GCR Huddersfield Line

[1165Valour]

As most of you know, in 1846 the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway seemed likely to go to MS&LR until the last minute. The next year, the LNWR would acquire it, along with its companion scheme, the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester Railway. I've been casting about for Great Central modelling ideas for some time, and recently returned to this one. My idea is to model what the line between Manchester London Road and Leeds Central might have looked like under the GCR between 1905 and 1914.

I'm still looking into what engines and traffic were common on the line, but I should think it would make for a good deal of operating interest. One of my main interests in the pre-Grouping era is the diversity of companies, and this line allows me to include five (six if you have the Hull & Barnsley build its extension to Huddersfield and Halifax).

[1165Valour]

Dealing with the question of the myriad companies and stations in Leeds, I'm guessing the relationship the LNWR and NER had will still make sense. However, in this case it'll be the GCR instead of the LNWR. It'll probably still make sense to build Leeds City station here as well.

[1165Valour]

I admit I don't know very much about stations - does anyone know how the MS&LR's style compared with that of the LNWR, as the former will be constructing the line here?

[James Harrison]

The MS&LR didn't really have a house style as such, if you look at (say) Worksop, Woodhouse, and Staveley (just picking three at random) you see very different results. 

I think the style of station you'll end up with will be very much influenced by how the line has developed between the 1840s and your 1905-14 period.  If it's been quadrupled to deal with traffic, an 1840s neo-Jacobean station isn't going to look right.  On the other hand, if it has stayed a bit of a backwater, you're unlikely to find an 1870s or 1880s 'double pavilion' sort of arrangement. 

[1165Valour]

3 hours ago, James Harrison said:

The MS&LR didn't really have a house style as such, if you look at (say) Worksop, Woodhouse, and Staveley (just picking three at random) you see very different results. 

I think the style of station you'll end up with will be very much influenced by how the line has developed between the 1840s and your 1905-14 period.  If it's been quadrupled to deal with traffic, an 1840s neo-Jacobean station isn't going to look right.  On the other hand, if it has stayed a bit of a backwater, you're unlikely to find an 1870s or 1880s 'double pavilion' sort of arrangement. 

Thank you, I'm not entirely certain how busy the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line would be under GCR management. It was the least profitable LMS line to Leeds, but a GCR Huddersfield line may be different.

[1165Valour]

Not sure if anyone here is well-versed in the railway politics of the Nineteenth Century, but I don't think it's too unlikely for the MS&LR to acquire the same rights as the LNWR to the L&YR Mirfield-Dewsbury line and Mirfield station. 

 

The description of the Huddersfield and Halifax Railway Extension (here) mention the H&BR approaching Huddersfield from the south and building a station of its own. Would it be likely the MS&LR could get the H&BR to agree to use their station at Huddersfield?

[1165Valour]

Those who know more about the Great Northern: would it make more sense for the GNR and the Huddersfield line to have a junction at Batley, as historically, or should there be one at Dewsbury also?

[ianathompson]

3 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Those who know more about the Great Northern: would it make more sense for the GNR and the Huddersfield line to have a junction at Batley, as historically, or should there be one at Dewsbury also?

 

I am not quite sure what you mean by this question.

I note that you are located in the US.

Did you roughly know the West Riding before moving to the US or are you a US resident contemplating a British layout?

 

I am only asking this because the terrain around  Dewsbury and Batley made railway building difficult.

I was born in Batley so I am familiar with the area even though I have not lived there for nearly forty years.

 

The GNR made a junction with the LNW at Batley but its main route in the area paralleled the LNW line into Dewsbury before branching off to its own station across town from the LNW.

This should show up on any pre-Grouping railway atlas.

Much of the route, to the west of the current LNW line and lower down the hill, is still there.

The bridge abutments at Jack Lane still survive.

 

An alternative site for planning "might have been" lines, and looking at what actually was there, can be found using the OS 25 inch sheets.

These are available online at the National Archive of Scotland.

They can be found here.

 

Back in the day Batley was the junction of seven routes.

In simple terms:

The LNW ran to Leeds (via Morley), Huddersfield (via Dewsbury) and Birstall, which was a branch line.

The Great Northern ran to Leeds (via Tingley) Bradford (via Driglington) Wakefield (via Dewsbury) and Wakefield (via Ossett).

 

The Great Northern had a station at Dewsbury  Central which was opposite the covered market.

The modern inner ring road A 638 has been built over the top of this but if you go onto Google Earth Street View next to the market you can still see the ground level remains of the GNR station.

 

The GNR ran through a short tunnel on leaving Dewsbury to reach its goods yard alongside the L&Y facility.

At the south end there was a junction to the L&Y which crossed the Calder.

The GNR therefore could use this to gain access to Huddersfield without any need for building more lines from Batley.

 

Hope that some of this is helpful.

 

Ian T

 

 

 

[1165Valour]

On 21/04/2021 at 06:30, ianathompson said:

 

I am not quite sure what you mean by this question.

I note that you are located in the US.

Did you roughly know the West Riding before moving to the US or are you a US resident contemplating a British layout?

 

I am only asking this because the terrain around  Dewsbury and Batley made railway building difficult.

I was born in Batley so I am familiar with the area even though I have not lived there for nearly forty years.

 

The GNR made a junction with the LNW at Batley but its main route in the area paralleled the LNW line into Dewsbury before branching off to its own station across town from the LNW.

This should show up on any pre-Grouping railway atlas.

Much of the route, to the west of the current LNW line and lower down the hill, is still there.

The bridge abutments at Jack Lane still survive.

 

An alternative site for planning "might have been" lines, and looking at what actually was there, can be found using the OS 25 inch sheets.

These are available online at the National Archive of Scotland.

They can be found here.

 

Back in the day Batley was the junction of seven routes.

In simple terms:

The LNW ran to Leeds (via Morley), Huddersfield (via Dewsbury) and Birstall, which was a branch line.

The Great Northern ran to Leeds (via Tingley) Bradford (via Driglington) Wakefield (via Dewsbury) and Wakefield (via Ossett).

 

The Great Northern had a station at Dewsbury  Central which was opposite the covered market.

The modern inner ring road A 638 has been built over the top of this but if you go onto Google Earth Street View next to the market you can still see the ground level remains of the GNR station.

 

The GNR ran through a short tunnel on leaving Dewsbury to reach its goods yard alongside the L&Y facility.

At the south end there was a junction to the L&Y which crossed the Calder.

The GNR therefore could use this to gain access to Huddersfield without any need for building more lines from Batley.

 

Hope that some of this is helpful.

 

Ian T

 

 

 

Thank you Ian - yes, I am an American modeller with an interest in the UK. 

 

I was aware of the GNR-LNWR junction at Batley, and looking at the map, I had wondered why had not been built at Dewsbury as well. I had simply thought that it may be explained by the two companies being rivals, but this makes better sense.

 

In the initial post for this thread I explain that this is a scenario which looks at the result of the MS&LR gaining the Manchester to Huddersfield line in 1846, and then on to Leeds. This isn't quite a fantasy, as it very nearly happened in reality.

[1165Valour]

Is it likely Leeds New station would still be built here?

 

I'd hoped I could include a connection with the Midland at Leeds, hopefully they'd be more willing to do so with the GCR here instead of the LNWR.

Edited May 25, 2021 by GWRSwindon

[1165Valour]

When the H&BR was planning its Huddersfield and Halifax extension, were there plans to make a junction with the LNWR at Huddersfield?

 

@Compound2632: Would the Midland have been any more willing to make any junctions with a GCR Manchester-Leeds compared to the LNWR?

Edited May 28, 2021 by GWRSwindon

[Compound2632]

On 04/02/2021 at 17:52, James Harrison said:

if it has stayed a bit of a backwater, you're unlikely to find an 1870s or 1880s 'double pavilion' sort of arrangement. 

 

The basis of a Metcalfe kit!

 

8 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

 

@Compound2632: Would the Midland have been any more willing to make any junctions with a GCR Manchester-Leeds compared to the LNWR?

 

The Midland had of course been dependent on the Sheffield company for the last few miles into Manchester, in the 1860s; there was generally a history of cooperation in Lancashire, once the Midland had wormed its way into the Cheshire Lines Committee, which had started out as joint MS&L / GN. The original Manchester & Leeds Railway reached Leeds over the North Midland Railway from Normanton - part of the grand Stephensonian plan that didn't really come off, once the M&L had morphed into the L&Y and more direct but harder routes had been built. The Midland lacked an altogether satisfactory Lancashire / West Riding route - via Skipton and Colne was still a long way round. For many years it ran its own goods trains between Sheffield and Manchester over the MS&L main line - as did the GN - until the Dore & Totley line was built, to which the GN goods trains switched - if the MS&L was going to break its long-standing partnership with the GN for London-Manchester traffic, then the GN was blowed if it was going to pay it tolls for goods trains! 

 

Draw your own conclusions.

[ianathompson]

12 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

When the H&BR was planning its Huddersfield and Halifax extension, were there plans to make a junction with the LNWR at Huddersfield?

 

 According to the recently published Hull & Barnsley Railway, by N Deacon, the H&B intended to join the LNWR at Longwood, south of Huddersfield. (p28).

The history gives the impression that the plans were very sketchy and were an opportunist move by the H&B.

The Bill for the extension went through Parliament but nothing more happened.

 

Quite how they intended to reach Longwood I do not know.

The L&Y Huddersfield-Penistone line was built in 1850 which removed the easiest routes through this area.

 

If you are keen on altering railway history I would have thought that a branch from Cudworth to Darton and then on to Clayton West, to join the L&Y, there would be a much more credible solution.

For a relatively small outlay the H&B could then have run into central Huddersfield and interchanged traffic with the LNW and L&Y at Hillhouse.

There were proposals to built from Clayton West to Darton, I believe, but they came to nothing.

 

Given the geography of Halifax it is difficult to envisage how the H&B would have approached the town as an independent company.

The GNR extension involved some very heavy engineering becasue the L&Y had taken the easiest route.

 

Ian T

[James Harrison]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The basis of a Metcalfe kit!

 

 

 

Indeed, and I've built one. 

 

 

 

[1165Valour]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The basis of a Metcalfe kit!

 

 

The Midland had of course been dependent on the Sheffield company for the last few miles into Manchester, in the 1860s; there was generally a history of cooperation in Lancashire, once the Midland had wormed its way into the Cheshire Lines Committee, which had started out as joint MS&L / GN. The original Manchester & Leeds Railway reached Leeds over the North Midland Railway from Normanton - part of the grand Stephensonian plan that didn't really come off, once the M&L had morphed into the L&Y and more direct but harder routes had been built. The Midland lacked an altogether satisfactory Lancashire / West Riding route - via Skipton and Colne was still a long way round. For many years it ran its own goods trains between Sheffield and Manchester over the MS&L main line - as did the GN - until the Dore & Totley line was built, to which the GN goods trains switched - if the MS&L was going to break its long-standing partnership with the GN for London-Manchester traffic, then the GN was blowed if it was going to pay it tolls for goods trains! 

 

Draw your own conclusions.

I see, but of course this scenario is supposing that the MS&L had absorbed the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line instead of it going to the LNWR. My thinking was that the Huddersfield line would be the more satisfactory West Riding-Lancashire route you mention.

 

I'm not quite sure how a MS&L Huddersfield line would cause them to break their alliance with the GNR, but it would seem to mean that an alliance between the NER and MS&L at Leeds is likely.

[1165Valour]

Alright then, another question that's come up - how would GCR trains get from Leeds to Sheffield, and then on to London? Just for simplicity, I'm assuming the MS&LR does still build the London Extension and thus become the GCR. I'm also assuming the Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction still went to the L&YR. 

 

The first route is: Leeds-Huddersfield-Penistone-Sheffield, using the Huddersfield line, Penistone line (H&SJ), and Woodhead line. Based on Dow, I know that MS&LR trains did use the H&SJ to get to Huddersfield, so perhaps it could work in reverse as well.

 

The second route is: Leeds-Wakefield-Nostell-Barnsley-Sheffield, using the Great Northern Railway (Bradford, Wakefield & Leeds Railway), West Riding & Grimsby, Barnsley Coal Railway, and Great Central Railway (South Yorkshire Railway). 

[Regularity]

On 28/05/2021 at 18:09, James Harrison said:

On 28/05/2021 at 09:09, Compound2632 said:

 

The basis of a Metcalfe kit!

 

 

 

Indeed, and I've built one. 

 

 

 

If you don't mind the observation, that is a stunning example of building a model using a kit, as opposed to building a kit.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Regularity said:

If you don't mind the observation, that is a stunning example of building a model using a kit, as opposed to building a kit.

 

Reading @James Harrison's layout topic, it seems the kit was used more as a template:

 

[James Harrison]

I built the kit, but you'll be hard-pressed to see it. The whole thing is clad in plastic sheet and then additional detail parts added (etched brass canopy filigree, whitemetal stanchions, I think most of a Wills detailing kit was used on too).

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Reading @James Harrison's layout topic, it seems the kit was used more as a template:

 

Yeah, but that was 4 years ago, and my memory isn’t what was I talking about?

[1165Valour]

Perhaps I could have the Class 8 and 8G 4-6-0s and 8A 0-8-0s make an appearance on the line.

 

A pity the Class 9Q 4-6-0s ("Black Pigs"/"Collier's Friends") only came on the scene in 1921. They were good hill-climbers, being used for hard slogging over the Woodhead route, so they'd likely fit right in on the Huddersfield line.

Edited June 3, 2021 by GWRSwindon

[1165Valour]

Working out how the Great Northern's West Riding lines will be altered by a MSLR/GCR Huddersfield line is proving somewhat tricky. If I remember correctly, Watkin had wanted to build at least some them as joint MSLR/GNR lines, but evidently this never came to be.

 

However, with the MSLR at Huddersfield, the GNR can gain access to that city with little trouble. The line between Huddersfield and Halifax may actually be built here, and the Dewsbury Loop may not even need to be built, if they can get there via the MSLR.

[1165Valour]

On 10/06/2021 at 17:18, GWRSwindon said:

Working out how the Great Northern's West Riding lines will be altered by a MSLR/GCR Huddersfield line is proving somewhat tricky. If I remember correctly, Watkin had wanted to build at least some them as joint MSLR/GNR lines, but evidently this never came to be.

 

However, with the MSLR at Huddersfield, the GNR can gain access to that city with little trouble. The line between Huddersfield and Halifax may actually be built here, and the Dewsbury Loop may not even need to be built, if they can get there via the MSLR.

The LNWR's twig of a branch from Batley to Birstall was supposed to eventually run to Bradford, but the GNR's line would ultimately be preferred. Here, you may see the Batley-Birstall-Bradford line, but as joint MS&L/GNR. 

[ianathompson]

On 31/12/2021 at 03:33, GWRSwindon said:

The LNWR's twig of a branch from Batley to Birstall was supposed to eventually run to Bradford,

 

I remember this line as the Coddy Bob line.

Coddy was, apparently, a dialect word meaning "little".

It survived into the mid sixties, for freight only.

At one point in his career, when he was based at Batley, my dad used to have to take the bus to Birstall to balance the books there.

 

I studied these two lines (amongst others) for my undergraduate dissertation on coal mining and railways in the West Riding.

I even went to the Houses of Parliament library to examine the (handwritten) evidence presented to Parliament by objectors to the various schemes.

 

The GNR line was preferred because it allegedly gave access to undeveloped coalfields alongside its route.

The LNWR proposal could not access these areas because of the steep scarp slope on the north side of the valley of the Batley Beck.

The LNWR line would have given an easier access to Bradford because the GNR line was notorious for the steep climb away from Batley station (a couple of miles at around 1 in 30 as I recall).

 

As per usual with Victorian railway schemes the truth was "coloured" as wished by the person presenting the evidence.

It is not immediately obvious but the north side of the GNR line, the "Boggards'fields" as they were known, were being exploited by collieries connected to the LNW at West End colliery.

The "Boggards" were supposedly the spirits of the dead but were actually eacaping methane that had become set alight, indicating the presence of coal seams.

 

If you look carefully on the old OS maps that are available here a tramway can be seen running through the woods to Birkby Brow colliery, slightly down hill from the GNR line.

The remains of the tramway were still there in the 70s and 80s, when we used to run along it as part of the cross country group from Batley Grammar School.

A long time ago, now!

 

The only colliery directly connected to the GNR line was that at Howden Clough, just after it crossed the later LNW "New Line".

 

I was only contemplating the subject the other day.

If the LNWR had continued their line through to Bradford I assume that the single line branch would have been doubled.

There was an extensive goods station at Carlinghow and a single platform station at the point where the line crosses Carlinghow Hill, up which the Grammar School was sited.

The station was remote from the town centre.

 

If development had occured it would have made sense to develop a Batley Town/Central station, somewhere near the Field HIll bridge.

This would have given a much more convenient station for the town, rather then the one provided.

 

The passenger services on the Birstall branch were withdrawn in 1917, as a war time economy measure.

They were never reinstated because the parallel tramway, along Brafrod Road, offered a much more frequent and cheaper service.

I can also recall my grandad telling me that people from the Carlinghow area would also walk to Batley station to catch trains, thereby saving the 1d fare, because money was so tight!

 

As an aside on the Boggards, Dewsbury RLFC's new ground was built on the old colliery tip at Shaw Cross.

Much to the delight of Batley suppoerters, of which I am one, they had to check the methane readings before deciding whether it was safe to play a game there!

This created much banter between the supporters but  the practice has now stropped because the readings eventually dropped to a very low level.

 

Ian T

 

 

[1165Valour]

9 hours ago, ianathompson said:

I was only contemplating the subject the other day.

If the LNWR had continued their line through to Bradford I assume that the single line branch would have been doubled.

Indeed, and I suspect the GNR would have been willing to simply use this line rather build their own (rather expensive) one. The Dewsbury loop also seems unlikely to be constructed here.

 

I seem to remember that by the 1860s, relations between the MS&L and GN defrosted significantly, and would stay positive for many years.

Edited January 1, 2022 by GWRSwindon