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Inter-regional Coaching stock formations


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Hi guys, 

 

I'm wanting to add some 'prototypical' variety, and i've seen a few photos of Southern/Southern region locomotives at the head of a rake of GWR coaches. With a little bit of digging I can already tell that the rakes are made up of a fairly large mix of stock. 

 

Does anyone have any good images, or approximate suggestions for what a typical rake of GW stock on other railways (specicifally the Southern) might look like?

 

Thanks in advance!

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The Marshalling Diagrams were published to describe the make up of each train.  For example, in pre-grouping days on the North to West joint line, the train would have been made up of carriages from both the LNWR and GWR.  There were also other through carriages such as a Calendonian break composite that ran from Glasgow to Weston super Mare.  The Sunny South Special was an LNWR train that ran down to the South Eastern cost.

 

Marshalling Diagrams (that's what the LNWR called them anyway) unfortunately are rarer to find than Working Timetables (Service Timetables in GWR parlance).  If you can get hold of one for the line and period you are interested in, then that should provide the information.  A line Society may have access to copies.

 

As a starter, most through carriages were break composites (for obvious reasons as they would have been marshalled many times between trains).  GWR break composites are hard to come by but in 4mm Worsley Works have some kits.  

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3 hours ago, Brassey said:

GWR break composites are hard to come by but in 4mm Worsley Works have some kits.  

True, but worth remembering that Bachmann did a GWR Collett 'large window' E159 brake compo, along with a matching third, which made a refreshing and useful change from the usual RTR compo and brake 3rd pair.  Though of no use if one's modelling any period before 1938.

 

John C.

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"Train Formations & Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway"  by WS Beckett contains some information on the vehicles used and thier operating company if you can weed it out.

 

Much will depend on the specific location you are modeling (assuming it is specific!)

 

I suspect some of these inter-regional services could involve fairly long rakes to be authentic, so you may need a good sized layout.

 

It's something of interest to myself so I'll see what I can turn up.

 

Pete.

 

 

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A lot of GWR passenger carrying stock was barred from working over other railways because it was outside their loading gauge.  The situation was both extremely complex and - over the years - a moving target as new stock came into traffic or restrictions were altered for various reasons.  Depending on the period you are modelling the simplest guide of all with GWR stock going foreign was the small yellow dot painted on teh end of coaches which indicated that generally they were allowed over most routes off the GWR system.

 

Generally apart from various through vehicles or portions, and again depending on period, most inter-company workings tended to be fairly complete formations especially to/from the SR.  It all depends on the period and area you are modelling so knowing that might help.  Regrettably the only 20th century GWR peace time long distance coach working programme I have got is for 1947 but in that all workings of GWR passenger stock to/from the SR are complete trains of GWR stock with no mixing with other company's vehicles. 

 

 

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https://railwaywondersoftheworld.com/ports.html

 

The above article contains a description of the Newcastle-Barry port-to-port express, including makeup. The core makeup was LNER alternating with GWR, but various other coaches were added or taken off en route. When the LNER stock was going in one direction the GWR stock was going in the other. Part of the route was over the single-track Cheltenham/Kingham/Banbury line.

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In the Summer of 1912 the 09:45 Birkenhead to Bournemouth was made up of: Van Third, Compo, Dining Car, Van Third (LSWR Corridor stock).  An ex-Manchester portion (dep.10:15) was added (presumably at Crewe) made up of:  Van third, Compo, Van third (GWR Corridor Stock).

 

The overall instructions stated that: "1. Through Trains must be formed with Coaches of the best class."

 

Source: Great Western Railway Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains July 13th to September 30th 1912 inclusive

 

 

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The Bristol to Salisbury section has several workings a day that alternated Southern and GWR stock, some a mix with through coaches to far away places such as Brighton. Southern coaches tended to be the made up sets. with alternating GWR and SR dining facilities.  In the 1930's Cardiff - Portsmouth trains often having an IronClad set. The David Geen et al Soole books show many of these trains. Henry Casserley appeared very active as well. I have several of his images showing moguls and Bulldogs on LSWR coaching sets working Salisbury to Bristol trains.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Having looked through the publication I referred to above, I have not really turned much up. As others have said the trains seemed to run as sets provided alternately between GWR and SR.

One example:

 

12:20 Cardiff – Portsmouth & Southsea (16:53)

BTK > TK > Restaurant car > CK >BTK.

 

If you want to run a few GWR coaches and can handle a 5 coach train this can be built from the 2016 tool Collett bow ended stock plus a Restaurant car from the Railroad range. A cheaper way would be to use the older Railroad versions of the BTK and CK and a second-hand Mainline 60’ TK.

 

What I can’t say is what breed of locomotive would be hauling them…

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8 hours ago, Philou said:

Would @The Johnster be able to help regarding the loco - just a thought?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Your faith in my level of erudition is encouraging but misfounded, Philou; I do not know all that much about pre-war matters, at least not at this level of detail.  Between Salisbury and Cardiff (most such trains in those days did not reverse at Temple Meads but called at Stapleton Road, with locos working throughout and running via the North Somerset Jc-Dr Day's Road Bridge Jc curve), locos would possibly be 43xx, City/Atbara, Bulldog, Churchward County, or maybe Saint, from Salisbury GW shed or Canton, but don't quote me...

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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Your faith in my level of erudition is encouraging but misfounded, Philou; I do not know all that much about pre-war matters, at least not at this level of detail.  Between Salisbury and Cardiff (most such trains in those days did not reverse at Temple Meads but called at Stapleton Road, with locos working throughout and running via the North Somerset Jc-Dr Day's Road Bridge Jc curve), locos would possibly be 43xx, City/Atbara, Bulldog, Churchward County, or maybe Saint, from Salisbury GW shed or Canton, but don't quote me...

 Spot on. Most images I have, especially towards the ends of the 1930's have 43xx and Bulldogs on the 3/4/5 coach workings from Salisbury and Saints on the longer trains. The Southern took their share with Southern U moguls , D15 and T9 on earlier workings which terminated at Bristol. I have a shot of an Arthur somewhere, but this is the only one I have seen.

 

Towards the end of the 1930's Westbury had ne 7809/14 allocated for a while and they would have joined in on these workings. Postwar Westbury had a pet Modified Hall which was a regular on workings from Salisbury - as the new they would get it back, same day!

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Hi

Slightly out of the GWR SR area.  The attached photo, taken in 1939, shows an LNER  ex NBR D30 Jingling Geordie at Inverkeithing heading south to the Forth Bridge.  I have been told that it was an Aberdeen  Penzance service.  Can any one confirm this and any ideas what the coach would be.   There are no photographer details  so N Blackburn Collection.

img076.jpg

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This thread parallels another one that is on the go currently about SR stock working through onto the GWR, which may contain relevant info.

 

 

Of course, there were several places/routes where GWR stock came onto SR/BR(S), and the trains were somewhat different in nature, so "typical" is quite difficult to pin-down.

 

Date also makes a lot of difference.

 

Taking a service that has long fascinated me, Birkenhead to Dover/Margate etc:

 

- That seems to have begun in late-Victorian times as through coaches, not an entire train, and I believe that special short slip-carriages were built for it, being released from a Birkenhead to Paddington train at Reading, then attached to an SER train to go forward. The initial purpose was to get between ships, for example from a transatlantic liner docking at Liverpool and a ferry to France;

 

- domestic holiday traffic developed, and by some date that I can't yet pin (c1905??) there was an entire train in each direction, two in each direction in summer;

 

- again at a date that I can't pin-down, things settled so that the SECR/SR and GWR  provided a rake of coaches each, with each running N and S on alternating days, M-Sa;

 

- By the mid/late 30s, the GWR seems to have supplied a Collet rake, and the SR a Maunsell rake, and that seems to have remained the case until Mk1 arrived c1960;

 

- Because the train had multiple portions on the Southern, splitting at Redhill and again at Ashford(?), the sub-rakes were very short, two three-car portions and a two-car portion in the low -season.

 

Upshot? You could see a three-car Collet rake, one car being catering, forming an entire train, behind a Mogul or a 4-4-0 on the Brighton main line.

 

As an aside, the LMS "Sunny South Express" was similarly multi-portioned and similarly short at low season, so you could also see an entire train consisting of three ex-LNWR coaches, one a 12 wheeled diner, trundling down to Brighton.

 

Why were these little rakes not tacked-onto other trains? EMUs, everything else was EMUs.

 

Long rambling reply, like the train, only to make the point that 'typical' and 'obvious' aren't words that really go very well with this subject.

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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It is not too clear, but the first train featured shows  a 4 coach GWR set at the head of this train arriving in Newcastle.

 

The GWR used one of the last clerestory diners on the Newcastle service. Some of the published shots of the H7 are taken at York.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

 

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