Thought experiment - if you were starting an entirely new range of UK model trains, what would you start?

[jcm@gwr]

24 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I did see a blog post once by a TT modeller who wrote that the introduction of too much commercial support would cause him to switch to S scale...

 

Then introduce some S scale R-T-R items first!

That'll teach him (pompous plonker!) 

[Michael Hodgson]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

GW broad gauge.  New baulk track would be needed so it could be any scale you like, but 4mm is most likely to take advantage of RTP.  It needs to be something nobody else is doing, 
 

I agree that on board battery or rechargeable power on dead track is the future, but suspect that NFC control has more potential then radio. 

Yes, but you'd also have to have mixed gauge in preparation for the gauge conversion - so would that be 16.5, EM or P4?

[whart57]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I've always assumed those that model in TT are sadists who refuse to have anything ready to run so not sure there would be much market?

 

I think you are confusing masochists with sadists

Edited January 27, 2021 by whart57

[w124bob]

I was thinking about the same thing recently, after the Hornby 2021 annoucement. From a business stance I have to go with OO and concentrate on filling certain gaps. The company would need a cash generator first model so I would have the airbrake fly ash CSA Prestflo and the vac brake coil sprung grain wagon in whiskey and Grainflow liveries. Coaches, Mk1 brake first, and a Kitchen car, Mk2c TSO, BSO, FK(I think the MK2c was built in greater numbers than the Mk2b). Loco's a class 06 and for the steam era a Fowler 2f tender loco in BR, plus LMS and LNER stove brakes and decent milk tanker. I'd throw in a few vehicles, to cover 1960's/70's Royal Mail vans the big Austin/BMC ones, plus BR Chevette/Astra and Marina vans. We currently have several push/pull steam locos on the market but only the Hawksworth auto coach. So there is a gap for an LMS/BR derivative and an LNER/BR pushpull loco or even an ex Caledonian C15(?). Long term, decent Gresley corridor stock, a GER 2-4-2 tank and the little 2-4-0 tender engine. I currently have £27.50 in working capital, any investors? 

Edited January 28, 2021 by w124bob

[The Johnster]

14 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, but you'd also have to have mixed gauge in preparation for the gauge conversion - so would that be 16.5, EM or P4?

Yes. 

[Michael Hodgson]

Perhaps we should have adjustable gauge, like the Talgo ... for when they build a railway tunnel from Stranraer to Belfast.

[Zomboid]

I have to agree with the 3mm posse.

 

In 3mm you could use all the RTR OO/HO track to do a reasonable approximation of Irish gauge, too.

 

I'd commit commercial suicide and focus on pre-nationalisation, Which would by default also include late pre-grouping.

[scottystitch]

On 26/01/2021 at 21:28, eldomtom2 said:

Assume you were creating a new range of UK model trains in a scale previously uncatered to for the UK (think Z etc., though the actual scale doesn't matter*). What would you start with to provide maximum coverage/appeal with as little products as possible?

 

*Assume it's a scale where large tender engines are viable products, though

 

I accept that this does not assume, like the OP suggested, that large tender engines are viable, and it doesn't answer the question satisfactorily at all, however if the Euro-millions came up I'd commision a complete finescale range of Isle of Man Railway models, including correctly gauged and sleepered track, at a scale of 4mm to the foot.  Models would be available to reflect livery, etc. at most, if not all, stages of the railways' lives, including Isle of Man Railways, Manx Northern and teh Foxdale Railway. RTR coaching and goods stock would also be provided.  Locomotives would be battery powered and charging tracks would be provided  for in engine sheds, stations, etc..

 

The commercial viability wouldn't come into it. 

 

Pie in the sky, but there you have it; that's what I'd do

 

Best

Scott.

Edited January 28, 2021 by scottystitch

[whart57]

I'm not sure if the opening question was asking for pie in the sky suggestions - in which case why not a complete range of SE&CR stuff in S - or whether the idea was to suggest things that would be risky but still potentially able to break even if everything went perfectly well.

 

If the latter, I would venture forth an opinion that something that could interest collectors might be more feasible than opening up a new front in modelling. An acquaintance at the local club collects locos that run, or have run, on the preserved Bluebell Railway. They occasionally turn a wheel on the club's OO gauge layout, I think I saw four P's in different liveries all going round in some pre-Covid meeting, but are not intended for a period layout. It would be interesting to survey how many of the various Bachmann short runs are actually run regularly. I suspect less than half are.

 

If that is the case then that is the market to go for. Those who just want to run trains are already well catered for, those who model in minority scales like 3mm or S do so despite the lack of commercial support and may not be the most eager buyers, and those waiting for an obscure range to slake their thirst for more Great North of Scotland Railway models are too few in number.

 

This thinking leads me to conclude that whatever is chosen needs to run on 16.5mm gauge track and not be so wide that it can't run on at least part of a club OO layout. Which brings me back to On16.5 and my suggestion of train packs. As I said before I'd start with the Welshpool and Llanfair.

 

The reasons for choosing the W&L are:

• Two locos that are virtually identical meaning it would be easy to do both Earl and Countess, potentially doubling sales to collectors
• The potential of doing both Swindonised and original versions utilising much of the CAD work done for the first version.
• Ability to do multiple liveries - again aimed at the collector market - Cambrian, GWR and post-nationalisation.
• Limited goods stock, really need just an open and a brake van to start with
• The Beyer Peacock locos are attractive enough for people to buy one without really having the intention to build a layout to run them on.

The fact the W&L is rather limited in choice of stock is actually a plus here, because having covered that we could then move on to do the same with another bit of Welsh narrow gauge, such as the Talyllyn. The fact the preserved Talyllyn had locos from the Corris railway opens that up too.

 

The thing is, these small Welsh railways may be limited in size and variety, but they are well known. If you can sell Stephenson's Rocket and period carriages you have a good chance of selling these too. The appeal might not be quite as big, but unlike Rocket you also have a market among those who might actually build a layout with them.

[tomparryharry]

On 27/01/2021 at 09:02, Phil Parker said:

I'd not release a single model until every aspect had been agreed by everyone on every forum. That way you won't need to spend money on shipping, boxes or tooling.

 Surely you jest, young sir? 

 

To quote a passage from Hornblower:- " They will argue over the colour of an orange..."

[tomparryharry]

On 26/01/2021 at 21:35, 96701 said:

Toy trains and set track with 18mm gauge to start the move away from 4mm models on 3.5mm track.

 

I concur, but 18.5mm, to give the engineering tolerances a bit of wiggle room.  From 18.83mm to 19mm is not that much....

[96701]

7 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I concur, but 18.5mm, to give the engineering tolerances a bit of wiggle room.  From 18.83mm to 19mm is not that much....

Yup, fine detail can be sorted when I've amassed a large fortune to make a start.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi all,

 

Starting from scratch it'd be 1:120 scale TT on 12mm track.  Start with basic steam, diesel and electric sets.  Flying Scotsman/Mallard with three Mk1 coaches, an HST and an Azuma or Pendolino.  If the budget stretched to it I'd tool a 37 and Pullman coach, and then put 3 Pullmans in the steam set and do a BR green 37 + 3x maroon Mk1 'early diesel' set. 

 

The sets would be packaged with Tillig bedding track (similar to Kato Unitrack) and all models would be digital, with simple (but upgradeable) light and sound functions and ideally on-board battery power (trickle charged by the on-board electronics taking power from the track) and control via bluetooth app or similar straight from the box.  

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[rue_d_etropal]

A couple of people have suggested British HO.  Looking for a bigger market than just UK, to justify costs.

This would take care of track etc as that is already supplied .

I would start with anything that has been run in UK and abroad. Quite a few 'modern image'locos such as class 20s and some of the old west coast electric locos,not forgetting the Woodhead locos which ran in Netherlands.

For steam anything from WW1 and WW2 which was taken from UK to Europe, such as the austerities and the LMS 8F  for WW2 and various pre grouping locos for WW1. Lots of suitable wagons as well.

For passenger stock, again anything used in the wars, plus the Night Ferry stock.

 

If I was thinking narrow gauge then a new version of what Marklin tried in the 70s, 1/32 scale on 16.5mm gauge track. As a scale this is probably the most common used for toys etc, eg farms, soldiers, scalectrix,so is ideal for the younger modeller, and it can use OO/HO track.

[009 micro modeller]

15 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

what Marklin tried in the 70s, 1/32 scale on 16.5mm gauge track

 

What did Marklin call this?

[Flying Pig]

38 minutes ago, Ben A said:

Starting from scratch it'd be 1:120 scale TT on 12mm track. 

 

The argument that pops up whenever rtr to scale gauges is mentioned is the difficulty of fitting wider than scale wheels into UK outline bodies, what with splashers and skirts and so on.  The usual response is that Continental manufacturers manage fine with H0.  The counter is that they do so by making cylinders and splashers overwidth to an extent that would not be acceptable to UK modellers.

 

Not going to take a stand on the argument, but since H0 and proper 1:120 TT have been mentioned I thought it relevant to the discussion.

[ClikC]

Well. the short answer is, you probably would not, it's just too many risks. Like making a model in TT or S scale, it has a small following, but OO is the bulk market.

 

But, as a thought experiment. I'd probably opt for some wildly used existing scale, just not used by railways. Something like 1:72

 

I'd develop two types of track. A train-set type geometry. And then an accurate scale RTP set of common points etc.

 

Locomotives, i'm no expert on steam so can't comment sort of probably a Black Five a starter for steam. Modern image, would either be a 47, 37 or an 86. With tooling made to produce a variety of variants, range would start with 'as built', some BR blue mid point and the some example in 'as withdrawn' type configurations.  

 

Regards

 

Matt 

[HonestTom]

Being realistic, I probably wouldn't introduce anything outside of the most established scales, for the simple reason that they didn't succeed the first time around. However, assuming I was so rich that it didn't matter, some possibilities do spring to mind.

 

I like the idea of a modern-day Big Big range and I also think British HO would be worth a shot, concentrating first on prototypes seen in both the UK and abroad to generate international sales.

 

But if we're sticking to our own ideas, I'd go with a range of Z gauge. In modern houses, space is at a premium. T gauge is nice, but the limited range, poor reliability and fiddly nature of the stock limits its usefulness. I'd also say that it's too small to create any kind of satisfying layout other than "trains in the landscape." At that size, detail just isn't visible.

 

 Z gauge is a step down from N, but it still allows a certain amount of detail. I'd probably start with something with international potential - a Class 66, some container wagons, some kind of passenger train that's seen in both the UK and abroad. Next would be a shunting locomotive, e.g. a class 08, and some short wheelbase wagons, ideal for a micro-layout. Assuming these were successful, I'd move definitively into the steam era - let's say an Austerity tank, a big engine (an A3?) and some Mk 1 coaches. And take it from there.

[Revolution Ben]

57 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The argument that pops up whenever rtr to scale gauges is mentioned is the difficulty of fitting wider than scale wheels into UK outline bodies, what with splashers and skirts and so on.  The usual response is that Continental manufacturers manage fine with H0.  The counter is that they do so by making cylinders and splashers overwidth to an extent that would not be acceptable to UK modellers.

 

Not going to take a stand on the argument, but since H0 and proper 1:120 TT have been mentioned I thought it relevant to the discussion.

 

Honestly I haven't a clue - I'd be happy to stick with diesels and electrics but the OP wanted steam.

 

Having said that, for a wholly new range pitching to a new or emergent market,  if the first steam model looks good and has cool play features then I reckon it would sell well, whatever the compromises made to the cylinders or splashers.  Does Mallard even have splashers?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[whart57]

Another thought, perhaps the new range should not be of railways as such, but of tramways. I would suggest large scale, 1:45 or 1:32, rather than trying to make satisfying tramcar models in OO/HO or smaller. The larger scale means overhead wiring is a lot easier and it also means rail could be produced to a proper tramway profile.

 

The mechanics would be a lot easier, no need for coupling rods and the like, you get a long way with a four wheel truck and a bogie design. Modern motors would fit under the floor of a 1:45 scale tramcar quite easily and the N20 motor type supplied with its own spur gear reduction would fit crossways and be easy to gear up to the driven axle.

 

If 1:32 scale is chosen a choice of 45mm and 32mm gauge track would allow for both standard gauge and 3'6"/meter gauge versions. A 1:32 scale tramcar would still be shorter than a OO gauge train and would go round curves of the same radius.

 

Choosing the scales of 1:45 or 1:32 would also mean both British and overseas tramcars could be offered, and they could run together without looking daft, unlike mixing OO and HO on the same layout.

 

As to prototypes, I would suggest starting with the more famous cities, ones where you might hope to find interest in the souvenir market too So some suggestions:

• A London "Feltham", which could also be offered in Leeds livery
• Something from Blackpool
• A "generic" British open top four wheeler, a real prototype but typical of Edwardian tramways
• An Amsterdam "blue" four wheeler with trailer car

For modern trams there are the Manchester and Croydon examples, and the various offerings from Bombardier, Siemens etc could probably be offered in different liveries

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by whart57

[Flying Pig]

59 minutes ago, Ben A said:

I'd be happy to stick with diesels and electrics

 

Most recent stuff is pretty naked about the ankles, but some older D&E might be tricky - the 37 springs to mind.

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

T gauge is nice, but the limited range, poor reliability and fiddly nature of the stock limits its usefulness.

 

By ‘limited range’ do you mean the current inability to have steam (with working motion) and unavailability of 6-axle diesels? I think they are working on these currently and the range of prototypes available given those limitations is currently quite good. The reliability is also massively improved since T was first introduced. However, what it doesn’t really offer is the ability to shunt, though I’m not sure how much better Z would be in that respect.

[HonestTom]

8 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

By ‘limited range’ do you mean the current inability to have steam (with working motion) and unavailability of 6-axle diesels? I think they are working on these currently and the range of prototypes available given those limitations is currently quite good. The reliability is also massively improved since T was first introduced. However, what it doesn’t really offer is the ability to shunt, though I’m not sure how much better Z would be in that respect.

That, and also things like track geometry. Again, these are things that could be improved upon. I admit it's perhaps a little unfair to say, "The trouble with this is there's not much available. Now with my fictional range in which everything is available, on the other hand..." 

[rue_d_etropal]

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

What did Marklin call this?

 Article in one of my recent magazines talks about a range called Marklin Minix. Odd thig is it says it is O scale, but I remember something in RM back in the 70s talking of a range suitable for 1/32 scale.

Some of the Fleischmann Magic Train stuff was big enough for 1/32scale, in particular the diesel, as they were based on quite big narrow gauge.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

I accept that this does not assume, like the OP suggested, that large tender engines are viable, and it doesn't answer the question satisfactorily at all, however if the Euro-millions came up I'd commision a complete finescale range of Isle of Man Railway models, including correctly gauged and sleepered track, at a scale of 4mm to the foot.  Models would be available to reflect livery, etc. at most, if not all, stages of the railways' lives, including Isle of Man Railways, Manx Northern and teh Foxdale Railway. RTR coaching and goods stock would also be provided.  Locomotives would be battery powered and charging tracks would be provided  for in engine sheds, stations, etc..

 

You'd better keep buying those lottery tickets.  At least you have the consolation of supporting various charities, unfortunately just not the one you want - so far!  

 

Technically your ideas are outside the scope of this thread as IoM is not part of the UK of course, but being built by Beyer Peacock the locos can be called British.  Don't forget the Snaefell line, Manx Electric Railway and Groudle Glen.