ScaleTrains buys MTH HO and S scale tooling

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

I think the other major stumbling block is the average US 'mindset' that focuses on a 'successful' model railroad being a basement empire that moves long trains from town to town, for which HO & N are ideal, and O scale less so

 

This is a magazine issue, not an average US modeller mindset.

 

The "basement empire" is likely less than 25% of the US market - too many people simply don't have basements (they either live in places where basements don't exist, or in the trends of the last 20 years the basement is now a finished extension of the house).

 

As noted by Regularity the 4x8 (or 5x9 - ping pong table sized) layout is very common still, as are shelf layouts.

 

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

I bet no one in the USA would look at my space of 17ft x 8ft, and put a 2-rail O Scale layout in it. They'd think it was too small for HO, almost!!!

 

How quickly we forget Tony Koester's Wingate layout, the 30"x 16' shelf layout done for MR in O

 

57 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Out of the box, riding slightly high on the trucks with hi-rail wheels and enormous couplers, remove the trucks, take out a spacing washer and fit (more close to) scale wheels (insulated for 0-scale 2 rail) and new couplers (probably Kadees), and there you are: a model suitable for the scale rather than the toy market. Throw away the trucks and fit new ones, and you can also have a fine scale model. *

 

At which point your potential converts have said screw it, I'll stick with HO or N where I can buy the box and everything is correct.

 

Kadee couplers were the far superior choice for decades when the X2F horn hook coupler was standard, and few people converted - the extra cost and hassle were too much.  The Kadee didn't take over the market until the manufacturers were able to make cheaper clones, at which point the market rapidly switched over and hasn't looked back.

 

When a potential S scale convert looks, and the first thing they see is something American Flyer with those horrible coupler and terrible wheels, most of them they leave.

 

Those who stay to look into it further, are then faced with the additional costs of new trucks, you lose another bunch.

 

Now tell them they need to replace the geared wheelsets on their locos, and you have lost 90%+ of your potential converts.

 

40 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I think the biggest problem with S scale is that the limited market means that the models are sometimes more expensive than 0 scale, which makes the "you have more space, so can have more models" argument even less compelling!

 

Which is why the Lionel SD70ACe is the exact same price in both S and O at TrainWorld.

 

Or why the new ScaleTrains SDL39 that so many people are gushing over is that same price - but it's not, it's $70 more expensive than Rapido's E8 (retail price, DC).

 

Despite the moans of the minority about price, most of the market can be flexible - particularly if it is something they want.

 

No, the biggest problem with S is that they refuse to let go of the past.

 

S scale reminds me of the restaurants that the TV shows of the last 10+ years would go into - where the restaurant is struggling, almost out of business, and they come in with a proper chef (often a celebrity) and a small budget to freshen up the decor.

 

And without fail, when planning changes to the menu to attract new customers, the owner reacts angrily saying a variation of we can't get rid of that because the regulars like it - totally oblivious to the reality that they don't have enough regulars to stay in business.  And changes eventually get made grudgingly.

 

Then comes the "we returned X months later", and over half the time they reverted to the original menu and went out of business.

 

Unless you are happy with S as it is with limited selection (like the comment about the TT modeller in the other thread linked above - if RTR comes to TT I'm going to S), S has a chicken egg situation where it needs more manufacturer support / needs more modellers.

 

Which again brings us back to the hi-rail market has gone O, that ship has sailed.  But there is the potential to bring scale modellers from HO and N into a larger scale with all the benefits it brings - but not if the existing people in S insist on clinging to the past and demanding AF compatibility.  Because the proof it can work already exists - Heljan did it in the UK market, and with much higher prices.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

That said, your criticisms of S are based on looking, and not actually from being an active modeller in S.

 

And when the looking indicates things are so poor, why should I invest money in buying anything?

 

To be fair though, while I haven't bought anything I have done far more research than most people considering S would do and yet I have still come to the same conclusion as those who glance and leave.

 

Yet, showing my stupidity, I keep paying attention hoping things will change for the better.

 

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

"I read an email list and looked at someone's blog" don't really position you as a spokesperson for the scale

 

I've never said I am.

 

What I am however is a representative sample of the people in the hobby would like to consider something larger than HO or N, a group that is turned off the whole obsession with the dying American Flyer, and thus turned off of even experimenting.

 

The model railroading hobby has changed over the last 20 years - we have gone from generic models with molded on details and other cost cutting measures and gone to highly detailed accurate models.  This has been the driving force in both HO and N (and in the UK OO and sort-of 7mm/O - Heljan has been inconsistent).

 

S has ignored the last 20+ years for a variety of reasons.  And the postings elsewhere make it clear that there is a large component of the S community who don't want to modernize with the times, who are quite happy with their 1990s era hobby, and who don't want S to grow in popularity because it means changes they don't like or want.

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

I think the biggest problem with S scale is that the limited market means that the models are sometimes more expensive than 0 scale, which makes the "you have more space, so can have more models" argument even less compelling!

Must admit, that would/does put me off.

 

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Sorry, Jordan, but I think you have taken a stereotype (what is seen, and promulgated in the press) as an archetype (what actually is).

Probably, guilty as charged.

I still don't think many people - either side of The Puddle - would shoe-horn a roundy-roundy O Scale layout into 17ft x 8ft. For UK prototype the 3ft radius curves would be a more severe limit on what models can be run; there is only so much that can be done with transition curves.

Edit, to illustrate - photo added of my HJ 37 & a short 4-wheel BR box van, on said 36" radius curves. An extreme example maybe, but no amount of transition curves will help get to that radius without BIG trouble....

 

Also, I haven't forgotten 'Wingate', but it was 16ft without any staging, and I was thinking in terms of roundy-roundys. Plenty of Brits are building O Scale shunty-planks shorter than 17ft, but not ovals.

Edited February 2, 2021 by F-UnitMad

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

At which point your potential converts have said screw it, I'll stick with HO or N where I can buy the box and everything is correct.

 

When a potential S scale convert looks, and the first thing they see is something American Flyer with those horrible coupler and terrible wheels, most of them they leave.

 

Those who stay to look into it further, are then faced with the additional costs of new trucks, you lose another bunch.

 

Now tell them they need to replace the geared wheelsets on their locos, and you have lost 90%+ of your potential converts.

A fair description, but outside of the Flyonel market, S scale is for modellers who want to make an effort beyond just opening the box.

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

What I am however is a representative sample of the people in the hobby would like to consider something larger than HO or N, a group that is turned off the whole obsession with the dying American Flyer, and thus turned off of even experimenting.

That makes you a slightly better informed outsider, but other than as a potential source of coach bodies for making Osgood-Bradley coaches (ironically called “American Flyer” coaches, I have never had an interest in AF, dying or not. Never paid it any attention or interest.

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

S has ignored the last 20+ years for a variety of reasons. 

I think you must be less well-informed than you think, for that is simply not the case. Being S scale and therefore of minority interest, developments simply don’t appear in the mainstream press. Laser cut kits, resin, etched parts, 3D printing, on board remote-DCC battery power: these are all in use in S. A lot of this has been covered by Trevor Marshall on his (now sadly defunct for the most part) Port Roman blog, as you must be aware as you mentioned it as a source of your materials. 

 

I can only conclude that you don’t have a full picture of S, which is as much the “fault” of the S scale community as anything, but most are happily modelling, and accept the lack of coverage in the mainstream press as a natural consequence of following a minority path. The only way to know about S is to throw off the shackles of RTR, and do some modelling in it.

[mdvle]

20 hours ago, Regularity said:

A fair description, but outside of the Flyonel market, S scale is for modellers who want to make an effort beyond just opening the box.

 

Exactly my point - much of the scale community in S doesn't want RTR scale models, and as result they don't want the additional people such a product would bring in to S.

 

They are quite happy with S being an obscure thing.

 

20 hours ago, Regularity said:

That makes you a slightly better informed outsider, but other than as a potential source of coach bodies for making Osgood-Bradley coaches (ironically called “American Flyer” coaches, I have never had an interest in AF, dying or not. Never paid it any attention or interest.

 

Good for you.

 

But all the people stating that anything ScaleTrains must do must remain compatible with AF is a pretty good indication that your viewpoint is not shared by the majority.

 

20 hours ago, Regularity said:

I think you must be less well-informed than you think, for that is simply not the case. Being S scale and therefore of minority interest, developments simply don’t appear in the mainstream press. Laser cut kits, resin, etched parts, 3D printing, on board remote-DCC battery power: these are all in use in S. A lot of this has been covered by Trevor Marshall on his (now sadly defunct for the most part) Port Roman blog, as you must be aware as you mentioned it as a source of your materials. 

 

The change of the last 10+ years has been the move to highly detailed scale locos and rolling stock that allow limited modeller time to be spent elsewhere - and the insistence on AF compatibility means that yes the hobby has left S behind

 

20 hours ago, Regularity said:

 The only way to know about S is to throw off the shackles of RTR, and do some modelling in it.

 

Which explains it all - the view that RTR is terrible and real modellers don't use it, because real modellers scratchbuild and detail basic stuff with custom painting - as I said, the mainstream hobby 20+ years ago.

 

I think it's great that you enjoy it, that for you that is what the hobby is.  But for many/most of us we see that a factory in China can create something of a far higher quality than we ever can - because we can't devote the 1,000's of hours to mastering all of the necessary skills and still build and operate a layout (and in many cases still end up with a loco with a poor paint job that looks terrible).

 

[F-UnitMad]

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

much of the scale community in S doesn't want RTR scale models, and as result they don't want the additional people such a product would bring in to S.

Sounds like a lot of UK O-scalers when Heljan came along, followed by even more, cheaper R-T-R.....

[Wendell1976]

On 02/02/2021 at 10:33, F-UnitMad said:

I bet no one in the USA would look at my space of 17ft x 8ft, and put a 2-rail O Scale layout in it. They'd think it was too small for HO, almost!!!

 

Here's a pair of examples of a small 2-rail O scale layout built here in The States(Chicagoland):

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15624

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/31878

 

Wendell

Idaho, USA

[F-UnitMad]

10 hours ago, Wendell1976 said:

 

Here's a pair of examples of a small 2-rail O scale layout built here in The States(Chicagoland):

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/15624

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/31878

 

Wendell

Idaho, USA

Yes, I was certainly familiar with Damin's first shelf switcher there. How could I not, with his fabulous Soo Line "Bandit" Geep??!!

In my original comment ("I bet no one in the USA would look at my space of 17ft x 8ft, and put a 2-rail O Scale layout in it. They'd think it was too small for HO, almost!!!")  I was thinking more in terms of a roundy-roundy layout; the idea of small or short shelf-switching layouts is catching on in the US, but small ovals? In 2-rail O? ..maybe not so much.