Goods train operations - the guard is in charge of the train?

[ianathompson]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

when March Town were playing at home...

 

As an aside, I've been to the ground many times.

Even cleared snow off the line markings at half time a few years ago when they were 1-0 down and wanted it abandonned.

Don't think any one would hurry to watch them in this day and age given the standard of football nowadays.

That is said by a supporter of a team in the same league before anyone takes offence!

 

Ian T

[Wheatley]

44 minutes ago, Regularity said:

It’s a rural branchline, with six passenger trains and one goods train a day, occasionally one of the passenger trains might be mixed.

If the yard was full and had spare brake vans in it then something was up - cattle market, sheep sales, seasonal traffic - any number of reasons. 

 

Traffic wasn't always balanced. Goods trains between Stranraer and Dumfries/Carlisle in BR days often conveyed spare brake vans, often two or three, heading back home as there was more traffic to Northern Ireland than from it. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Wheatley

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

If the yard was full and had spare brake vans in it then something was up - cattle market, sheep sales, seasonal traffic - any number of reasons. 

The point was, the brake vans were buried in the general merchandise sidings amongst the wagons.

I strongly suspect that for the purposes of an official photo, the GER may have sent a train of empty wagons down to make the yard look full, to be honest, but it raises the problems of trusting “official”, i.e. posed, photos as evidence of practice dating back 110 years.

Quote

Traffic wasn't always balanced. Goods trains between Stranraer and Dumfries/Carlisle in BR days often conveyed spare brake vans, often two or three, heading back home as there was more traffic to Northern Ireland than from it. 

Quite, but as I have said before and no doubt will say again, specific examples do not make for general rules, and goods traffic between Dumfries/Carlisle and Stranraer (for onward shipping to NI) in BR days hardly represents the Downham and Stoke Ferry Railway in 1911.

Presumably those return workings with extra brake vans also included long trains of empty cattle vans, vans and opens, as otherwise the brake vans would be balanced, but not the other stock! (And what about the locos?)

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

I strongly suspect that for the purposes of an official photo, the GER may have sent a train of empty wagons down to make the yard look full, to be honest, but it raises the problems of trusting “official”, i.e. posed, photos as evidence of practice dating back 110 years.

...

Quite, but as I have said before and no doubt will say again, specific examples do not make for general rules, and goods traffic between Dumfries/Carlisle and Stranraer (for onward shipping to NI) in BR days hardly represents the Downham and Stoke Ferry Railway in 1911.

Presumably those return workings with extra brake vans also included long trains of empty cattle vans, vans and opens, as otherwise the brake vans would be balanced, but not the other stock! (And what about the locos?)

You may be correct with your first point, any photograph can only capture a moment in time and even official records never tell the full story.

 

My point about unbalanced brakevans was aimed at the OP's original question about about back workings. But seeing as you asked, two coach trains with two Black Fives on the front were common, always eastbound, and the eastbound goods trains were often max length as well, but being predominantly vans it's impossible to say how much of the train is actually carrying anything. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Wheatley

[Compound2632]

On 29/01/2021 at 10:29, MR Chuffer said:

(MR in my case, and not to mention turning it to face the right way, if that ever happened...)

 

Which way round is the right way round, for a single-verandah Midland brake? - or LNW, GW. (It's rather frustrating that railway photographers at any period have never shown much interest in photographing the rear end of goods trains. I've read the discussion on GW brake vans but despite some swearing blind they were always a particular way round, no-one has yet shown me the goods yard turntables on which they were, purportedly, turned!)

 

On 29/01/2021 at 12:24, Caley Jim said:

I have gone through Jim Summers' books on 'Operating the Caledonian Railway', but can find no reference to goods guards.  From photos, however, it is clear that some guards had their own van with their name painted on it.  Others were dedicated to particular branch lines, e.g 'Bonnybridge Branch' (van 383) or Goods depots e.g. 'Buchanan St. Goods' with 'J. Bruce' on the curb rail (van 308).

 

A common practice in the 19th century, though not on the Midland. There are photos of L&Y "tin tan" brake vans with the guard's name painted on but the practice seems to have ceased by 1905. A photo of GW AA3 No. 17539 allocated to Crewe, taken after the introduction of the 25" G W initials in 1904, has the name "J YOUNG" on the second plank up, between the number and the tare weight.

 

On 29/01/2021 at 16:55, Guy Rixon said:

Expanding a little on my previous point, consider the "Crewe and Carlisle" vans. Crew is about 140 miles from Carlisle, and an unfitted train between the two would not average much above 10 mph, given the banks and the need to wait for faster trains to pass. The journey is longer than one shift, even in the 19th century when the working hours were longer. It seems inevitable that guards worked part-way up the line, then changed trains and worked back, or returned "on the cushions". A through goods-service would have at least two guards during its journey. 

 

I'm not convinced a through Crewe-Carlisle goods would be quite that slow; as far as I've been able to work out it would be worked through by a single engine, around the turn of the century a compound 0-8-0, so it has to be within the working hours of the engine crew as well as the guard - probably as a lodging turn. Such an important goods train would be timetabled to have a clear path at a time of day when there was a lull in the express passenger trains. 

 

According to LNWR Wagons Vol. 3, there were a number of routes with vans branded for the route rather than the home station, e.g. "Birmingham & Edge Hill" or "Crewe & Leeds".

 

Unfortunately "Holyhead & London" puts a dent in my theory!

[Guy Rixon]

Long shifts; lodging turns; through freight workings; and Webb compounds. The "Bill Bailey" compound 4-6-0s were built for the faster, long-distance goods workings. I wonder if the nickname --- the allusion to the popular song titled "Won't you come home Bill Bailey?" ---  was not because they broke down and couldn't get home, but because they worked so far afield that all their diagrams were lodging turns.

 

Anyway, I don't believe that rostering a single loco for a long haul precluded a crew change. I know of a working on the LNER where one crew took a fitted freight almost all the way to its final destination (at Grimsby docks), but had to hand over the engine to a local crew a few miles short (Grimbsy Town? Can't remember the details) because their shift hours were up. The shift didn't allow enough time for disposal of the loco, so local men took it on. And it was a lodging turn too; the departing crew got to sample the cultural intensity and vibrant nightlife of Immingham several times a week.

 

EDIT: I looked up the details of the GCR working. Fish empties + goods Woodford to Grimbsy Docks, worked by Woodford engine and crew who worked through to the docks, then handed the engine over to a local crew for disposal at Immingham. The Woodford men lodged in Grimsby and worked back the following day. The dissatisfaction with lodging at Immingham was actually noted in respect of Gorton crews working newspaper trains from Manchester to Grimbsy. They were used to lodging in the town, then later found themselves rusticated to Immingham. All this is in The Great Central in LNER days by Jackson and Russell, a great read if you like details of train working.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Guy Rixon

[RJS1977]

If a "Bill Bailey" broke down, did it go in the Black Books?

[billbedford]

Crew shifts were 10 or 12 hours pre WW1, and weren't reduced to 8 hours until after the war. 

[kevinlms]

On 31/01/2021 at 10:04, Compound2632 said:

 

 I've read the discussion on GW brake vans but despite some swearing blind they were always a particular way round, no-one has yet shown me the goods yard turntables on which they were, purportedly, turned!)

 

Nor any evidence of where the van roof was repainted after every trip!

 

[dpgibbons]

BR 1950 Rule Book, Rule 138 - "Each train is under the control of the Guard, who must give the Driver any instructions necessary to the working of it". 

[Chris M]

From what I have read the crew of goods trains would often be known to the landlords of pubs near the tracks. I haven't read about using the facilities but goods train crews did seem to pick up supplies of ale from these places at all times of day. Some of the alcohol consumed on branch line freight workings was quite shocking.

 

The easiest way to relieve oneself if moving and out in the countryside would be to pee straight out from the van. I've seen this done and it works fine; passenger trains used to leave far worse on the tracks.  The guard would know the line well so would choose his spot. This is unlike the chap I was with on a preserved line who started to pee just before we went through a station - oops.

[ianathompson]

5 hours ago, Chris M said:

Some of the alcohol consumed on branch line freight workings was quite shocking.

 A little bit of thread drift, so apologies but....

 

This used to be quite a common railway activity!

I went into signalling in my forties, so did not know the BR era.

 

I was told by one lad, younger than me, but he went on to the railways at sixteen, that he worked a local box as a young man (no names etc.).

The train service was not that onerous, particularly on Satrudays, when no freight ran.

After they got rid of the 11.00 passenger he would meet up at a village local with signalmen in the box on either side and have a pint.

This was while they were still on duty!

They then went back for the next train.

 

By the time that I started on the railways drinking was a complete no no and one of the boxes concerned had been shut for years.

Significantly atttiudes were different, even in the eighties, and I had visited it as a non railwayman.

The pub concerned was a pleasant village local.

Like all good things that went years ago as well.

 

Regerding alcohol, I like a pint or two myself.

The general attitude on the railways had been that it was not a problem, provided that it was taken sensibly, in moderation.

The whole thing was spoilt by one or two idiots who drank too much.

Mind you, I worked with some idiots who did not need any to cause problems, but those are other stories!

 

Ian T

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by ianathompson
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