Why do the Ex Lima Class 59s run better than the Ex Lima class 66s?

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

I would have thought that both the ex Lima class 59s and ex Lima class 66s reintroduced by Hornby, would run equally well?

 

Current evidence, admittedly only on tests of one sample of each, is that the class 59s run better on my 12ft end to end layout than the 66s.

 

Has anyone else experience of these models running, or thoughts as to why there is a difference?

Interestingly, according to Pat Hammond's British Model Trains, the class 59 was reintroduced by Hornby in 2006, and the class 66 was reintroduced in 2007. This would suggest that the class 66s should be better than the class 59s?

 

Best regards

Paul

 

[Pmorgancym]

Why are the 59s Railroad/Railroad plus and the 66s in the main range?

[atom3624]

What do you mean run better?

 

Better/smoother when running very slowly?

Can run faster?

Quieter?

Use less power?

Better haulage capacity?

 

Al.

[JDW]

Surely the answer to that (considering that as far as I know they use the same motor etc) is that actually what you've found is that one model runs better than the other, it just happens that one is a 59 and one is a 66. You can't really conclude that class 59s run better than class 66s based on one model. I suspect if you tried a 37 or 47 with similar basic motor bogie, you'd be able to conclude that (say) the 47 runs better than the 66 or the 37 better than the 59. Different production runs, made at different times, variables such as how well the pick-ups contact the wheels at all times as it moves, any dirt or grease that may have worked its way onto pick-up surfaces in transit or in use,...  

Ask anyone who had a fleet of the original Lima versions how much difference there could be in what was superficially the 'same' standard motor bogie!

Edited January 28, 2021 by JDW

[Tallpaul69]

13 hours ago, atom3624 said:

What do you mean run better?

 

Better/smoother when running very slowly?

Can run faster?

Quieter?

Use less power?

Better haulage capacity?

 

Al.

Fair question!

Run over the same route through electrofrog points on DCC the 59 ran smoothly, the 66 hesitated at the points, and probably needed a slightly higher power setting for the same speed. I aimed to run both at a similar speed, but given only a 12ft run, I did not try to run them fast!

They were both running light engine, the mechanical noise from both was similar.   

[Tallpaul69]

Doing further tests I have decided that the problem with the 66  lies mainly with two 3 way points .

At both of them it stalls part way through the point.

I have checked the wheels for cleanliness, and they look ok, certainly no worse than the 59 I was comparing it with!

 

As the 3 ways are back to back with a couple of feet of plain track between them, the direction in which the point is approached seems not to have any bearing on the problem.

Also it seems not to matter whether the points are set for straight ahead or to either the left or right turn of the track.

 

None of my other locos that I have tested on the layout, steam or diesel, have problems at these points.

However, I have a number of locos both steam and diesel to test on the layout, so I will report further once more testing is done.

 

Cheers

Paul  

[JDW]

Have you only checked the wheel treads? Running through points causes the wheels to move around. That can cause the pick-ups to lose contact if they aren't set up properly. Have you checked that they all maintain good contact even when the wheels move side to side within the frame? And maintain contact on both sides at the same time? And that the pick ups and pick up sufaces haven't been contaminated with debris or stray lubricant?

[adb968008]

Have you weighed them ?

it could be weight affects track behaviour.
 

Hornbys railroad co-cos use the same motor bogie.. 31,37,47,59,66,92 .. the only difference is the cradle (bogie frame ) and the actual locomotive body  it sits in.

 

Other than that the issue is going to be down to the individual motor... cleanliness, amount of use etc

Edited February 4, 2021 by adb968008

[NickL2008]

Are your points Insulfrog, or electrofrog points? The former in guessing?

 

NL

[The Johnster]

Because real 59s run better than 66s.

 

He said electrofrog 3-way points; I'm thinking the issue may be either wheel sideplay affecting pickup or one model dirtier than the other, and for haulage difference and the voltage/speed equation probably within the range of normal variation between models.  I have 6 locos powered by Bachmann 57xx or 8750 pannier mechs, and all of them run well and smoothly, but each has it's own individual quirks and minor differences in performance.  Much like real steam locos, but it shows there can be a difference in performance between ostensibly identical mechanisms.

 

Check the backs of your wheels where the pickups bear on them, and the pickups, as well as the tyre surface and track, for cleanliness, and check the flangeways of the turnouts for debris which may be lifting the flange of the 66 but not bothering the other locos; for this reason check it's back to backs.  I have a set of pound shop childrens' paint brushes with stiff nylon bristles which are useless for painting but very good for cleaning flangeways.  Does the 66 have traction tyres? If so, get rid of these current blockers, Satan's expectorant.  Your loads on a 12' long layout cannot be heavy enough to warrant them.

[TRAILRAGE]

Strange as all of my little Boys Hornby Class 66 (504,514,705,789,842 & 847) run incredibly well including two ex Lima models (66016 & 66702) and and Atlas Static Model Body (that I Modified to fit a Slightly Modified Hornby Chassis) I built working chassis up from spares. He also Has 59001 in AI  that runs amazing as does my 59004 in later Yeoman, but his 59003 in GBRF is the complete opposite. Making a growling noise and being hesitant to move unless the power is turned up.  oddly enough my Godsons 59003 is the same so it must be a batch issue. Its that bad that I've purchased a spare motor to fit to it.

 

Cheers Trailage

Edited April 17, 2021 by TRAILRAGE

[Halvarras]

Could it be a consequence of amended gearing? I have four Class 121s and it's quite noticeable that two are more controllable than the other pair, which take off like scalded cats/Bachmann Class 43 Warships when powered by my old Tri-ang test controller. I have blue and green ones which I run as a pair and had to swap chassis about to get two which match. It seemed to me that Hornby had changed the gearing at some point early on, but there may be some other explanation and I can't say whether the same would apply to other Railroad models.

[JDW]

Older Lima models generally had pick up from one side of the power bogie and the other side of the trailing bogie. Newer models had pick up on both sides of the trailing bogie (one side using the original method via the brass pivot pin, the other side using a brass strip bearing on the rear of the wheels, and a wire through a small hole in the chassis.

[frobisher]

21 minutes ago, JDW said:

Older Lima models generally had pick up from one side of the power bogie and the other side of the trailing bogie. Newer models had pick up on both sides of the trailing bogie (one side using the original method via the brass pivot pin, the other side using a brass strip bearing on the rear of the wheels, and a wire through a small hole in the chassis.

 

It might be even easier than that.  The 59 from 2006 might not have traction tyres (the first Limby releases didn't) and the 66 being 2007 does, but both will have (in theory) all wheel pickup.  I have a first release class 73 with no traction tyres - rice puddings regard it with no fear at all but she doesn't stall on points.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by frobisher

[rob D2]

TBH , I’d stop spending money on poor locos .

the Lima 66 was superceeded by the Bachmann 66 when it came out in 2005. 
 

I’ve tried Lima with the new “ Hornby motor “ as railroad and its awful , sold the 2 x 121s I had .

 

you will only get decent running with decent products so concentrate on Bachmann , newer Hornby and maybe Heljan I’d say 

[7013]

My  only Hornby 66 (Captain Tom) is ok on even track, give it something a bit awkward to negotiate and its limitations are exposed. It is too light, and having a free centre set of wheels does not help.

I have retired my model and will keep it in memory of that great man it was named after. I spent money on this loco to support a good caus,  but agree with rob D2 spending money on poor models is tnot to be recommended

 

 

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, scumcat said:

I bought a Hornby freightliner 66 for my 6 year old son for Christmas he is made up with it and it does everything he wants it to do. And I didn’t break the bank either. I was able to buy 2 car transporters and two railroad container wagons, for less than the price of a second hand Bachmann one. I do think a lot of railway modellers forget how they started and I bet it wasn’t on top of the range models.

Yep , if I was 6 a Hornby one would do . I had a Hornby 29 as my first diesel in 1979 .

but I’m 48 now , and it won’t anymore. Your aspiration moves on with age and income . I’m guessing OP isn’t six ?

Edited April 18, 2021 by rob D2

[7013]

I dont think we should get too uptight about this, of course people purchase according to what they can afford and what their expectations are. But I think aspiring to get a better version of a particular model is not unreasonable.

Edited April 20, 2021 by 7013
spelling

[rob D2]

17 hours ago, scumcat said:

No he probably isn’t six, but his income may not stretch to top of the range Bachmann or Hornby locos but you automatically presumed it would by telling him to stop buying poor loco’s. I’m 53 by the way but I’m not sure what that has to do with it.

He can do what he wants , but there comes a point when you can’t improve the models anymore to get near the latest stuff.

” what that has to do with it “ , is the fact you mentioned people forgetting where they started - I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect people have more money as an adult than as a child.

[TRAILRAGE]

Depends on your situation. Up until 8 years ago I definitely had more money than as a Child. But with a nessacary rebuild on the house and now being made redundant and dumped on the scrapheap I definitely don't!  I know a lot of people who are in similar positions regrading Disposable income which they do not have.  The last 18 months has been devastating for a lot of people in many ways.   I still have most of my stuff from when I was a kid which has now passed to my little boy.  Now at 47 (and suffering with depression) for the first time in my life find I'm am genuinely concerned as I haven't been able to to find another job that isn't basically a zero jour contract aimed at kids.  We should never assume someone is better of now than when they were a kid. Trust me it isn't always the case.

 

Cheers Trailrage

[rob D2]

12 hours ago, TRAILRAGE said:

Depends on your situation. Up until 8 years ago I definitely had more money than as a Child. But with a nessacary rebuild on the house and now being made redundant and dumped on the scrapheap I definitely don't!  I know a lot of people who are in similar positions regrading Disposable income which they do not have.  The last 18 months has been devastating for a lot of people in many ways.   I still have most of my stuff from when I was a kid which has now passed to my little boy.  Now at 47 (and suffering with depression) for the first time in my life find I'm am genuinely concerned as I haven't been able to to find another job that isn't basically a zero jour contract aimed at kids.  We should never assume someone is better of now than when they were a kid. Trust me it isn't always the case.

 

Cheers Trailrage

I’m on the same page as you. 49, furloughed, redundant now....and no chance of a decent opportunity in the next few years, 

 

Of course we “ should “ have more money than as a kid, but like you, three times redundant and family take away the disposable .

 

the trains have been a big comfort in this time as without hobbies/ interests there really isn’t much left