Goods train operations - the guard is in charge of the train?

[MR Chuffer]

I read somewhere (here?) that the goods train guard is overall responsible for the train to include the loco, so if a goods train arrives at end of an outward journey, does the guard with the same guards van have to do the return journey with the same engine, or is another guard and/or guards van an option?

 

I ask because I've found it convenient at the start of a running session to have all my goods trains marshalled and ready to go in the fiddle yard, and some of the return workings set aside in the destination goods yard ready for the return journey. Its easier and quicker for them to be parked up with a guards van already attached than to remove the one from the incoming train and manoeuvre it to the back of the return train. (MR in my case, and not to mention turning it to face the right way, if that ever happened...)

 

Just curious. Thanks for any insights.

 

And one completely off the wall, what did guards do on long journeys on slow moving freight trains for WC facilities...? Thinking Toton to London at 20 mph, if that.

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

No super straight answer , some vans were tied to certain runs many in a common pool. The load might determine what weight of van used.   Yes the guard is in charge of the train but as ever it is a cooperative job, when things go wrong guards go back and fireman sent forward to signalbox/ cabin to report presence if signalling does not provide proof. 

Larger yards had "kip" sidings where brakevans were parked up waiting next duty.  A good guard with a clean and well cared for van would try to ensure( bribe) shunters to ensure his next/ return would be the same van. But inspections and repairs adds to the mix.  A grotty worn out van would end up on the stops hopefully ignored. I will leave you to work out how "Kip -roads" got the name! 

 

Luckily crews were made of stern stuff and a bottle in emergencies . With freights getting looped the provision of a signalbox WC or bush I guess was the normal method of relief !  Back in the day pubs were much more frequently found and gave top up and empty out facility on most jobs.

 

In the way you can simulate traffic demands with many card/die/ PC systems - brake vans should( could) be  in the plan to allow for repairs ( wild cards) or rosters.  But it is a hobby so what makes for a fun session must rule.   

[ChrisN]

My understanding is that the guard has always been in charge of the train.  (That is what the Union disputes have been about recently.)  The driver is responsible for driving safely, but it is the guard who has overall responsibility, and it is down to him if there is a breakdown, or the train stops to make sure the train is safe.  I do not think this means he has to do everything, but has to liaise with the engine crew about placing detonators, contacting the nearest signal box etc.  I know on the GWR passenger trains it was up to the guard to make sure they had the correct coaches for a particular journey.

 

How that transferred to a goods train I am not entirely sure but I would think that once the train had reached its destination safely then his responsibilities would have ended.  He would then be transferred to another train home.

 

As for the last point, what do you think they did, even if they made it all the way without having to go into a layby siding to wait for an express to pass.

[Oldddudders]

C'mon chaps, you surely all know the old rhyme?

 

The guard is the man

Who sits in the van

Down at the back of the train.

Now, the driver - up front

Thinks the guard is a - really rather decent chap actually,

And the guard thinks the driver's the same. 

 

For most of the life of railways in the UK, the guard was indeed in charge of the train. But in recent decades, with DOO and other similar initiatives, this has ceased to be the case. After all, in them thar days the guard was supposed to observe signals, hence brake van duckets and periscopes. This would have been hard to do, when on passenger services he was now required to undertake revenue protection duties. 

[Rivercider]

First of all, operating your layout should be enjoyable to you. 

If it is convenient to you to operate your layout the way you describe then you can presume all the outbound trains are formed up with the guard fresh on duty and van freshly prepped.

All the returning trains from the fiddle yard are guards and vans returning home after an outward trip.

 

For me, I enjoy shunting and marshalling, so part of the fun is making up trains. The idea that a brake van might become defective, and need replacing is part of the challenge,

 

cheers

 

 

 

[Rivercider]

Actually thinking about it I seem to remember one of my old railway colleagues talking about his younger days as a goods guard, and the stories he used to tell.

Am I imagining a conversation where the older driver says to the young guard 'see these buffers (at the rear of his tender), then everything behind that is your responsibility, and everything in front is mine'

 

cheers

[bbishop]

Some brake vans were dedicated to specific services.  On the LSWR turn of the century Road Vans were in use on branch lines 60 years later.

Also some stock was restricted.  So New Vans (built from 1915, but still referred as such 50 years later), Dance Halls, Gondolas, Pillboxes and Queen Marys were all banned from the Tunbridge Wells - Hastings line.  The Southern Railway liked their nicknames.  

Bill

[Edwardian]

42 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

For most of the life of railways in the UK, the guard was indeed in charge of the train. 

 

As I have always understood it. 

 

For an extreme example of the proprietorial attitude of a guard (when his train was stolen)  see the Andrews Raid.  

 

 

 

[Caley Jim]

I have gone through Jim Summers' books on 'Operating the Caledonian Railway', but can find no reference to goods guards.  From photos, however, it is clear that some guards had their own van with their name painted on it.  Others were dedicated to particular branch lines, e.g 'Bonnybridge Branch' (van 383) or Goods depots e.g. 'Buchanan St. Goods' with 'J. Bruce' on the curb rail (van 308).

 

Jim

[ianathompson]

To the best of my knowledge, both here and abroad, the guard has always been in charge of the train.

There are various accounts  in an American magazines  along the lines of:

 

"See that?" conductor to engineer (or guard to driver in British parlance), pointing at a lamp.

"That's yer brains."

In other words you don't do anything until I tell you (via the lamp).

 

On a related subject Trains, the US equivalent of Railway Magazine, contains a "The way it was" feature in every issue.

It usually details a humerous railway anecdote, often recounted in detail and at length, by some-one writing from experience.

This month's is a good example of how not to trace an airleak on the Westinghouse brake.

 

It is a pity that the British press don't run a similar column in a mainstream magazine.

(Or perhaps they do. There are so many of them nowadays!)

 

Ian T

 

 

[Mike 84C]

Well, Oldddudders that's a rhyme from the past! and not what I'd expect to see here! I worked with one or two, at both ends of the train, who fitted the description perfectly.

  I was taught the guard is in charge of the train, how would the Driver know his load (train weight/ length) if the Guard had not worked it out? And the driver was in charge of the engine, he could ask for a weight reduction if the engine would be overloaded.

[Regularity]

A late friend, ex-railwayman, has told me stories of some drivers relishing giving the guard of a loose-coupled goods train a severe jolt, even to the extent of breaking an arm. I suspect that would have been a very infrequent occurrence due to a “clash of personalities”, and the driver would be reported for it.

[MR Chuffer]

Thank you all, very enlightening, and entertaining... My takeaway, principally from @Robert Shrives and @Rivercider is to look at it from the other end of the telescope, that the rather busy BLT I operate has its own allocation of Brake Vans and therefore the early morning goods departures can be prepped with a BLT Brake Van in place, and the arriving one is turned round and despatched later in the day. Makes sense.

 

Good to know that all options appear open for Brake Van management, so I'll now revisit my WTT to review.

[Regularity]

Depends on the railway company and the service, for example a “road van” might be specifically allocated, and even marked as restricted use (GWR often did this, e.g. the toad road van allocated to Kington).

[MR Chuffer]

10 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Depends on the railway company and the service

Yes, it seems apparent that there were different practices across the various companies, mine being MR and L&Y, though I only have 1 Lanky break van at the moment and they quite obviously allocated break vans to specific locations from the photos I've seen, and much else in their wagon portfolio.

[Guy Rixon]

The guard is in charge of the train, but what the engine hauls on a return journey is a different train, so there's no particular need for the guard to stick with the same engine crew. This would be true even if the return working was the empties from the inbound working: same wagons, different train working.

 

If the guard and engine crew work the same shifts, and if they happen to book on at the same time (not especially likely), then they might work together through a whole day.

 

On some railways, at some time (IIUC), guards had their "own" vans, just a particular driver would stay with one engine for long periods. On larger railways, with an eye to efficiency, a guard would get whatever van was available for a given working (and might well curse the previous man for his tending of the stove).

 

Brake vans were often branded to work between specific points. LNWR vans, for example, were branded either for their home depot (e.g. Camden), or for the two locations between which they were supposed to work (e.g. Crewe and Carlisle).

[Guy Rixon]

Expanding a little on my previous point, consider the "Crewe and Carlisle" vans. Crew is about 140 miles from Carlisle, and an unfitted train between the two would not average much above 10 mph, given the banks and the need to wait for faster trains to pass. The journey is longer than one shift, even in the 19th century when the working hours were longer. It seems inevitable that guards worked part-way up the line, then changed trains and worked back, or returned "on the cushions". A through goods-service would have at least two guards during its journey. 

[MR Chuffer]

Thanks @Guy Rixon, I'm much wiser now and will mix and match as suits.

[Tom Burnham]

Don't they say that the driver drives the guard's train over the signalman's railway?  I seem to recall Gerry Fiennes has some anecdotes about goods guards and brake vans in his books. Guards especially in older GER vans were in for a rough time on Temple Mills to Whitemoor freights with one particular driver when March Town were playing at home...

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Tom Burnham

[Wheatley]

In the current Rule Book 'Guard' is a role, not a job title. So the guard's duties on a DOO train are carried out by the driver, and the rules amended where necessary to take account of the fact that he/she can't be in two places at once. 

 

On a light loco in steam days then one of the footplate crew would have done it. As the 'guard's' duties in that case would have consisted of little more than fixing the tail lamp and traipsing to the box when required you can bet that the fireman did it. You can probably also bet that neither he nor the driver thought that meant he was in charge of the engine !

[RJS1977]

Whether there would be a "spare" brake van at the far end of the line already on the outgoing goods train would depend a lot on the size of the terminus and the frequency of goods trains.

 

A small branch terminus like Wallingford only saw one goods train a day, so it would clearly have been wasteful to have a brake van sat there doing nothing for 24 hours between trains - as the brake van off the incoming train would then have been out of use for the next 24 hours this would have been the equivalent of having a brake van sat out of use all the time!

 

On the other hand, a busier yard/terminus with a much more frequent turnover of trains (possibly to/from diffferent destinations) wold have trains made up ready to go all the time. Such yards would have their own shunting loco(s) as opposed to the branch termini where the train engine did the shunting.

[Regularity]

I always understood brake vans to be a slightly scarce resource - like locos, railways needed enough but absolutely no more than was necessary. But I am still bemused by a photo of Stoke Ferry station in 1911, which clearly shows 3 brake vans buried in the midst of rakes of wagons in a very full yard. (In the Ely to King’s Lynn Middleton Press book.)

[RJS1977]

18 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I always understood brake vans to be a slightly scarce resource - like locos, railways needed enough but absolutely no more than was necessary. But I am still bemused by a photo of Stoke Ferry station in 1911, which clearly shows 3 brake vans buried in the midst of rakes of wagons in a very full yard. (In the Ely to King’s Lynn Middleton Press book.)

 

It could depend on the time at which the photo was taken - if several trains had arrived (which was probably the case if the yard was "very full"), possibly some shunting was in progress although it would have been more normal to shunt the brake van off first (possibly goods trains had come in and outgoing trains were being made up using the vans on the end of the incoming trains).

 

The other possibility is that depending on number of wagons and braking systems used, some trains required more than one brake van. Some railways preferred to marshall them all at the back but it's possible some railways spread them out through the train which would make it easier for the guards to see the whole train between them).

[Regularity]

It’s a rural branchline, with six passenger trains and one goods train a day, occasionally one of the passenger trains might be mixed.

[CKPR]

55 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

A small branch terminus like Wallingford only saw one goods train a day, so it would clearly have been wasteful to have a brake van sat there doing nothing for 24 hours between trains - as the brake van off the incoming train would then have been out of use for the next 24 hours this would have been the equivalent of having a brake van sat out of use all the time!

I recall reading that at one of the GWR branch terminii, possibly Wallingford, the branch brake van was parked up for long periods of time and served as a makeshift office / mess for railway staff whilst mixed trains ran with a brake coach.