Alan Gibson VS. Rumney Models 17’6” x 9’ Brass uframe kit

[niteshadex]

Thanks to my OCD, I am on a mission to replace ALL of my plastic underframes of my rolling stock with brass ones. Rumney models has an excellent selection of underframe kits. I just ordered the Alan Gibson 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe kit (4mm scale) but noticed Rumney models makes the same uframe. I have 3 question.

 

1: does anyone know which of the 2 is “better”, and by “better” I mean more detailed and easier to work with

 

2: does anyone know of more companies that make brass uframes in 4mm other than Rumney, Gibson, and brassmasters?

 

3: what would be the best way to cut off the plastic uframes from already-built parkside/cambrian/Slaters/ect kits? A dremel maybe?

[Fen End Pit]

Sounds like you are taking a lot on there.

 

The Rumney chassis are superb, just be aware that each one will take many, many hours to do justice to. The Gibson and Brassmaster's chassis are different beasts they will do a creditable job but for considerably less work. The results might not be as detailed but you will get a lot of wagons quicker. I believe the Brassmaster's units are designed to fit inside the plastic frames.

 

The other option would be some of the Bill Bedford chassis kits sold by Eileen's. They are also relatively easy to build.

 

I think in most cases you should be able to get existing frames off a built kit with a bit of scalpel work. Modifying existing underframes to fit W-iron types only is hard . The big problem being that the frames end up so thin where the W-iron sits.

 

Good luck!

David

[brossard]

Don't know how many wagons you have but you are entering something that could be quite expensive.

 

I have seen the work from Rumney models and I would go for those.

 

You could also look at Bill Bedford for Underframes, sprung W irons and brake gear. 

 

https://www.eileensemporium.com/materials-for-modellers/category/bill-bedford-models

 

Wizard Models carry the ex Mainly Trains range of etches which are really good.

 

Getting the underframe off an already built wagon will likely do a lot of damage.  My suggestion is to sell off your old wagons (if feasible) and start building new ones.

 

John

[Kempenfelt]

Niteshadex

 

I'll be open from the start here in that Justin is a good friend of mine and I can usually be found assisting on the Rumney Models stand. I choose to help not only because Justin is a friend but also because I have full faith in the products and have found that Justin's chassis are those which are best suited to my own need's.

 

I haven't had experience of the Alan Gibson chassis before so I can't fairly comment on a comparison between the two. I have however had experience of several others. I'll talk through other options shortly, but I will also mention that these will be limited depending on the stock that you model.

 

So as to your options, as well as the two mentioned there are also the following that you could consider. These are one's that I either have experience of or I'm aware of.

 

Dave Bradwell - LNER chassis, BR 20T brakevan chassis

Craig Welsh - RCH PO Chassis's, available from Scalefour Stores

Masokits - various RCH brake gear, SR CCT chassis 

Bill Bedford - various (I have built a BR 16T chassis)

Brian Morgan - GWR chassis available from Scalefour Stores

Brassmasters - RCH PO Chassis's

 

Generally we have a small range of suppliers and as a result, any duplication is generally limited. Instead each trader tends to be respective of other ranges and either do something different or provide a different approach. So as to my own opinions, I lean towards the Rumney Models, Dave Bradwell and Craig Welsh products. The RCH PO chassis is the one area where there is some duplication, for this area I can fully recommend the Craig Welsh chassis. I really like the way the brake gear folds up as one piece and locates in the chassis. The Masokits equivalent have a high level of detail, but the individual parts which require pinning and the hand drawn vs CAD artwork does in my opinion does make the assembly process a bit more fiddly. I can't comment on the Brassmasters offering as I've already agreed to standardise on Craig's chassis's where applicable.

 

So having started with your second question, I'll go back to your first. There are many positives for the Rumney chassis's, Justin test build's all his etches before they're released, he's spent several years developing a standard assembly process that features across all his kits, so once you've built one you're already prepped for how the next will go together, there are some very detailed instructions that are available to read and download at no expense (I can fully recommend that you read these before deciding whether this route is suited to your build style and level of skill), they've all been developed on CAD using the latest design techniques so don't suffer from faults in the design work (incorrect allowances for fold lines, misaligned holes etc). So what negatives can I say? Not a lot really, apart from the build time and perhaps delicacy. So, don't expect to build a chassis in a couple of hours! Recognise that you need to be gentle, if you're heavy on the solder or struggle with tiny drill bits or tiny fold lines, then these probably aren't the kits for you. However this will also apply to probably all etched chassis's, no matter how good or bad they are!

 

On to your third and final question, I would advise a piercing or razor saw for both the control and accuracy. I'd then finish off with a sharp scalpel and files. The big problem with a Dremmel is the speed at which things can go wrong if you slip or make a mistake. The other issue I've found is keeping the Dremmel under control if it snags or bites the material and can whip the model away from your secure grasp. You're also more likely to take a chunk out of yourself!

 

 So to summarise, the Rumney Models kits would be my go to chassis no matter whether you're a novice or a seasoned modeller, they're very well designed, fully tested, and highly accurate. If a novice, start with one of the more simple chassis's like the single sided 16T etch.

 

I hope that is useful and informative. Good luck with your experiments, it's worth trying several options even if just to establish what works for you and what doesn't. Finally have fun!

 

Paul

 

 

[niteshadex]

18 hours ago, Kempenfelt said:

Niteshadex

 

I'll be open from the start here in that Justin is a good friend of mine and I can usually be found assisting on the Rumney Models stand. I choose to help not only because Justin is a friend but also because I have full faith in the products and have found that Justin's chassis are those which are best suited to my own need's.

 

I haven't had experience of the Alan Gibson chassis before so I can't fairly comment on a comparison between the two. I have however had experience of several others. I'll talk through other options shortly, but I will also mention that these will be limited depending on the stock that you model.

 

So as to your options, as well as the two mentioned there are also the following that you could consider. These are one's that I either have experience of or I'm aware of.

 

Dave Bradwell - LNER chassis, BR 20T brakevan chassis

Craig Welsh - RCH PO Chassis's, available from Scalefour Stores

Masokits - various RCH brake gear, SR CCT chassis 

Bill Bedford - various (I have built a BR 16T chassis)

Brian Morgan - GWR chassis available from Scalefour Stores

Brassmasters - RCH PO Chassis's

 

Generally we have a small range of suppliers and as a result, any duplication is generally limited. Instead each trader tends to be respective of other ranges and either do something different or provide a different approach. So as to my own opinions, I lean towards the Rumney Models, Dave Bradwell and Craig Welsh products. The RCH PO chassis is the one area where there is some duplication, for this area I can fully recommend the Craig Welsh chassis. I really like the way the brake gear folds up as one piece and locates in the chassis. The Masokits equivalent have a high level of detail, but the individual parts which require pinning and the hand drawn vs CAD artwork does in my opinion does make the assembly process a bit more fiddly. I can't comment on the Brassmasters offering as I've already agreed to standardise on Craig's chassis's where applicable.

 

So having started with your second question, I'll go back to your first. There are many positives for the Rumney chassis's, Justin test build's all his etches before they're released, he's spent several years developing a standard assembly process that features across all his kits, so once you've built one you're already prepped for how the next will go together, there are some very detailed instructions that are available to read and download at no expense (I can fully recommend that you read these before deciding whether this route is suited to your build style and level of skill), they've all been developed on CAD using the latest design techniques so don't suffer from faults in the design work (incorrect allowances for fold lines, misaligned holes etc). So what negatives can I say? Not a lot really, apart from the build time and perhaps delicacy. So, don't expect to build a chassis in a couple of hours! Recognise that you need to be gentle, if you're heavy on the solder or struggle with tiny drill bits or tiny fold lines, then these probably aren't the kits for you. However this will also apply to probably all etched chassis's, no matter how good or bad they are!

 

On to your third and final question, I would advise a piercing or razor saw for both the control and accuracy. I'd then finish off with a sharp scalpel and files. The big problem with a Dremmel is the speed at which things can go wrong if you slip or make a mistake. The other issue I've found is keeping the Dremmel under control if it snags or bites the material and can whip the model away from your secure grasp. You're also more likely to take a chunk out of yourself!

 

 So to summarise, the Rumney Models kits would be my go to chassis no matter whether you're a novice or a seasoned modeller, they're very well designed, fully tested, and highly accurate. If a novice, start with one of the more simple chassis's like the single sided 16T etch.

 

I hope that is useful and informative. Good luck with your experiments, it's worth trying several options even if just to establish what works for you and what doesn't. Finally have fun!

 

Paul

 

 

thank you for all of that info. I’m glad Rumney models uframes are as good as they look then.

 

after analyzing all the plastic wagons that I’ve built over the years (about 150 of them), I’ve decided that I will keep SOME of the plastic uframes, to be specific the ones that are moulded finely like Parkside, Slaters, and Chivers. I will be replacing the uframes on the Cambrian and Ian Kirk kits. Have any of you notices that their moulings are very blobby? Like the leaf springs are blobbed together as one single thick spring. I will be replacing their uframes one by one. And from now on most plastic kits that I build I will be building them on a brass uframe. I really want to mix and match different configurations/axleboxes/wheelbases (as long as they are prototypical of course).

 

Also just wanted to mention that there are SOME uframes by Cambrian that I will not replace because they actually are moulded finely, particularly the SECR and CAM RYS uframes.

[brossard]

Glad to hear you are prioritizing.  I've built Parkside, Slaters and Chivers in 4mm and they are good.  I find Chivers mouldings to be particularly fine.

 

I'm sure I must have built some Cambrian too but nothing sticks out to me, good or bad.

 

I always liked components by Lanarkshire  http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/index.html  models, these could be used to enhance some wagons.

 

John

[niteshadex]

So I’ve spent a good portion of my Sunday alleviating my OCD by making a clear and complete plan for what I am going to do with the wagons I’ve already built and all future wagons. So here goes...

 

EXISTING WAGONS:

LMS D1664 Vans (Cambrian): Replace uframe with Rumney and/or Gibson RCH 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe

 

LMS All-Steel Vent Vans (Cambrian): Replace uframe with Rumney and/or Gibson RCH 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe

 

LMS 8T Fish Vans (Cambrian): Replace uframe with Rumney and/or Gibson RCH 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe

 

SR 8-Plank Opens (Cambrian): Replace uframe with Rumney and/or Gibson RCH 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe

 

SR 5-Plank Opens D1380 (Cambrian): Replace uframe with Rumney and/or Gibson RCH 17’6” x 9’ steel uframe

 

GWR Felix Pole 20T Minerals (Ian Kirk): Replace uframe with Rumney RCH 21’6” x 12’ lift link steel uframe

 

GWR Mink C Vans (Ian Kirk): Replace uframe with Rumney RCH 21’6” x 12’ lift link steel uframe

 

BR 13T High Fits (Parkside Old Version): Replace uframe with Rumney BR 17’6” x 10’ Morton brake steel uframe

 

BR 13T China Clayhoods (Ratio): Replace uframe with Rumney BR 16’ x 9’ Morton brake steel uframe

 

Various others I may change as well

 

RTR STOCK UFRAME REPLACEMENTS:

Bachmann and Oxford 5/7/8 Plank RCH Opens: Replace uframe with Brassmasters PO uframe range (designed specifically for RTR stock)

 

Bachmann 14T Tank Wagons: Replace uframe with Rumney RCH 17’6” x 10’ independent brake steel uframe

 

PLASTIC UFRAMES THAT I WILL KEEP, BUT ENHANCE WITH DETAILING FRETS:

 

Red Panda uframe

Chivers (All)

Ratio GWR/RCH 17’6” x 10’ uframe

Ratio LNWR 16’ x 9’ uframes

Parkside (All except old discontinued ones)

Slaters (All)

Cambrian SECR + LBSC and CAM RYS uframes

 

FUTURE KITS:

 

If a brass variant exists, will most likely go with brass

 

 

.......so this is my plan for my major rolling stock overhaul. I’m not only doing this because of my OCD.  My favorite aspect of this hobby is creating rolling stock to my liking, and I cannot fit any more on my layout, so why not improve what I have? Also I would like to keep practicing with the soldering iron until it becomes second nature.

[brossard]

Not sure if I would call myself OCD but since I started building 7mm, I have taken particular care to detail the brake gear and underframes of my builds.  I have also added extra detail to my RTR wagons.

 

You probably want to build up a stock of brass and plastic materials which will help you with your wagon enhancements.

 

I like that you have a plan.  I think that building in brass is very satisfying.

 

John

[PenrithBeacon]

I haven't tried the Rumney kit so I can't comment there, but I have tried the Gibson and it was dreadful, won't be doing that again.

[5050]

I think the Gibson one was/is based on an original by Omega Models, taken over by Kean Maygib and then sold as AG by Alan.  This dates it rather.  I've had some Omega 'seconds' (at least I hope they were seconds given the very poor etch quality!) which I've built and I found them quite 'challenging'.  However, this may well be due to the poor etching standard rather than the design - which may well have been updated in recent times, modern productions should be a lot better.  I soldered them but the instructions I have suggested they should be superglued together!

[brossard]

1 minute ago, 5050 said:

 I soldered them but the instructions I have suggested they should be superglued together!

 

Ugggh!  I can't imagine gluing an etched brass kit.  Probably a sop to those who are terrified of soldering.

 

John

[5050]

2 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

Ugggh!  I can't imagine gluing an etched brass kit.  Probably a sop to those who are terrified of soldering.

 

John

This probably dates back to when superglue was the latest go-to adhesive for all situations.  The original Omega kits date back to the 70's I reckon.

Edited January 25, 2021 by 5050

[brossard]

That said, I have been known to use CA to stick on some finer details but I always prefer to use solder.

 

I have only done one WM kit in 0 gauge so far and used CA for that, although I did drill and pin at strategic spots.

 

John