Eurostar seeking financial aid

[hayfield]

30 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

But be careful what you wish for, I do think that the invisible wall of Europe will economically separate us, and think Lille will become the Euro immigration hub for UK passengers, with passengers diverted to onwards continental connections at some point, with a few token services to Paris.

 

 

What the problem with having a proper hub at Lille, if we can then easily transfer to another platform to continue our journey north/east/south. Even have the option to stay on for Paris/Brussels/ Amsterdam.

 

The reason Eurotunnel works is that its easy and convenient, Eurostar is easy if you wish to go to the termi but not for onward travel.

[Zomboid]

Wouldn't Lille require a lot of infrastructure changes to become an international terminus?

 

Having a proper hub-like interchange there would be no bad thing, provided the connections are adequate. But I'd expect most trains to continue to Paris or Brussels in any case.

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

Why do we need Eurostar going to most major cities in the UK?

 

I wasn't implying that it should ! Merely pointing out that London is quite a long way from many parts of the UK, meaning that air travel will always be faster from some places. 

 

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

What is needed is most cities in the UK to be able to feed into (or from if traveling from Europe) Eurostar,

 

There was at one time an Edinburgh/Waterloo HST, providing a same-station connection with Eurostar. The only problem being, hardly anyone used it ! Nowadays a near-same station interchange is available between Kings X and St Pancras, a same-station interchange within St Pancras, and an interchange involving a short walk between Euston (my normal station of arrival from Scotland) and St Pancras.     However..... I still made the journeys I mentioned by air, and would do so again. 

 

[Mark Saunders]

22 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I wasn't implying that it should ! Merely pointing out that London is quite a long way from many parts of the UK, meaning that air travel will always be faster from some places. 

 

 

There was at one time an Edinburgh/Waterloo HST, providing a same-station connection with Eurostar. The only problem being, hardly anyone used it ! Nowadays a near-same station interchange is available between Kings X and St Pancras, a same-station interchange within St Pancras, and an interchange involving a short walk between Euston (my normal station of arrival from Scotland) and St Pancras.     However..... I still made the journeys I mentioned by air, and would do so again. 

 

The connection service was only for Eurostar passengers and even refused to allow train crews returning pass on it join at Peterborough to go to York!

 

The only time it was reasonably loaded was when Scotland were playing France in Paris. 

[hayfield]

It depends what is important to you, with few exceptions many have to spend hours getting to an airport, then hang around for hours, once the plane lands you normally have to wait around for a while then have miles to go to your destination .  When we go on a foreign holiday basically the first and last days are written off and not very enjoyable, in fact stressful

 

We have enjoyed several holidays in Italy going by train. The Eurostar lounge is usually quite pleasant to pass the hour prior to departure. The train journey to Paris is a delight with the exception of the two tunnels the views are interesting, if you want get up and have a stroll, get a drink  or a snack. Garde du Nord is a pain, but once at the Garde du Lyon you can grab lunch whilst you wait for a train to whisk you south.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

We do, its called St Pancras International, conveniently sandwiched in-between the ECML and WCML and with its own MML feed, and served with a near every 30 second Thameslink service to Kent, Brighton. St Pancras is very well placed.

 

I think until recently through ticketing options were still available.

 

Where I think the project fail is, is HS2 should go under and straight through London, terminating out the other side onto classic rail destinations in Anglia or Kent.. no need for The Palace of Euston or the Desert of Old Oak, thus allows options on North/West to East /South direct routes without connections... much like Thameslink today, and in keeping with modern thinking in cities like Berlin, Amsterdam, Antwerp.

 

Belgium used to offer through ticketing to any Belgian destination on SNCB which was very nice, but that incentive ended when competition from airlines ceased, allowing prices to rise. Connecting in France, with luggage and kids is ill advised.

 

But be careful what you wish for, I do think that the invisible wall of Europe will economically separate us, and think Lille will become the Euro immigration hub for UK passengers, with passengers diverted to onwards continental connections at some point, with a few token services to Paris.

 

You can still get Eurostar tickets to and from any Belgian station, I have a pending journey to Antwerp, postponed from last July.

 

 

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

You can still get Eurostar tickets to and from any Belgian station, I have a pending journey to Antwerp, postponed from last July.

 

 

Is it a fixed destination, or a travelcard ?

the old one was a travelcard, so you had 24 hours from arrival in or before departure from Brussels to use the network.

the wording was “Any Belgian Station” on the destination, was great for weekend visits.

Edited May 6, 2021 by adb968008

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

It depends what is important to you, with few exceptions many have to spend hours getting to an airport, then hang around for hours, once the plane lands you normally have to wait around for a while then have miles to go to your destination .  When we go on a foreign holiday basically the first and last days are written off and not very enjoyable, in fact stressful

 

We have enjoyed several holidays in Italy going by train. The Eurostar lounge is usually quite pleasant to pass the hour prior to departure. The train journey to Paris is a delight with the exception of the two tunnels the views are interesting, if you want get up and have a stroll, get a drink  or a snack. Garde du Nord is a pain, but once at the Garde du Lyon you can grab lunch whilst you wait for a train to whisk you south.

 

 

I agree, and I have used Eurostar, to get to Paris and Cologne via Brussels, and the journeys were very pleasant. However on both occasions we were staying in Oxford, so the time penalty compared to flying was minimal, if any. Coming from further afield however, even taking into account airport delays and locations, the advantages of flying overtake the drawbacks. 

 

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

What the problem with having a proper hub at Lille,

 

The reason Eurotunnel works is that its easy and convenient, Eurostar is easy if you wish to go to the termi but not for onward travel.

The first line reflects the latter...

not connecting is the benefit, take that away then air /car becomes attractive again.

 

it all depends on whats viable in post Austerity, Post Brexit, Post Covid Uk-Europe travel... Brussels was always considered marginal before all that.

 

 

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

What the problem with having a proper hub at Lille, if we can then easily transfer to another platform to continue our journey north/east/south. Even have the option to stay on for Paris/Brussels/ Amsterdam.

 

The reason Eurotunnel works is that its easy and convenient, Eurostar is easy if you wish to go to the termi but not for onward travel.

 

There isn't a problem per say - but transiting that hub will take time which is a disincentive to use the service.

 

Humans like point to point journeys - not phafing around making changes. Its why the south London rail network has been dominated by a low service frequency to many different London termi and any attempt to simplify things bought howls of protest by regular commuters.

 

In the Beeching era it was suggested that when a branch line closed people would drive to the nearest mainline railhead - in reality they didn't! They drove all the way to where they wanted to go bypassing the whole 'connecting' process

 

We also see it in the airline world where even before Covid airlines were getting rid of large capacity planes based on a 'hub and spoke' service pattern in favour of lower capacity planes flying direct.

 

We also see its effects when rail replacement buses have to be used and passengers are forced to break their journey - ridership is significantly down compared to an equivalent time period when through services are available.

 

Therefore making people alight and be processed at Lille will permanently constrain Eurostars ability to generate more and more passengers over time - unlike French TGV or German ICE services where such processing is not required thanks to the EU Schengen scheme. Yes in time what might be termed 'Capitals' traffic will return and will no doubt be sufficient to support a reasonable service frequency, but any hopes of growing the reach of Eurostar further into the regions beyond will continually be throttled by current UK border policies

 

 

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

 

 

There was at one time an Edinburgh/Waterloo HST, providing a same-station connection with Eurostar. The only problem being, hardly anyone used it !

 

 

Precisely.

 

Had those trains been open to domestic travellers then I bet they would have had reasonable-ish loadings with folk using them as a cross country service within the UK.

 

Given passengers using those services would have had to go through border controls at Waterloo International anyway its almost as if the Government deliberately set the things up to fail.

 

As you note now that the Eurostar terminal has moved to St Pancras its much easier for folk from the north to use the service and led to a rise in users living in counties along the ECML, MML and WCML.

 

However by contrast if you live on the South Western or to a lesser extent the Great Western network then its not as convent and this has  been proven to have resulted in less sales to people living in areas served by SWR / GWR.

 

Whether the new customers gained outweigh those lost would be an interesting analysis to perform - but much hunch is it would probably turn out 'revenue neutral' as the been counters call it

[phil-b259]

On 05/05/2021 at 20:04, adb968008 said:

 

Both Eurostar 374 and DB class 407 are Siemans Velaro-D design.

It was designed to meet tunnel spec, and DB were approved to operate.

 

 

Yes the trains were approved in technical terms (i.e. they wouldn't interfere with signalling, hit platforms, hypnotise drivers while they transited the tunnel, etc) but the stumbling block of the DB units not being long enough to permit a safe emergency evacuation into the service tunnel as per the Governmental safety commission was never resolved.

 

Please remember that the design of the tunnel is such that the positive air pressure in the service tunnel is only designed to push smoke a short distance away from the doorway into the running tunnel and thus the train MUST stop with one carriage door in close proximity to said cross passage. Walking 200meters from the train say to the nearest cross passage in a smoke filled ruining tunnel is NOT PERMITTED.

 

As such the DB units would HAVE to be made 312.36 metres long (the length of a 'Regional Eurostar set) as a minimum with a corridor connection THROUGHOUT. (i.e. two units coupled were a no - no).

 

[phil-b259]

On 05/05/2021 at 20:04, adb968008 said:

 

The problem with Birmingham to Paris, is not many people want to go from Paris to Birmingham. Same is true for Paris to Penzance, Brussels to Glasgow etc.. the traffic is all one origin not bi-directional.

 

Paris to Brussels to Amsterdam connects capital cities... traffic travels in volume between each.

Thats why there isnt much of a demand for a Rennes to Rotterdam service either.

 

 

 

Which is precisely why any regional Eurostar offering in the UK needs to allow domestic passengers from Birmingham to London to be able to ride on the leg to London if its to have any hope of being viable!

 

The EU realised this long ago - hence although a Rennes to Rotterdam service might not have much demand with respect to end to end users it is still probably a viable service to run because French domestic users can use it to travel between all calling points in France.

 

Why do you think Cross country still run between Nequay and Newcastle in the summer - I doubt they get a HST full doing the end to end jouney! The reason the thing works is it also can be used by people going between Newcastle and York, York and Birmingham, Birmingham and Bristol, etc, etc.

 

Thats something most Brits still struggle to get their heads round - regional services (as oposed to City - City Express runs like London to Manchester) ARE viable not because of the places at either end - its the places they pass through and the intermediate links they provide.

 

The sum of parts is grater than the whole as the saying goes.

 

Moreover with regard to your Rennes to Rotterdam service lets say a Belgian fancies a trip to Rotterdam  - joining such a service is no more hassle than hopping on a train to somewhere else in Belgium, none of this being processed at some dedicated border station rigmarole which Brits seem so keen on.

 

Granted it doesn't help that the nature of the Channel Tunnel Infrastructure demands long trains with continuous gangways from end to end (I doubt EasyJet would be operating many routes if they were told they could only operate A380 super Jumbos on them) but its not a deal breaker - particularly if you can stop off in London or Paris to add some more international customers to replace the domestic ones in the same way as some transatlantic airlines from the UK to the West coast of the USA used to make a stopover on the east coast of the US first where part of the load would be swapped for domestic US passengers.

 

Hence the point that UK border polices pursued by Governments over the past three decades have effectively vetoed ANY prospect of Eurostar services evolving beyond the 'Capitals' service by enforcing this rigid separation of international and domestic traffic in the name of having 'robust borders'.

 

People can take as much umbridge as they like - the fundamental issues constraining Eurostar are NOT technical or even economic as such. The constraint is Political - the decisions taken by Governments to make themselves look 'tough' as regards our borders and which have been championed by certain elements of the press / certain political groupings have had a lasting effect on limiting International rail travel from ever realising its true commercial and environmental potential,

 

The fact is Schengen has been in place for over two decades now and despite the scaremongering by certain sections of the press there is no factual evidence which shows it to have been materially detrimental to the long term prospects of member states while at the same time boosting the viability of cross border rail services significantly by removing burdensome border controls.

 

The UK cannot expect to somehow replicate the same growth in international rail travel for as long as the 'fortress England' mentality remains the dominant force in politics and society.

Edited May 6, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

On 05/05/2021 at 20:36, lmsforever said:

The thread is an interesting one with many interesting points of view but lets face it EuroStar is nothing to do with GB its the French who should bail it out.

 

Only because George Osbourne sold off the UK Governments share for a quick buck!

 

As with all such sell offs that is a one trick pony and in fact the sate would have got back far more money by keeping hold of it for 40 years and receiving dividend payments!

 

The UK has effectively been asset stripped by such policies which have everything to do with the obsession of a certain political grouping and their media mates in small government and the a financial industry more akin to Las Vegas casinos than responsible banking.

 

And we are not just talking about state enterprises - take a look at the likes of the hostile takeover of Cadbury by Kraft for example which our city obsessed Government let through while in France, Krafts attempts at a hostile takeover of Danome were blocked on 'National Security' grounds precisely because the French value more than just a quick buck.

 

There is more to life than money - its so frustrating and demoralising that the a large chunk of the UK population cannot appreciate that!

 

Consequently some of us believe - like the French and the Belgians, that considering the wider picture and particularly the issue of climate change, the UK has a moral responsibility to ensure Eurostar continues as a going concern and should be supported until passenger numbers have recovered in the same vein as domestic long distance rail operations. I should say that my preference however would be for the UK Government to do that by buying back some of the shares the spiv in number 11 sold off rather than a wad of cash

 

 

 

 

[chrisf]

For me, Eurostar is part of the journey.  I use it to help me travel to and from Switzerland.  By and large I enjoy the experience, though enduring the check-in process and hanging around in the terminal until the sound of bing-bong invites me to join the scrum boarding the train is all too reminiscent of the airlines.  If I fly I do not regard the journey as under way until I am released from the aluminium tube at the end of the flight.  Fortunately we have a choice, or we do when Eurostar is not on its knees.  I hope that a viable way can be found to put it back on its feet.

 

Chris

[Siberian Snooper]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Is it a fixed destination, or a travelcard ?

the old one was a travelcard, so you had 24 hours from arrival in or before departure from Brussels to use the network.

the wording was “Any Belgian Station” on the destination, was great for weekend visits.

 

I think it may be any Belgian station, but it's around 15 months or so ago that I made the booking, before the covid really took off and threw a big spanner in everyone's works.

 

 

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Moreover with regard to your Rennes to Rotterdam service lets say a Belgian fancies a trip to Rotterdam  - joining such a service is no more hassle than hopping on a train to somewhere else in Belgium, none of this being processed at some dedicated border station rigmarole which Brits seem so keen on.

 

...

 

The UK cannot expect to somehow replicate the same growth in international rail travel for as long as the 'fortress England' mentality remains the dominant force in politics and society.

Cross country in the UK doesnt necessarily translate into UK europe services.

Eurostar did try a London, Ashford, Calais, Lilke Brussels stopper... but reality passengers hated it, as a slow service.. not many were travelling between Calais and Ashford.

 

The passengers were going Paris / Brussels to London and wanted to go fast.

so thats just how it is, to make a profit.

 

Europeans share land borders for centuries, family connections exist between political borders, so its very likely a family near Antwerp has family in Netherlands and France and travel between.

 

That connection doesn't exist to the same extent here, as we are an island, but obviously those connections do exist within the UK, thus making cross country viable.

 

Like it or not we are a natural fortress, surrounded by water, even if there was no customs borders, people wont just decide to move from Birmingham to Lille just because they can... Since the EU opened its borders, continentals have travelled much than we have because they have reason, and a car to do it.. British have exploited it in the last 20 years, but Europeans have been doing it for centuries.  Unless your in the South East, its very unlikely to be a day out.

 

Do you seriously think a Birmingham -Koln  service stopping at Coventry, Milton Keynes, Ashford, Calais, Brussels, Leuven and Liege would make sense and be better than the SNCB / Eurostar / Avanti services doing the same ?
How many people really have ties between Coventry and Leuven to justify it ? Conversely the ties between Coventry and Milton Keynes would be much higher.

 

I do recall the HS1 argument failed and was quietly forgotten, is the exact same argument being used for HS2... A Calais Terminal was supposed to encourage commuting from Calais to London for work, offering a cheaper/better lifestyle... That died a death as it was too expensive, and too far in emergencies, strikes or service failures. Immigration has nothing to do with it.. immigration is calais is sizable, takes minutes and is empty.. there are no cultural (family) ties making people want to move there...and so Eurostar ceased stopping...

I suspect similar plans in Birmingham may similarly fail... people dont want to commute, they do want to be near family and city to city travel is business.

Edited May 7, 2021 by adb968008

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

There isn't a problem per say - but transiting that hub will take time which is a disincentive to use the service.

 

Humans like point to point journeys - not phafing around making changes. Its why the south London rail network has been dominated by a low service frequency to many different London termi and any attempt to simplify things bought howls of protest by regular commuters.

 

In the Beeching era it was suggested that when a branch line closed people would drive to the nearest mainline railhead - in reality they didn't! They drove all the way to where they wanted to go bypassing the whole 'connecting' process

 

We also see it in the airline world where even before Covid airlines were getting rid of large capacity planes based on a 'hub and spoke' service pattern in favour of lower capacity planes flying direct.

 

We also see its effects when rail replacement buses have to be used and passengers are forced to break their journey - ridership is significantly down compared to an equivalent time period when through services are available.

 

Therefore making people alight and be processed at Lille will permanently constrain Eurostars ability to generate more and more passengers over time - unlike French TGV or German ICE services where such processing is not required thanks to the EU Schengen scheme. Yes in time what might be termed 'Capitals' traffic will return and will no doubt be sufficient to support a reasonable service frequency, but any hopes of growing the reach of Eurostar further into the regions beyond will continually be throttled by current UK border policies

 

 

 

At the moment in the UK we have St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Clearly these stations especially Ashford could be used more

 

Like wise on the way to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam and Lille. The infrastructure is there

 

The Red Arrow in Italy is a very fast service between Turin and Venice stops at Milan and several other places but still on the part I traveled did 300k per hour. TGV trains likewise stop during their journeys. 

 

I guess in theory I could catch a train through to Ashford by changing platforms, go through customs at Ashford and Lille, change platforms and do the same using TGV and the Italian equivalent and end up in Venice, perhaps staying overnight in Chambury (there is an excellent hotel across the road from the station).

 

Computer software could work out the route and costa easily, just needs the willingness to do it. Much the same as Eurotunnel using a hub either side of the tunnel 

[APOLLO]

Couldn't they run the old Pacers through the tunnel ?

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Couldn't they run the old Pacers through the tunnel ?

8x pacers tied together, plenty of doors, all stations Manchester to Milan.. 48 hour journey.

 

Each pacer painted a different union flag colour.

Substitute the fiat factory roof for the hump shunt yards near Rotterdam

 

Sounds like the self preservation society annual jolly.

 

 

closest we’ll see to a Glasgow Brussels commuter service...

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Class 156 502 loading on ferry 1989.jpg

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/156 502 in Belgium.jpg
 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Cross country in the UK doesnt necessarily translate into UK europe services.

Eurostar did try a London, Ashford, Calais, Lilke Brussels stopper... but reality passengers hated it, as a slow service.. not many were travelling between Calais and Ashford.

 

 

Again anything Eurostar has done so far has been hobnailed by UK border rules!

 

Naturally London - Paris passengers are not going to appreciate the slower journey calling at all intermediate stations - but you avoid that by not having them on the train in the first place!

 

Instead you fill your stopping train with London to Ashford Domestic passengers (which is what the French do for Eurostar services between Paris and Lille) who will actually have a need for the stop.

 

Except Eurostar can't because UK border rules prevent it!

 

 

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Do you seriously think a Birmingham -Koln  service stopping at Coventry, Milton Keynes, Ashford, Calais, Brussels, Leuven and Liege would make sense and be better than the SNCB / Eurostar / Avanti services doing the same ?
How many people really have ties between Coventry and Leuven to justify it ? Conversely the ties between Coventry and Milton Keynes would be much higher.

 

 

You are still missing the point - we are not talking about a stopping train only for the use of international bound passengers!

 

A Birmingham to Amsterdam calling at Coventry Milton Keynes Stratford and Ashford Lille Brussels and Amsterdam may well have been viable if domestic passengers within the UK could use it to get from Birmingham to London (Stratford) or Coventry to Ashford.

 

Its only the British with their 'fortress island' mentality that persist in the 'international passengers only' rule - why is it so hard to appreciate that this is a serious barrier to the viability of international rail services. Just imagine if cross country did not allow passengers to join said Newcastle to Newquay at intermediate stations - because THAT is the REALITY of what current UK border polices are forcing to happen with respect to Eurostar.

 

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Like it or not we are a natural fortress, surrounded by water, even if there was no customs borders, people wont just decide to move from Birmingham to Lille just because they can... Since the EU opened its borders, continentals have travelled much than we have because they have reason, and a car to do it.. British have exploited it in the last 20 years, but Europeans have been doing it for centuries.  Unless your in the South East, its very unlikely to be a day out.

 

 

This is indeed true - but even with the difficulties that and the language barrier more integration is possible. That is the premiss behind the four Freedoms the EU holds dear - namely that over time (and we are talking decades here not a couple of years) divisions between nation states would be come less and more people would be able to build cross border relationships - be it business or social ones. Eurostar, as with all international rail travel has the perfect opportunity to facilitate those links if Governments removes border barriers and are willing to nurture such such cross border relationships (The UK funding and taking part in the Erasmus scheme being an example aimed at  nurturing such relationships at a young age).

 

Now the UK population are of course free to reject this vision (as they have done) via the ballot box - but at the same time they (and the right wing press barons / political parties) shouldn't' pretend its not a conscious decision and one without profound consequences.

 

You cannot on the one hand complain about the lack of regional Eurostar services but at the same time demand stringent border rules (the very exsistance of which prevent such regional services being remotely viable) just as you cannot complain about that lack of fishing deals with Norway, etc now that we have withdrawn from the EU, yet at the same time refuse to acknowledge that its precisely 'taking back control' that has caused the problem.

Edited May 7, 2021 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

At the moment in the UK we have St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Clearly these stations especially Ashford could be used more

 

Like wise on the way to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam and Lille. The infrastructure is there

 

 

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I guess in theory I could catch a train through to Ashford by changing platforms, go through customs at Ashford and Lille, change platforms and do the same using TGV and the Italian equivalent and end up in Venice, perhaps staying overnight in Chambury (there is an excellent hotel across the road from the station).

 

 

Which is still a phaf

 

Surveys of people doing long journeys by Cross Country are quite illuminating in this regard - it can quite often be quicker to travel via London from say Newcastle to Bristol, but people wanting to make a journey - participially those with luggage chose cross country precisely because they can stay on a single train throughout!

 

The more changes, the more hanging about the less attractive a mode of transport becomes and particularly if the journey is leisure related, many folk simply won't bother.

 

Folk travelling for business may be more resistant to changing trains and undergoing border processing mid journey, but even so their will be a temptation to simply fly or drive as its perceived as 'easier' - and as I said before attempts to simplify the south London suburban service pattern to a 'one line one termi' principle has normally bought howls of protest from commuters.

 

With distances grater than 4 hours travel time always being quicker by plane, mega long rail journeys have to compete on other grounds - and the ability to not have to change and lug bags around is a distinct advantage a through rail service can use to regain ground on planes. The more intermediate changes (and the worry of missed connections) the less attractive the train becomes.

 

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

Surveys of people doing long journeys by Cross Country are quite illuminating in this regard - it can quite often be quicker to travel via London from say Newcastle to Bristol, but people wanting to make a journey - participially those with luggage chose cross country precisely because they can stay on a single train throughout!

 

 

And yet despite that exact purpose - to give direct services avoiding lugging stuff across London, Cross Country are the least 'Inter City' inter city trains - cramped, no tables and before Covid generally over full in the central sections between Manchester/Sheffield and Reading/Bristol.

 

Given an option I would avoid Cross Country when I can, for example if I go to Warley, I've learnt to go via Warrington and get a direct service on a Pendolino despite them stopping for like 20 minutes at Wolverhampton - at least I don't need to go Cross Country from Manchester and then fight my way through New Street onto a West Midlands 350.  I used to travel to Weston-Super-Mare, there is a direct there and back service meaning I can go, do a 2 hour meeting and return but the chance I will find my reserved seat taken on the return is high and I am likely fighting for space.  I once actually ended up childminding because a lady dumped two of her children in front of me in seats reserved for others and I then had to actually tell an older couple they couldn't claim their reserved seats because the mother of the children wasn't even in the same carriage.

 

No I don't like Cross Country at all.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And yet despite that exact purpose - to give direct services avoiding lugging stuff across London, Cross Country are the least 'Inter City' inter city trains - cramped, no tables and before Covid generally over full in the central sections between Manchester/Sheffield and Reading/Bristol.

 

Given an option I would avoid Cross Country when I can, for example if I go to Warley, I've learnt to go via Warrington and get a direct service on a Pendolino despite them stopping for like 20 minutes at Wolverhampton - at least I don't need to go Cross Country from Manchester and then fight my way through New Street onto a West Midlands 350.  I used to travel to Weston-Super-Mare, there is a direct there and back service meaning I can go, do a 2 hour meeting and return but the chance I will find my reserved seat taken on the return is high and I am likely fighting for space.  I once actually ended up childminding because a lady dumped two of her children in front of me in seats reserved for others and I then had to actually tell an older couple they couldn't claim their reserved seats because the mother of the children wasn't even in the same carriage.

 

No I don't like Cross Country at all.

 

Agreed, but we are talking principles of operation here  - not the details of the rolling stock currently stock used by the XC TOC!

 

You could quite easily replace the XC stock with something else and even enhance the infrastructure without any need to change the laws of the land - the same is not true of Eurostar (indeed any other potential operator of international Rail services in the UK).

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

Naturally London - Paris passengers are not going to appreciate the slower journey calling at all intermediate stations - but you avoid that by not having them on the train in the first place!

 

Instead you fill your stopping train with London to Ashford Domestic passengers (which is what the French do for Eurostar services between Paris and Lille) who will actually have a need for stop.

 

You are still missing the point - we are not talking about a stopping train only for the use of international bound passengers!

 

You cannot on the one hand complain about the lack of regional Eurostar services but at the same time demand stringent border rules (the very exsistance of which prevent such regional services being remotely viable) 

I think your missing the commercial aspect of it...

 

what makes more revenue.. 500 * £200 passengers travelling London to Paris, or 500 * £30 passengers going from St Pancras to Ashford, followed by an near ECS to Calais with a few hardy's picking seats after Ashford, then a bunch of locals from Calais to Lille for £15 each ?

Filling Eurostar to standing with domestics, slows down the intercity service aspect, loses revenue.

 

All the major train companies do the same, separate Intercity from Suburban.. stopping an Azuma all Stations to Peterborough really doesnt help, neither would it help Eurostar.

There is a solution already in place... it's called South Eastern High Speed on this side of the channel and OuiGo TGV on the other.

 

Even if there was no baggage checks or immigration, Eurostars business model is built on point to point... not city to city, it's competition is air travel, not a class 375.

 

You also destroy yoiur own point of XC, by saying going indirect via London is faster.. XC is a Long Distance commuter, not an express service... 

 

I think the only missed service today that might just have been a viable option was for a low budget long distance sleeper from London to Eastern Europe, splitting in Germany and running on the back of domestic services to Warsaw, Krakow and Budapest, given the huge numbers of travellers on this route who use road coaches to London today, though that window has passed in 2016.

 

Using immigration as a rant for why it cant be done doesnt hide the fact that it's pointless to do it anyway.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by adb968008