GWR Autocoach operation.

[KeithMacdonald]

Did the auto collect the milk wagons from the siding while passengers were onboard?

[chrisf]

7 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Did the auto collect the milk wagons from the siding while passengers were onboard?

 

I doubt it.  If an auto was required to attach tanks in the siding it would have had to shunt across from the down platform to the up.  Most would have started back to Plymouth from the down platform, for which manoeuvre the signals allowed.

 

Chris

[chrisf]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

An old  hand Canton driver in the 70s claimed that he'd never seen the gear attached and that most of the time he drove from the loco, only used the front cab when there were 2 trailers, and worked the train by handsignalling the fireman.  I'm sure all this hppened when orforitee was not around,, and he could always go through the motions, literally, of using the regulator handle if he aware of being spotted, but I think he was having me on a bit...

 

He must have been a very old hand.  Canton had no auto work after 1953.

 

Chris

[Tankerman]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

I thought that Miss Prism's photo depicted the railtour of May 1960 until I spotted the milk tank.  It was taken at Saltash.  If that was a service train it would have taken some shunting to put the tank into the milk depot siding, which trailed into the other platform.

 

Chris 

 

Chris,

 

Looking at the diagram in Miss Prism's post would the shunting move with the milk tank at the rear be as follows?

 

Move ahead on the down line when the shunting arm is set to off until the milk tank clears the trailing crossover. Then when the points have been set for the crossing movement, reversing, with the single slip set as a diamond crossing, so that the milk tank is placed in the loop.

 

After the milk tank is detached the auto set moves back on to the down line so that the single slip can be set to act as a crossover and then reverses onto the up line and moves forward until it clears the trailing point at the western end of the up platform. When that point is set for the siding it reverses into the loop, the milk tank is coupled and it moves forward again onto the up line, the loop point then being set for the milk siding and the milk tank placed in the siding.

 

The auto set then moves forward to the up platform allowing the, probably very confused, passengers to board for the trip to North Road. As you say a very complicated shunting move.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Tankerman
coupling and uncoupling mixed up

[Blandford1969]

6 hours ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

I think there was an electric bell system. 

Yes, there is a bell you can ring from the coach driving end that rings the ATC bell in the cab. 

 

In terms of the mechanical linkage there can be quite a bit of wear. You can be in notch three in the coach and bearing in first valve on the engine!

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Couldn't the two sets have been coupled loco end to loco end?  Firemen on locos, one driver at leading loco end only?  Probably need 2 drivers to keep unions happy though.

 

Running two SRM sets coupled could just about be economical if it had to be split into two trains for separate destinations which both desired a through service (big town to the junction, two branches thence).  Not worth the bother unless pathing was an issue, but seems unlikely in the West - I could see pathing maybe as an issue on the Taff Vale with a lot of coal traffic

No, as the SRMs had no auto linkage that could be coupled at the engine ends, and even if they had, cab ends could bot be coupled with the cabs facing each other because the auto gear sockets were offset to the side, not central.  Pathing was an issue at peak times on the Royal Albert, a single line speed restricted section so main line passenger and long freights took a long time to clear on to the double tracks each side of the bridge. 
 

The Plymouth area auto trains developed into 4 coach sandwiches using 64xx locos, which lasted until replaced by dmus. 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 

Chris,

 

Looking at the diagram in Miss Prism's post would the shunting move with the milk tank at the rear be as follows?

 

Move ahead on the down line when the shunting arm is set to off until the milk tank clears the trailing crossover. Then when the points have been set for the crossing movement, reversing, with the single slip set as a diamond crossing, so that the milk tank is placed in the loop.

 

After the milk tank is detached the auto set moves back on to the down line so that the single slip can be set to act as a crossover and then reverses onto the up line and moves forward until it clears the trailing point at the western end of the up platform. When that point is set for the siding it reverses into the loop, the milk tank is coupled and it moves forward again onto the up line, the loop point then being set for the milk siding and the milk tank placed in the siding.

 

The auto set then moves forward to the up platform allowing the, probably very confused, passengers to board for the trip to North Road. As you say a very complicated shunting move.

The diagram Miss P posted was the 1910 'box diagram although basically that would have been the moves as it was of course necessary to run round the tank in order to position although it migh have been hand-barred from the Up siidings to the loading dock without using the train to shunt it.  However it would undoubtedly have been easier to shunt the milk tank once it was on the Up side by using the auto train.

 

However the layout and signalling at Saltash was altered in 1943 although the single slip had probably been replaced by a diamond crossing with a separate trailing crossover provided to the east of it some time before then (Cooke suggests by 1923).  The Down Starting signal was moved a considerable distance westwards in the 1943 signalling alterations so the Shunt Ahead subsidiary arm was not replicated on the new signl.  The moves would have been basically the same but shunting across to No.1 Siding via the diamond and then subsequently using the trailing crossover to reach the Up Line if the train was to then shunt on that side.

 

As far as formation and loads were concerned the GWR and BR WR Instruction was that no more than two vehicles, which had to have the control rod connected through them to the engine, were to be propelled in an auto train.  The number of vehicles behind the engine was limited only by the relevant maximum permissible load for an auto train over the section of route over which the train was running.    Auto train loads for specific types of engine were lower than the load they were permitted when working a hauled train.

 

Tha maximum permssible load depended on the steepness of rising gradients over the section - for example the steepest risiong gradient between Plymouth North Road and Saltash was a siort stretch of 1 in 59 leading to a stretch of 1 in 62 and using the 1 in 60 permitted weight that would allow a load of 150 tones between North Road and Saltash for a 64XX tank.  In the opposite direction there was a stretch of 1 in 68 climbing up pasy Keyham so it is possible the 1 in 60 load again had to be applied but if experience had shown otherwise possibly the 1 in 80 load of 180 tons might have been allowed (a loaded milk tank was rated at 28 tons for load calculation purposes).  

[The Johnster]

16 hours ago, chrisf said:

 

He must have been a very old hand.  Canton had no auto work after 1953.

 

Chris

He was; he was talking about firing experiences. 

[Karhedron]

21 hours ago, chrisf said:

Yes.  The auto is in the down platform.  The milk depot post-dates the plan and is/was approximately where the dock is. 

 

I believe there was never an actual milk depot at the station. Milk was loaded into road tanks and driven up the hill to Saltash station from Daws creamery which was located lower down on what is now Old Ferry Road.

 

The photo below shows a peak into the goods yard in the 60s with a rake of milk tankers in residence. They are just parked on the siding by loading dock with no actual building visible. I have seen a clearer shot with a tanker lorry present as well but it is not online.

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p420591422/hBA3AAA0E#hba3aaa0e

[chrisf]

Thanks, Matt.  I have no reason at all to doubt what you say!

 

Something that I forgot was that the loaded tanks were taken to Plymouth where the milk train was remarshalled and the Saltash tanks added.

 

Chris

[Karhedron]

Yes, tanks from Lifton were also added at Plymouth IIRC. 

[The Johnster]

Another place where milk was brought in road tankers from a nearby dairy was Marshfield on the South Wales Main Line between Newport and Cardiff.  The passenger station closed around 1960 and the platforms were cleared away but the erstwhile goods yard, two mileage sidings accessed by a ground frame after MAS was installed, was used by Cambrian Dairies' depot about 500 yards up the road towards the village.   The site was later used as a car park for the nearby 'Port of Call' pub. 

 

I was the guard on the per way train that recovered the trailing crossover at this site, about 1972. 

[hartleymartin]

I would think the reason why a single auto-trailer would be attached at the bunker end would be to make it easier to clean the smokebox out between runs if there were a build-up of ash/soot.