Axles Rear of the Brakevan - 1955

[Aire Head]

According to regulations what was the maximum number of axles permitted behind the brake van/vehicle in early 1955 in the following situations.

 

1) A passenger train

 

2) A Class C fully fitted goods.

 

I am aware of the requirement for all stock to be fully fitted and to be XP rated.

 

I am not concerned about the vagaries and exceptions provided under sectional appendices or otherwise.

 

I know this is a massive can of worms but hopefully I can get a simple concise answer in layman terms 

 

Thank you on advance.

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't think the 1950 rule book addresses your question, so I think you do have to look to vagaries and exceptions in other instructions - Appendices, WTTs etc.

 

XP originally (1938) meant Express Passenger - suitable for use on a Class A train, so didn't mean others couldn't be conveyed on slower passenger trains, though they would still have to be fitted wagons unless it was a "mixed train" which in practice meant a goods brake van on rear, and there weren't many of those by 1955.  The concern about expresses was four wheelers bouncing along at unreasonable speeds and derailing - longer wheelbase wagons less susceptible to this than shorter ones.  A concern with wagons was risk of loose couplings failing, obviously more dangerous on a rising gradient - and if the guard is travelling behind it, he can secure that portion of the train,   Although fitted wagons should stop if the couplings part, infrequently it has been known not to work as intended, so you want to limit that.  So local dispensation might be given where justified taking into account practicality and risk considerations such as speeds and gradients.   

 

1)  There was often more than coach with a brake compartment in a passenger train.  Rule 129 (applicable to both passenger and goods trains) say that the Guard must travel in the brake van, but doesn't say it has to be the rear one.   That rule also allows him to travel on the engine or elsewhere in the train where necessary in the execution of his duty.  It says that vehicles attached on the journey must be placed "in the proper position on the train" without specifying where that is.  It also says he must arrange for the Station Master to informed in the event of "any departure from the authorised formation of the train at the commencement of or during the journey", but again does not specify what that authorised formation is.

 

2) a freight train must not under Rule 153 be run on any running line beyond station limits without a brake van in rear, unless authorised by the Operating SUperintendant.  

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Michael Hodgson

[The Stationmaster]

I only have Western Region information for that date (although it was unchanged since the 1930s as far as passenger trains were concerned) and it could be altered by the issue of a Special Instruction from the Supt of The Line.

 

Passenger Trains

Gradient not steeper than 1 in 100 or falling or level - 40 wheels maximum of vehicles of all description. 40 wheels maximum of vehicles containing passengers (Note *)

 

Gradient steeper than 1 in 100 but not steeper than 1 in 40 - 40 wheels maximum vehicles of all descriptions. 24 wheels maximum vehicles containing passengers (Note *)

 

Gradient steeper than 1 in 40 - 16 wheels maximum vehicles of all descriptions. I vehicle only containing passengers.

 

Note * -  Provided the vehicle(s) containing passengers are in all cases fitted with a (working) continuous brake.

Where practicable the vehicles containing passengers should be marshalled immediately behind the rear brakevan.  (And don't forget that any 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles should be marshalled behind the bogie vehicles).

 

The above Instructions remained in force until c.1965 when the number of axles was considerably increased in all the above situations.

 

Freight trains

I can't find any general authority to place vehicles behind the brakevan on freight trains on the WR.  In fact it was repeatedlty reiterated in various amendments that freight trains of alll Classes were required to carry a tail lamp and two side lamps hence it would not have been possible to attach any ordinary wagon behind teh brakevan.

 

There were however various Local  Instructions - usually applicable only over very short distances - which allowed the movement of freight vehicles without a brakevan in rear outside Station Limits (a brakevan was not required for the movement of vehicles within Station Limits).

Edited January 25, 2021 by The Stationmaster
typos

[Aire Head]

That's great thank you. I certainly don't plan on marshalling as many as 40 Axles behind my passenger brakes so that's makes life easier.

 

Pretty emphatic no to axles behind the brake van on goods trains so that's nice and easy too.

 

Handy to know about not marshalling 4-6 wheels in front of bogie stock aswell.

 

Thank you

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

........ (And don't forget that any 4 or 6 wheeled vehicles should be marshalled behind the bogie vehicles). ......

The 1960 General Appendage states "Four and six wheeled vehicles may be intermixed provided they are all marshalled at the front of all bogie vehicles or behind all bogie vehicles." 

also "Four wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of under 15ft. should as a general rule be marshalled at the back of passenger trains and at the rear of all bogie vehicles." ( There are three " Where this is impracticable ...." clauses.)

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Handy to know about not marshalling 4-6 wheels in front of bogie stock aswell.

 

Thank you

 

I think that is another stipulation which came in because of accidents - and may have been general by the 1950s, though I am pretty sure it didn't apply north of the border well before WW2 when some of the important Anglo-Scottish services were routinely carrying parcels and fish ahead of bogie coaches for convenience of operations.  It doesn't seem to have made it into the rule book, but any standing instructions which had been issued would remain in force unless cancelled.  Maybe it was in the General Appendix?  The proliferation of rules, regulations and other paperwork issued by various authorities does make it difficult to say what was allowed and what was merely good practice.  Even when something is banned, it is often qualified by "except where authorised". 

[Wickham Green too]

".... front of all bogie vehicles or behind  ......"

 

 

Loch Carron : 21/8/74

Edited January 25, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[The Stationmaster]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

I think that is another stipulation which came in because of accidents - and may have been general by the 1950s, though I am pretty sure it didn't apply north of the border well before WW2 when some of the important Anglo-Scottish services were routinely carrying parcels and fish ahead of bogie coaches for convenience of operations.  It doesn't seem to have made it into the rule book, but any standing instructions which had been issued would remain in force unless cancelled.  Maybe it was in the General Appendix?  The proliferation of rules, regulations and other paperwork issued by various authorities does make it difficult to say what was allowed and what was merely good practice.  Even when something is banned, it is often qualified by "except where authorised". 

The Instructions relating to the Marshalling of Non Passenger carrying Coaching Stock vehicles with 4 or 6 wheels were basically un iversal across the main line Companes from the introduction of the XP branding of vehicles which applied from 30 September 1938.  Prior to that as a general rule of thumb 4 wheel NPCCS vehicles were required to be marshalled at the rear of passenger trains but could be marshalled front if there was no alternative and there were already restrictions in place limiting teh speed (and teh trains to which they may be attached) prior to that date.

 

On the GWR four wheel 4 and 6 wheel passenger carrying vehicles were barred from being formed in trains running over 80 miles non-stop by 1920 (and over various shorter distanceswhere trains ran non-stop.  By 1936 those Instructions had vanished to be replaced by a new Instruction barring 'older vehicles' (types not specified but basically 'of Pre-Group origin') from any trains timed to run faster than 30mph.   There had been a discussion at the RCH prior to the outbreak of the Great War of a proposal to ban 6 wheeled passenger carrying vehicles from being formed in trains which ran between the lines of different Companies.  This was definitely deferred following the outbreak of the war but I can't trace it being in existence as an Instruction at any time between 1920 and 1924 which suggests the proposal was never revisited  - possibly because it was considered that there was no need to do so.

 

instructions in respect of this kind of thing were always contained in the General Appendix and that was consistently so between 1920 and 1989 (dates i can confu irm b from my own archive) although I suspect they went back to around 1910 or so and possibly even to the mid/late 1890s.  While there were inevitably relatively minor inter-Company differences most of these things - like the Rule Book and Signalling Regulations - were agreed between Companies through the RCH committee structure and obviously Instructions had to be consistent where inter-company running took place.

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Aire Head said:

That's great thank you. I certainly don't plan on marshalling as many as 40 Axles behind my passenger brakes so that's makes life easier.

 

 

The Stationmaster said 40 WHEELS, not axles.

 

[Aire Head]

Just now, wagonman said:

 

The Stationmaster said 40 WHEELS, not axles.

 

Even then I don't plan on having 20 axles hanging off the back!

[wagonman]

A couple of All 3rd strengtheners and a Siphon or two and you're almost there...

 

 

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

A couple of All 3rd strengtheners and a Siphon or two and you're almost there...

 

 

 

I'm on an Ex Midland line so it's an Open Third, a CCT and a couple of Vanfits 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Aire Head