Heljan Gears and Ultrascale

[55012]

My Heljan Deltic did the expected and split its gear. No problem there I thought I have a Heljan spare (from Howes back in the day) plus the excellent replacement from Jim. On taking the bogie apart I found the split gear but also found that the next gear on the shorter drive train (those that have taken a Heljan bogie apart will understand) had also split. Now I had the need to find a replacement for that. Optimistically but without much hope I tried Gaugemaster who stated they may have some gears coming in in January but they don't know which ones!. So with even less hope I tried Heljan UK, guess what the reply came from Gaugemaster with the same message. What to do now I thought. I read, I think on RM Webb, about Ultrascale entering the field so I went to their website. Sure enough they now do some gears for Heljan replacements but of course not the one I needed. Never mind I'll will email them and see if they can help. Very quickly I received an answer from David Rogers and after some brief correspondence an un-spilt gear(from the other bogie) was sent off. The first thing to arrive almost by return was a shaft. This was the nearest equivalent to the Chinese shaft which I understand doesn't quite match common stock sizes. Test fitting appeared to be fine. The next step was David sending me a gear mounted on the shaft. Re-assembling the bogie with the new gear I was unable to close the bogie sides up. Taking things into my own hands I shortened the shaft slightly and used some emery paper on the ends of the shaft. Success the bogie closed up fine. I then confessed to David what I had done and he was concerned that it was not the right way forward. Within a few days a replacement gear arrived having been tweaked by David and this proved to be an easy drop in fit, so a big shout out to ULTRASCALE. If any of you have similar problems you know where to go. I wouldn't bother with Heljan they don't give a monkeys, their standard response being 'the problem is solved on newer models'. Hey Heljan, what about those of us who in good faith bought the earlier models? They weren't exactly cheap so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Heljan to deal with the problem. They had a simple solution when they finally admitted there was a problem, get China to produce enough spares of all the gears to replace faulty ones FOC. I doubt I will buy anymore of their products.

Picture 1 Completed bogie, Picture 2 The first replacement gear showing position of split gear in chain

 

Steve

[pwr]

First time I have heard of a Deltic splitting gears but as its the same bogie as the 37 I am not surprised.

 

I still feel very aggrieved at this and Heljan' s response is appalling. I was in a dialogue with them and the attitude seems to be your models are out of warranty and I get get spares from Gaugemaster which of course may not be the case as you have found. 

 

Personally I think the Gauge O Guild response is pathetic - they have simply accepted the fact that Heljan seem to have fixed the problem and moved on. I think they should be taking a class action against Heljan to provide F.O.C. gears to all who have these models and there will be a fair few of them. I can't run my stock that often and I have had gears split on locos that have sat in a box without being used. Both my 37 and 35 have had to have them replaced. 

 

Jim Snowdon has had sets of gears made and I have a set in stock together with some 37/47/55/Hymek gears I bought from Howes as a precaution back in the day.

 

Good to hear the news from Ultrascale. I know Father Dougal has bought a set of theirs with good results.

 

Paul R

[Hal Nail]

I realise im repeating others experience here but this is one of those issues the brings in the red mist. I tested my 33 a year or so ago and it and it was fine, whereupon I put a load of effort into modifying it to the earlier silencer version, put it back together intending to sell it, only to discover that 3 of the 4 drive gears had now split.

 

I've been told more 33 gears are coming but since then I've been brushed off by Gaugemaster twice so I just bought a couple of the Ultrascale. As they aren't cheap I just got enough for one bogie so at least i can get it running.

[GWR57xx]

5 hours ago, 55012 said:

... so a big shout out to ULTRASCALE. If any of you have similar problems you know where to go.

 

 

Totally agree re Ultrascale.

 

Earlier this month I had a problem with a plastic Heljan 43xx drive gear getting chewed up by the metal worm gear on the motor shaft, so contacted Gaugemaster to source a replacement. Gaugemaster's reply was:

Quote

 

Unfortunately we currently have no spares available for the O Gauge 43xx.

Heljan has not yet supplied us with any spare parts listings/diagrams for this loco.

 

 

I emailed Heljan to ask about spares and service instructions, no response at all.

 

So I contacted Ultrascale who came back to me almost immediately, and would undoubtedly have been able to supply the appropriate gear but unfortunately I was unable to figure out how to remove the gearbox to change the gear (the 43xx was returned to the vendor for a replacement).

 

I think Gaugemaster are struggling as service agents for Heljan because even they are not being given the information or spares.

 

[DCB]

6 hours ago, 55012 said:

 They had a simple solution when they finally admitted there was a problem, get China to produce enough spares of all the gears to replace faulty ones FOC. I doubt I will buy anymore of their products.

Steve

 

Maybe get the Chinese to make enough gears for  everyone to replace theirs when they split every time they split.  Might be a nice little earner at £10 a throw judging by the not dissimilar gears on eBay  direct from China 99p for 10 including postage. 

Or maybe they should have made the gears either a) Bigger, or (b) from metal if they wanted it to last beyond the guarantee period.   

[woodyfox]

Hi, 

I'm not a lawyer (although i have BA Hons (1st) in law) but it appears this failing of gears maybe be contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 s.9 'Goods to be of satisfactory quality'. Within which 'satisfactory quality' is defined as:

QUOTE: (3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b)appearance and finish;

(c)freedom from minor defects;

(d)safety;

(e)durability.

END QUOTE. 

 

Clearly the Heljan product with recognised gear failure is contestable under s. 9(3)(e) whereby durability is a considered factor. 

I don't own any Heljan products. If i did, i would be tempted to contact the supplier quoting the above. 

 

Cheers

[pwr]

I think a Consumer Rights lawyer should have a look at this. Any warranty given by the manufacturer does not replace your consumer rights and I would argue that a model railway locomotive of this cost provided it is operated in line with manufacturers instructions should last many years. if it doesn't its not fit for purpose and should be repaired at the manufacturers cost. The route should be to send back via your retailer but of course there is nothing they can do and Heljan clearly can't supply replacements in some cases and won't fix them. The problem is that this goes back to their very first models - the Hymek being delivered in 2004 and which may no longer be covered by that legislation.

 

If they can't supply the spares then they should cover the cost of ultra scale replacements. 

 

I am pretty certain that when I get my 47 out again it will have a split gear and its hardly been run since I had it

 

Paul R

[woodyfox]

1 hour ago, pwr said:

I think a Consumer Rights lawyer should have a look at this. Any warranty given by the manufacturer does not replace your consumer rights and I would argue that a model railway locomotive of this cost provided it is operated in line with manufacturers instructions should last many years. if it doesn't its not fit for purpose and should be repaired at the manufacturers cost. The route should be to send back via your retailer but of course there is nothing they can do and Heljan clearly can't supply replacements in some cases and won't fix them. The problem is that this goes back to their very first models - the Hymek being delivered in 2004 and which may no longer be covered by that legislation.

 

If they can't supply the spares then they should cover the cost of ultra scale replacements. 

 

I am pretty certain that when I get my 47 out again it will have a split gear and its hardly been run since I had it

 

Paul R

It might require a class action. Clearly there appears to be no trend in the market to reduced sales due to the fault. It seems consumers are accepting of the failing. 

[pwr]

Just now, woodyfox said:

It might require a class action. Clearly there appears to be no trend in the market to reduced sales due to the fault. It seems consumers are accepting of the failing. 

I agree. The difficulty is that they have apparently fixed the problem  and it doesn't affect newer models but there are hundreds of people out there that have models where this is still occurring and they can't get spares. Some have resorted to taking a motor out, others have sold them on. I bought my blue Hymek second hand and it had a split  gear when it arrived. I soon fixed it but I think the problem may have recurred judging from the noise when I last ran it.

 

It was also one of those models that was shipped without screw couplings and the card to send to obtain one was in the box. I duly sent it off but heard nothing. 

 

Paul R

[fail safe]

If there are 26 gears in two bogies, and they all have the potential to split, the potential cost of replacement at £10 a throw is scary to say the least. Heljan could have sourced a new production run long ago and supplied to all those who could prove their gears had split by sending said gears back to them for a new set by return. The lack of empathy with owners of their locos that cost several hundred pounds is disgraceful.  And now they have the cheek to say its only the older locos so nothing can be done, as if it doesn't matter any more. They are basically doing a Ratners on this one.

[woodyfox]

You probably have 3 options. 

Take legal action collectively. 

Accept the condition and attached risk. 

Don't buy and actively discourage others to buy thereby forcing change. 

 

Cheers

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, fail safe said:

Heljan could have sourced a new production run long ago and supplied to all those who could prove their gears had split

They did but they've run out again since then.

 

1 hour ago, woodyfox said:

Thereby forcing change. 

They have changed - the problem was addressed in releases after those initial ones.

 

Whilst this is undoubtedly irritating, the models in question are something like 10 years old now so legal action isnt going to get anywhere.

[woodyfox]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

They did but they've run out again since then.

 

They have changed - the problem was addressed in releases after those initial ones.

 

Whilst this is undoubtedly irritating, the models in question are something like 10 years old now so legal action isnt going to get anywhere.

Ah right, if its not ongoing then its just really annoying! Are loco's with split gears listed on Ebay at cheaper prices similar to the Poole built Farish stuff is? 

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, woodyfox said:

Ah right, if its not ongoing then its just really annoying! Are loco's with split gears listed on Ebay at cheaper prices similar to the Poole built Farish stuff is? 

no not usually. you take a risk buying them.

[JeffP]

Is there a list of affected models?

I have a Heljan western and Falcon, neither of which have ever turned a wheel, since I have no layout.

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, JeffP said:

Is there a list of affected models?

33, 35, 37, 47 all mentioned here.

 

Heljans announcement that spares were moving to Gaugemaster mentioned 26, 33 and original 37.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Hal Nail

[pwr]

19 hours ago, JeffP said:

Is there a list of affected models?

I have a Heljan western and Falcon, neither of which have ever turned a wheel, since I have no layout.

As far as I know there have never been problems with these two locos

 

Paul R

[fail safe]

On 30/01/2021 at 13:15, Hal Nail said:

They did but they've run out again since then.

 

They have changed - the problem was addressed in releases after those initial ones.

 

Whilst this is undoubtedly irritating, the models in question are something like 10 years old now so legal action isnt going to get anywhere.

Obviously I know that!

[Hal Nail]

42 minutes ago, fail safe said:

Obviously I know that!

You've lost me - I was responding to someone else suggesting a class action.

 

Ive just bought two of the metal double gears which are the ones which seem to cause the problems. That will do one bogie as a compromise fix I hope. Reluctant to throw too much money after bad especially now there is a new version out (class 33) so the odd ones are probably less appealing if you were to sell on.

 

I'm not defending the position, just being realistic that we probably cant do much?

Edited February 11, 2021 by Hal Nail

[gismorail]

On 30/01/2021 at 19:57, JeffP said:

Is there a list of affected models?

I have a Heljan western and Falcon, neither of which have ever turned a wheel, since I have no layout.

The above post maybe brings out an interesting point regarding this thread ...how many other people are there like JeffP with loco's sat in boxes not being run and totally unaware of the problem ......I did read many years ago that a large percentage of models get purchased by collectors so never turn a wheel in anger. A classic example of this was when Lima produced lots of 00 British diesel's in multi livery versions and a lot of collectors just bought a sample of each model and for those that remember Lima loco's were never the best runners. 

 

[Hal Nail]

31 minutes ago, gismorail said:

...how many other people are there like JeffP with loco's sat in boxes not being run and totally unaware of the problem ......

I had assumed that was why the initial and then replacement batches of spare gears ran out - probably wasn't apparent just how many models were affected for some time.

 

Mine was absolutely fine (or at least it wasn't obvious if they had already started to go) until very recently, then 3 of the 4 key gears went at once.

[gismorail]

15 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I had assumed that was why the initial and then replacement batches of spare gears ran out - probably wasn't apparent just how many models were affected for some time.

 

Mine was absolutely fine (or at least it wasn't obvious if they had already started to go) until very recently, then 3 of the 4 key gears went at once.

Yes maybe my Class 47 is about to let loose  and as you have found more than just one gear goes....... It is an issue that I have spent so time thinking about and I have come to the conclusion that as most Heljan 0 gauge locos will work perfectly well on one motor and gear box I would just replace all the gears with Ultrascale and be done with the problem on one motor 

 

[fail safe]

On 11/02/2021 at 09:53, Hal Nail said:

You've lost me - I was responding to someone else suggesting a class action.

 

Ive just bought two of the metal double gears which are the ones which seem to cause the problems. That will do one bogie as a compromise fix I hope. Reluctant to throw too much money after bad especially now there is a new version out (class 33) so the odd ones are probably less appealing if you were to sell on.

 

I'm not defending the position, just being realistic that we probably cant do much?

No you lost yourself I was replying to you, where you said to me,  'They did but they've run out again since then.' Easily done though!  I wasn't referring to the unavailable spare gears, I was suggesting Heljan could have potentially sorted this years ago with full run, and replacement of the gears.  

 

Now it rumbles on even though it is only the first four locos. The problem is actually bigger now, as all the gears in one of these locos have the potential to split, not just the odd one or two. It's almost a bit of a Ratners as far as public relations go..

[silverlink]

When I hear the name Heljan it fills me with DRED!

Having moved over to ‘O’ gauge around six years ago I started to build my loco and rolling stock collection for a new show layout I was building. As well as some superb Loveless and Golden Age models Pacifics and some kit built models I also bought some Heljan diesels. Along with a couple of friends we purchased a Class 20, 31, 37, 40, and Deltic. The locos were eventually run on the new layout where after only a short time the 20 ended with broken gears and one motor, the 31 broken gears, the 37 broken gears, the class 40 faulty front wheels that kept jumping off the track and Deltic broken gears.

The 40 was sold and at the moment the only loco repaired is the Deltic which I managed to get new gears for from Howes.

As well as the locos I purchased some Heljan 30 ton Class B tankers which as soon as they were out of the boxes bits started to drop off. I think nearly all of them have lost buffers with the ladders up the side of the tanks also coming loose.

As a member of the Gauge ‘O’ Guild I know there are plenty of fellow members who have suffered similar problems.

I have no confidence in Heljan anymore and until they up their quality control I for one will not be buying any of their products.

Ian

   

[47606odin]

11 hours ago, silverlink said:

When I hear the name Heljan it fills me with DRED!

Having moved over to ‘O’ gauge around six years ago I started to build my loco and rolling stock collection for a new show layout I was building. As well as some superb Loveless and Golden Age models Pacifics and some kit built models I also bought some Heljan diesels. Along with a couple of friends we purchased a Class 20, 31, 37, 40, and Deltic. The locos were eventually run on the new layout where after only a short time the 20 ended with broken gears and one motor, the 31 broken gears, the 37 broken gears, the class 40 faulty front wheels that kept jumping off the track and Deltic broken gears.

The 40 was sold and at the moment the only loco repaired is the Deltic which I managed to get new gears for from Howes.

As well as the locos I purchased some Heljan 30 ton Class B tankers which as soon as they were out of the boxes bits started to drop off. I think nearly all of them have lost buffers with the ladders up the side of the tanks also coming loose.

As a member of the Gauge ‘O’ Guild I know there are plenty of fellow members who have suffered similar problems.

I have no confidence in Heljan anymore and until they up their quality control I for one will not be buying any of their products.

Ian

   

well, I have 15 Heljan O gauge locos, and other than split gears on my 33 and 47, from the early batches, I have never had an issue with any other Heljan products. Plenty of bits fall off Dapol stuff to, but these things are large and heavy and plastic, requiring decent pressure to hold them, and I generally just key the mating surfaces with wet and dry paper, and use some industrial strength superglue. Problem solved, no drama, no panic.