour before the necessary facilities were in place in Amsterdam;  it is why passengers from jonction trains have to go upstairs to be checked at Lille ...  and so on.

 

The other big UK problem in the past was the very long journey time 'beyond London' nad that was really what killed the Regional trains.  HS 2 would make a definite difference in that respect but even than I suspect that only Birmingham would stand a reasonable chance of being commercial and even it would be debatable - the journey times would still be too long to be compeitive for business travel and leisure travel would centre mainly around the novelty value (not that Brum is in any event a tourist hot spot.  

 

The only potentially strong leisure markets eventually identified for Regional services were York and Edinburgh and even then it was estimated that they would merit no more than one or two trains per week, nothing like enough potential for a daily operation and obviously the extended journey times would still have been a big disincentive for many people.  

Not sure why your mis-quoting me, as far as I see were in total agreement ?


 

Eurostar “stoppers” or long intl XC Style Eurostar is, has and always will be a dead duck.

 

however domestically, a thru London feed with XC would make sense, not for Eurostar.. but for HS2 services.


I do think though that Euston Palace and Old Oak Pipe dreams are white elephants awaiting construction. I only see money pits there.

my point was HS2 would be much more useful if it passed through London, to UK domestic destinations on classic rail routes.... Manchester to Brighton via a Euston thru station, or Norwich to Birmingham via a Euston thru station etc would be much more useful than subjecting passengers to a continued multi-tube ordeal across London... basically swap the OC idea for Euston, and dump the underground terminal palace idea, use the money to push for more through London rail links...

 

think new world, rather than old world... Victorians built London Termini because Londoners lived in London, and people went on summer vacation to the grassy fields of Zone 5... Today those grassy fields are houses full of Londoners who start business travel from there, not a horse drawn carriage on Euston rd.

 

Londoners today, don’t live in Zone 1... and since covid, even more are trying to exit London...but thats more in line with proximity to the M25 not the M42.., just because Brum is 1 hour away on HS2 doesn't make it a cost effective commute... it’ll still be the same old passengers, just using a different line... and those who need a 1 hour commute to Euston, for a 1 hour trip to Brum will still use the M25 and M40 as door to door will be faster... if OC had a big car park and motorway access, it might have swung it.

 

to me Eurostar is a busted flush. But its not too late to make a UKStar out of HS2.

Edited by adb968008
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10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Londoners today, don’t live in Zone 1... and since covid, even more are trying to exit London...but thats more in line with proximity to the M25 not the M42.., just because Brum is 1 hour away on HS2 doesn't make it a cost effective commute... it’ll still be the same old passengers, just using a different line... and those who need a 1 hour commute to Euston, for a 1 hour trip to Brum will still use the M25 and M40 as door to door will be faster... if OC had a big car park and motorway access, it might have swung it.

 

An hour on the train to any station in London is nothing like a one-hour commute.  First you have to get to the departure station from wherever you live, and park your means of getting there.  And at the other end you have to get from that London station to your office,  typically another half hour in total.  And you've got to do it in the other direction after work. 

 

Even if you select a house that gives you a sensible route with a relatively easy journey, that's fine until your employer decides to move to new premises, gets taken over by a competitor etc or you are made redundant or leave to work for somebody else for whatever reason.  Do you move, make the kids get used to a new school, have to adapt new house to your needs, find your model railway won't fit?  Only to expect you might have to do it again in ? years later

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12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

An hour on the train to any station in London is nothing like a one-hour commute.  First you have to get to the departure station from wherever you live, and park your means of getting there.  And at the other end you have to get from that London station to your office,  typically another half hour in total.  And you've got to do it in the other direction after work. 

 

Even if you select a house that gives you a sensible route with a relatively easy journey, that's fine until your employer decides to move to new premises, gets taken over by a competitor etc or you are made redundant or leave to work for somebody else for whatever reason.  Do you move, make the kids get used to a new school, have to adapt new house to your needs, find your model railway won't fit?  Only to expect you might have to do it again in ? years later

 

I lived in an area which on a fast service to Euston which was only 18 mins, many just accepted the daily commute without question.  I was lucky in having a 5 min walk to the station, but it took me longer to go from Euston to  Oxford circus than the main line journey, especially when you could not get on full tube trains. I think many called it the daily drudge

 

Working from home has many benefits, but also drawbacks of working alone. My son in law loves it as he is on Zoom calls a lot so has a lot of interaction with others. But someone who stares at a screen all day may have issues.

 

Nothing beats the company of working with others especially if it includes a bit of banter.

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Actually, a 2 hour commute to London has been going on for years - the Bournemouth/Weymouth area really took off after the 1967 electrification/introduction of the 4REP/4TC/33 sets, and the East Coast towns & cities north of Peterborough became more popular as electrification moved north. (The "sparks effect"). Given the prices of houses in & around London, you can see the attraction, even with the price of season tickets.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Nothing beats the company of working with others especially if it includes a bit of banter.

Provided I get to pick the 'others'...

 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, MarkC said:

‘Actually, a 2 hour commute to London has been going on for years - the Bournemouth/Weymouth area really took off after the 1967 electrification/introduction of the 4REP/4TC/33 sets, and the East Coast towns & cities north of Peterborough became more popular as electrification moved north. (The "sparks effect"). Given the prices of houses in & around London, you can see the attraction, even with the price of season tickets.

I’m not so convinced.


Today a Birmingham to London Travelcard zones 1-6 season ticket is £12k a year standard class with Avanti. Its another £1,200 to park at BIrmingham International.

 

x2 for a married couple thats £26k.. before mortgage, food and on that commute your buying Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner too. Then add in £1k a month for child care.

Your very quickly looking at 2 people on £80k a year jobs just to make it work... 

 

Then consider what happens when the RMT walks out, just as you leave london at 6pm, needing to be home before your kids nursery closes at 730pm... your suddenly very vulnerable, and a worst case taxi, different tube line, bus service or rail route just wont help.

 

Sure theres some who do this today, but I suspect they are on expenses, self employed (claiming the tax back), or just 1 parent in the family doing it, where as your Zone 5 commute is much more family friendly /desk worker orientated.

 

Most Londoners have learnt years ago, you need 2 alternatives for transport, just in case...

 

 

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Pre-plague I knew people who commuted those kind of distances, though i don't think they were in a both partners doing it and sending a kid to nursery. The other partner afaik worked much closer to home, or stayed at home.

 

Which nurseries are open until 7.30? 5.30 is the norm around here. Which is one of the reasons we had to move closer to my wife's workplace.

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Back in 1973 I was commuting from Cambridge to Waterloo, 1 hour 15 min train minimum plus tube, though only a short walk to the station and from Waterloo. And I was by no means alone. Today many more people are commuting with such journey times, but of course from further out as trains have usually got faster. I don't know about Birmingham, but plenty of towns about the same travelling time from London, such as Peterborough and beyond, have very heavy commuter flows - and it is common too south of the Thames and has been since the 1930s - why else did the Southern invest in the fast Brighton services? Longer ago of course there was also some long distance commuting by the well off, such as North Wales to Liverpool. Unfortunately no Club Carriages on modern trains (now there's an idea for the marketing team!).

But not really relevant to the thread I am afraid. As stated, Eurostar in the UK will always simply be London to the Tunnel with maybe a couple of stops en route if there are customs facilities there. It is fantasy to think otherwise, with both the British "little island" mentality and the issues of security in the Tunnel. A great pity but unfortunately something we just have to accept. I am afraid that eventually Eurostar may go the same way as the Bishop's Castle Railway, though there should still be healthy Tunnel freight traffic if they can sort out the current customs clearance mess.

And no, I shall not be using Eurostar as part of my next journey from Newtown (Powys) to Durres (Albania). I am afraid that Birmingham to Tirana by air via Istanbul wins despite my love of travelling by train - not that I could do the last but by train anyway.

Jonathan

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5 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

 it is common too south of the Thames and has been since the 1930s - why else did the Southern invest in the fast Brighton services?

The Brighton railway had been carrying commuters to London since Victorian times. Eastbourne, Brighton and Hove were all popular dormitories for City magnates in the late C19. The 5 p.m. group of departures from London Bridge back to the coast goes back a very long way.  

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21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not so convinced.


Today a Birmingham to London Travelcard zones 1-6 season ticket is £12k a year standard class with Avanti. Its another £1,200 to park at BIrmingham International.

 

x2 for a married couple thats £26k.. before mortgage, food and on that commute your buying Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner too. Then add in £1k a month for child care.

Your very quickly looking at 2 people on £80k a year jobs just to make it work... 

 

Then consider what happens when the RMT walks out, just as you leave london at 6pm, needing to be home before your kids nursery closes at 730pm... your suddenly very vulnerable, and a worst case taxi, different tube line, bus service or rail route just wont help.

 

Sure theres some who do this today, but I suspect they are on expenses, self employed (claiming the tax back), or just 1 parent in the family doing it, where as your Zone 5 commute is much more family friendly /desk worker orientated.

 

Most Londoners have learnt years ago, you need 2 alternatives for transport, just in case...

 

 

 

Sorry but, apart from the price of the season (and that is incredible, given that from Peterborough, only about 20 miles nearer, it is only £8.5k), none of the rest makes any sense. I travelled from Peterborough to London (various destinations over the years) for around 20 years, both in Standard and First, and knew a lot of my fellow commuters. There were virtually none who were couples, both doing the same commute. Furthermore, we all knew why we were doing it - because we could not afford a half million pound house in London (we are going back a few years here) but neither could we afford to take the sort of salaries available in or around Peterborough, if we wanted a decent lifestyle. You pays yer money, etc.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Sorry but, apart from the price of the season (and that is incredible, given that from Peterborough, only about 20 miles nearer, it is only £8.5k), none of the rest makes any sense. I travelled from Peterborough to London (various destinations over the years) for around 20 years, both in Standard and First, and knew a lot of my fellow commuters. There were virtually none who were couples, both doing the same commute. Furthermore, we all knew why we were doing it - because we could not afford a half million pound house in London (we are going back a few years here) but neither could we afford to take the sort of salaries available in or around Peterborough, if we wanted a decent lifestyle. You pays yer money, etc.

 

Single, no family, dont care, misses stays at home, individual still lives at home etc then your post makes sense.

 

HS2 is great those the young and single, but I understand its business case is based on growth... so unless weve got a baby boom... wheres the growth coming from ?

 

I reckon you need an £80k salary for this, £25k will goto the tax man straight away, if you want to do more than work to live... so youve got £55k.

If your train ticket is £12.5k, lets assume the annual mortgage is the same, then you have monthly bills, car etc.. thats £3k a month gone, or plus food etc c£40k a year..  leaving c£15k to dispose at will for your hard efforts.

If circumstance doesnt offer that, then questionning the employment location or the residence location may make sense.

Thats my maths.

 

if your on an £80k+ salary, your not going to need to live in Birmingham, to work in London... nor are you going to want to, if your single and young and want to party with your co-workers... you can eliminate £12k of travelcard, the car and the parking just by living in London and having a £2k travelcard.

 

Are houses, parking and childcare  free in Birmingham ? Do people not pay income tax ?

 

As Peterborough isnt on the HS2 route.. its not really relevent... fares are set by demand & subsidy, not distance. (If it were set purely by distance the north would be in shock and the south having a party).

 

All this against aback drop of people exiting flats in London for zone2-6.. meaning flats in London are going to become much cheaper for the young free and singles...

 

I dont see where the growth is coming from, and I just dont see the attraction of people rushing to exit London for Birmingham for the pleasure of a long distance commute...

 

so if my post makes no sense its because i’m confused, as your so enlightened...

 

So why not explain it ...

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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I thought for a minute this was the HS2 thread.

This kind of thing has been discussed to death there.

I know I contributed to the above debate, but perhaps we ought to get back to the topic in the headline - if there is anything left to say.

Jonathan

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Agreed, though as Eurostar has its financial aid, and in my opinion, from where it should have come from.. then I’m not sure theres much more to say.

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Posted (edited)

London Tfl has received another bailout, £1.08 bn,  proof of the severe problems  we are facing  with our own public  transport  issues.

London will collapse if Tfl fails to run trains and buses,  Eurostar  is a mere  triviality  in comparison with London wide needs of London commuters,  I hope we have heard the last of the bleating of the French transport minister , cap-in-hand for  £650 m for "their"  railway service.

Edited by Pandora
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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Pandora said:

London Tfl has received another bailout, £1.08 bn,  proof of the severe problems  we are facing  with our own public  transport  issues.

London will collapse if Tfl fails to run trains and buses,  Eurostar  is a mere  triviality  in comparison with London wide needs of London commuters,  I hope we have heard the last of the bleating of the French transport minister , cap-in-hand for  £650 m for "their"  railway service.

Is it not more like "If the government wants us to run these services, this is what the government will have to pay to ensure the services can run, given the unforeseen problems over the last 16 months"? It's only a bailout because the initial funding was inadequate.

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1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Is it not more like "If the government wants us to run these services, this is what the government will have to pay to ensure the services can run, given the unforeseen problems over the last 16 months"? It's only a bailout because the initial funding was inadequate.

 

16 mths ago no one would have imagined we would be where we are today, initially it was for a short sharp circuit breaker, though the supporting TFL was much later in the year after the first lockdown and may have been before the second wave got out of hand, therefore was only ever designed to be a sticking plaster 

 

 

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3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

16 mths ago no one would have imagined we would be where we are today, initially it was for a short sharp circuit breaker, though the supporting TFL was much later in the year after the first lockdown and may have been before the second wave got out of hand, therefore was only ever designed to be a sticking plaster 

 

 

 

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Can I say, the wife and myself are waiting for the pandemic to end, our next foreign holiday will be one where we take the train through the tunnel and go to Italy, the funds are in my retirement holiday fund and have been for over a year. We have not chosen where to go yet, but it will be using Eurostar.

 

I would love to take the train from Milan to Sicily, however far more likely to be a resort based, the wife wants to visit lake Maggiore. I prefer a 3 resort tour (but I will not have to do all the packing and unpacking)  On the other hand there are also some tours to France and Spain that look very interesting

 

With the reduction of business travel I assume Eurostar need to rethink its business plan. Certainly for us the security issues for going through the tunnel are fine and encompass the border requirements. An easier transition to the TGV network past Paris would be a welcome improvement, the tie up with Thalys looks interesting.

 

Certainly the resource we have seems under used as far as Eurostar is concerned, increases in numbers may affect Eurotunnel trains. As it is the terminal at St Pancras would have to be enlarged if numbers of trains increase, as its chaotic when trains are delayed, simply due to lack of space. And are there the trains available for increased services?

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Posted (edited)

Its going to be interesting to see EU and UKs immigration stances.

Eurostar handles immigration before boarding at both ends, but UK policy has turned quite aggressive of late..

 

The UK has already refused entry to more than 3000 and jailed them at Yarl wood, Colnbrook etc before being deported... and were not talking about societies lows either these are stories Europeans are reading in their news papers...

 

many of these are young 20 somethings off on their first solo adventures, others are working professionals..

 

google Hotel Manager, Sergio D’Alberti, he is headlines in nearly every EU country after being locked up, deported for being told 4500 Euro is not enough money to visit the UK with...

 

 

italy

https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2021/05/13/news/eu_citizens_detained_uk_border_prisions_jail_brexit_italian_young_woman_cried_seized_cellphone_smartphone_colnbrook_deported-300724272/


greece

https://neweuropeans.net/article/3492/brexit-nightmare-young-greek-citizen-detained-heathrow-7-days

 

spain

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2021-05-17/the-dark-side-of-brexit-european-citizens-being-detained-in-migrant-holding-centers-in-uk.html

 

EU

https://www.reuters.com/world/eu-leaders-will-urge-uk-respect-rights-their-citizens-2021-05-19/

 

others..


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled

 

https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/28/thousands-of-eu-citizens-refused-uk-entry-in-three-months-since-brexit

 

https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/17/there-were-bars-on-the-windows-italian-national-detained-upon-arrival-in-uk-over-visa-mist

 

whilst I respect rules are rules and borders are borders, deporting a Czech girl to Mexico, just because she was stopping over here whilst returning from a vacation before returning to Prague seems a little harsh... it wont do any good for BAs connecting flight business with stories like that.

 

Now imagine 27 countries deciding on your entry permit to the EU, knowing that the UK is treating EU citizens harshly...

 

we reap what we sow..

 

one badly translated word at immigration can turn your holiday into a jail cell.


 

Eurostar could be an interesting journey later this year.

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Or the pub owner who has been told he must leave the country because he is not making enough money - he has been putting his money into the pub rather than taking it out.

Sorry, off topic but these things really annoy me.

Jonathan

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Or the pub owner who has been told he must leave the country because he is not making enough money - he has been putting his money into the pub rather than taking it out.

Sorry, off topic but these things really annoy me.

Jonathan

Hello pot, i’m kettle...

Is there a hidden subliminal message known only by a secret few that pertains to Eurostar bailouts in your post below ?

 

On 03/06/2021 at 09:38, corneliuslundie said:

Back in 1973 I was commuting from Cambridge to Waterloo, 1 hour 15 min train minimum plus tube, though only a short walk to the station and from Waterloo. And I was by no means alone. Today many more people are commuting with such journey times, but of course from further out as trains have usually got faster. I don't know about Birmingham, but plenty of towns about the same travelling time from London, such as Peterborough and beyond, have very heavy commuter flows - and it is common too south of the Thames and has been since the 1930s - why else did the Southern invest in the fast Brighton services? Longer ago of course there was also some long distance commuting by the well off, such as North Wales to Liverpool. Unfortunately no Club Carriages on modern trains (now there's an idea for the marketing team!).

But not really relevant to the thread I am afraid. As stated, Eurostar in the UK will always simply be London to the Tunnel with maybe a couple of stops en route if there are customs facilities there. It is fantasy to think otherwise, with both the British "little island" mentality and the issues of security in the Tunnel. A great pity but unfortunately something we just have to accept. I am afraid that eventually Eurostar may go the same way as the Bishop's Castle Railway, though there should still be healthy Tunnel freight traffic if they can sort out the current customs clearance mess.

And no, I shall not be using Eurostar as part of my next journey from Newtown (Powys) to Durres (Albania). I am afraid that Birmingham to Tirana by air via Istanbul wins despite my love of travelling by train - not that I could do the last but by train anyway.

Jonathan

 

 

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If I remember it was part of the discussion, slightly tangential (what a surprise), about long distance commuting and possible relevance to the never existing Regional Eurostar. It had been suggested that long distance commuting was a new thing and I was pointing out that it was not.

Actually, since there seems to be nothing more useful to say about the Eurostar bale-out, I suspect that it would be kindest to let this thread die in peace.

Jonathan

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