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How big a Layout will the NCE Powercab be suitable for?


Tallpaul69
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How big a Layout will a NCE Powercab be suitable for?

I am looking to use a NCE Powercab on an end to end layout 12ft x 2ft 6ins with 11 electofrog points plus juicers and running up to 12 locos - (10 on tick over and 2 running) .

However I intend to link this to a 12ft x 4ft twin track round and round layout with 30 electrofrog points plus juicersand holding a further 16 locos of which 2 will be running. This could have its own NCE plus standard power panel.

At a later date a 4 line fiddle yard might be added in parallel with one side of the 12ft round and round layout holding two trains each, plus a further shunting yard with 6 sidings. 

I will have a further NCE Handset that could be plugged into the second socket in either power panel. I was thinking of using this to control the points and accessories.(end to end is wired to allow this.

 

I have only used my existing NCE on a test/programming track.

A friend with more experience of use of the NCE has suggested I need a more powerful controller for the end to end and I therefore presume also for the round and round?

 

Many thanks

Regards

Paul

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Not being in any sense an expert,  my experience is with a layout very similar to yours : 56 points, signals, alpha switch panels and 2 handsets etc . I found the power levels quite adequate with the PowerCab system.  The big problem I found is the limit on cab addresses, nos of cabs, macro numbers : 16 only. I was having to think very carefully if I could use a mini panel or  another Alpha Encoder Unit. 

Having convinced myself I could afford it, I upgraded to the 5 amp Probox just before Xmas. Though very expensive but as you don't need to buy extra Cabs, it kept the cost down. 

Wow what luxury!  63 input devices, 250 macros...it's a brand new world. I did research it quite carefully and chatted to my local supplier (Digitrains) who were very helpful.

Cheers and best of luck!

 

 

 

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You can upgrade a PowerCab as & when you feel you need to.

Upgrading a PowerCab is not wasteful. I have a PowerPro & when I looked at the upgrade costs, it was no cheaper than upgrading my PowerCab with the components I would have needed to upgrade this to provide the same functionality.

If the amount of current drawn is an issue, enable the PowerCab's ammeter function & you will see how much you are drawing.

 

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The size and scope of the layout is largely immaterial. You simply divide the layout into sections, known as Power Districts, and add a booster and short-circuit protection to each. A single throttle will control a train anywhere on the layout. Point motors, whether snap or slo-mo, are best powered from a separate supply. Juicers do not of themselves use any current - they simply direct it to this rail or that. 

 

What is important on a large layout is how many trains you expect to be running at one time. Trust me, your brain will quickly run out of scope if you try to actually control more than a couple at once. Less of a problem for the continuous run, but quite challenging on end-to-end sections.

 

This is why some people opt for automation, although that doesn't interest me. 

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MERG offer an alternative route if you're up for assembling some electronic kits from reasonable instructions.

 

You can (and should in my opinion) as Ian says divide the layout up into power districts each with their own short circuit protection.

 

You can (and really should use) a separate accessory bus if you intend the "digitise" your points and signals and control them through accessory decoders although personally I find tactile ("analogue") switches a better/easier to operate option.

 

Keep an eye on a certain Internet auction site for used PowerPros or Smart Boosters e.g. an SB5, as that will do for starters and then you can add further boosters as required. Our club uses a PowerPro as the basis with six Power Districts on its O gauge layout. We use one booster to feed two power districts with each having their own short circuit protection.

 

You can have any number of plug-in panels around the layout and have as many PowerCab/PowerPros as you want buying extras when you feel you need them.

 

I'm about to PM you.

 

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13 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

How big a Layout will a NCE Powercab be suitable for?

I am looking to use a NCE Powercab on an end to end layout 12ft x 2ft 6ins with 11 electofrog points plus juicers and running up to 12 locos - (10 on tick over and 2 running) .

However I intend to link this to a 12ft x 4ft twin track round and round layout with 30 electrofrog points plus juicersand holding a further 16 locos of which 2 will be running. This could have its own NCE plus standard power panel.

At a later date a 4 line fiddle yard might be added in parallel with one side of the 12ft round and round layout holding two trains each, plus a further shunting yard with 6 sidings. 

I will have a further NCE Handset that could be plugged into the second socket in either power panel. I was thinking of using this to control the points and accessories.(end to end is wired to allow this.

 

I have only used my existing NCE on a test/programming track.

A friend with more experience of use of the NCE has suggested I need a more powerful controller for the end to end and I therefore presume also for the round and round?

 

Many thanks

Regards

Paul

If you upgrade the power input to 18V regulated, rather than the weak NCE supplied supply, that will help a lot. As Dudders says, running more than two trains at the same time if on your own, is enough to test the Brain! Just for info, my layout is mainline twin track with platform loops, two yards and a short branch which is, in fact, another long loop! There are 7 FY loops that are bi directional. All the points are operated by DC supplied motors of various types and switching so it is/will be like a 'signal box' . I have two Juicers for FY entry/exits.  I run two main line trains and often have half a dozen other loco's sitting on the tracks. I do not have genuine Power Districts but I do have 2amp Circuit protection. It isn't an exhibition layout. It is 24' long and 8' wide approximately & roundy roundy. The draw on the Controller with two loco's running with heavy trains is around 1amp. 

This works for me and even if there were a third train running on the branch I believe I still have plenty of power. As Dudds suggests, doing the points and signals from another source (DC in my case with switches) really helps. I actually would find setting Macros far too tedious and my Brain wouldn't cope. 

this system works for me. However I may invest in a 5amp Booster for the system but you really do need to ensure you have very good short circuit protection with that amount of Amps.....how do I know this?????

I am sure others will have much more sophisticated ideas but I have to say mine seems robust and it works for me as I am hopeless with trickery and my set up, although a bit chaotic, seems relatively easy for tracing any glitch.

Hope that helps?

Phil

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On 22/01/2021 at 22:29, Tallpaul69 said:

....However I intend to link this to a 12ft x 4ft twin track round and round layout with 30 electrofrog points plus juicersand holding a further 16 locos of which 2 will be running. This could have its own NCE plus standard power panel......

 

.....I will have a further NCE Handset that could be plugged into the second socket in either power panel......

 


Sorry if it’s just poor wording on your part, Paul, but I’m slightly concerned with the wording I’ve highlighted in bold, in the above quotes from your OP.

There are two types of panel that can be used with a PowerCab, but you can only use one PCP ( the one that comes with a PowerCab).

Any others would really need to be the UTP type (unless you modify the intended use of another PCP).

Neither is a “power panel” as such.

 

 

.
 

 

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21 hours ago, Ray H said:

........if you intend the "digitise" your points and signals and control them through accessory decoders although personally I find tactile ("analogue") switches a better/easier to operate option.....

 


Ray, there’s  no reason why you can’t use “tactile” switches with “digitised” operation of points and signals.

The best of both worlds if you prefer to use switches, buttons, physical mimic panels, mini point lever frames, etc, to control points and signals via DCC.

 

21 hours ago, Ray H said:

.....We use one booster to feed two power districts ......


Isn’t that a contradiction?

 

21 hours ago, Ray H said:

.....with each having their own short circuit protection......


Two sub- districts of the same Power District?

 

 

.

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The club's O gauge layout uses a PowerPro as the command station. The track power output is then taken to two MERG boosters and the track power output from those is fed into four MERG short circuit protection devises which guard over the track power to the four track Power Districts, The track power output from the PowerPro is also fed into two further MERG short circuit protection devices one of which powers a little used track Power District and the other the Accessory bus.

 

Apologies for the poor wording previously.

 

My reference to digital devices was meant to be interpreted as controlled by dcc accessory decoders whereas the analogue option doesn't touch the dcc element of the layout at all.

 

To the best of my knowledge other than a computer and/or some other possibly quite expensive kit I don't believe that you can use switches and the like to control points and signals that are powered via dcc accessory decoders. You can of course usually control signals and points powered via dcc accessory decoders through the throttle handset by addressing the relevant accessory decoder.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ray H said:

The club's O gauge layout uses a PowerPro as the command station. The track power output is then taken to two MERG boosters and the track power output from those is fed into four MERG short circuit protection devises which guard over the track power to the four track Power Districts, The track power output from the PowerPro is also fed into two further MERG short circuit protection devices one of which powers a little used track Power District and the other the Accessory bus.

 

Apologies for the poor wording previously.

 

My reference to digital devices was meant to be interpreted as controlled by dcc accessory decoders whereas the analogue option doesn't touch the dcc element of the layout at all.

 

To the best of my knowledge other than a computer and/or some other possibly quite expensive kit I don't believe that you can use switches and the like to control points and signals that are powered via dcc accessory decoders. You can of course usually control signals and points powered via dcc accessory decoders through the throttle handset by addressing the relevant accessory decoder.

 

 

Last paragraph - you need to look around at stuff which is readily available and not overly expensive.

 

NCE kit, which plugs into the PowerPro mentioned above, includes the "MiniPanel" and the "AIU" device.   The MiniPanel  (sub £40) uses push buttons (or other switches) as inputs, and issues instructions to the PowerPro to control the layout.  That contral can be throwing turnouts, or operating routes (or it can be operating locos).   
Works alongside the NCE handsets - so the user has a choice:  throttle handset, or physical buttons on a panel, issuing the same commands to layout.  (And it also works alongside a computer doing the same).

 

MERG based CBUS systems offer devices which allow the same.  As do Loconet based systems (Digitrax, Uhlenbrock, Roco, Digikeijs, etc.).  And Lenz.   

 

 

It is unfortunate that some people are stuck with the idea of typing complex commands into DCC handsets as the only way to control DCC accessory devices, when many makers have alternatives. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

 

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Hi Ray.

I'm seconding what Nigel has just said.

The ability to use physical switches, buttons, point levers etc, (note even stud and probe can be adapted !) to activated DCC commands to operate accessories, such as point and signals, has been available for years.

 

As Nigel said, it's unfortunate that some people are stuck with the idea that you are restricted to typing commands into DCC handsets as the only way to control DCC accessory devices.

There is no such limitation.

 

Ron

 

.

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24 minutes ago, Ray H said:

....The track power output is then taken to two MERG boosters and the track power output from those is fed into four MERG short circuit protection devises which guard over the track power to the four track Power Districts, 

The track power output from the PowerPro is also fed into two further MERG short circuit protection devices one of which powers a little used track Power District and the other the Accessory bus.

 

There are only 3 Power Districts with that architecture....

one fed from the internal booster in the PowerPro

and another 2 fed from each of the additional boosters.

You have 6 sub-districts.

 

 

.

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The points that I was trying to make was that you can buy a few switches, some wire and you have the older dc way of controlling points and signals through said switches or the electric pencil system to name a couple of schemes.

 

Controlling points and signals by dcc based accessory decoders adds further expense whether you control them via the throttle keypad, the Mini-Panel (or other make's equivalents) or computers to name but a couple of ways. Some of these ways allow you to use switches/levers etc. if that's the way you want to go.

 

Even the MERG CBUS scheme involves extra cost over which probably works out dearer than the yards of wire that it can replace.

 

Apologies for the incorrect terminology - Power Districts v Sub (Power) Districts. 

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2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

It is unfortunate that some people are stuck with the idea of typing complex commands into DCC handsets as the only way to control DCC accessory devices, when many makers have alternatives. 

I agree.

 

I use the very tactile but very simple approach of a touch screen displaying a panel representing the layout to control turnouts and other accessories. The rats nest of wiring required for the analog approach is something I'm very glad to be rid of.

 

Mike.

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  • 5 months later...

So folks, what in January was in the future, is now reality!

The end to end is of slightly different dimensions to what I originally stated, and is called Wycombe End, the 12ft x 4ft recently delivered is called Bradenham, and more details of each can be found on my thread "Lower Thames Yard". The link between the two is still to be made, although as the physical distance is only some 8 inches of double track, I might even get to make this bit myself!

 

I hope to devote this thread to the technical side of both layouts, while Lower Thames Yard will concentrate on the operational and scenic side of both.

 

Best regards

Paul    

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