Bachmann Spring 2021 - New products

[tomparryharry]

The 3-month  announcement is good business; at least for Bachmann. The 94xx is a classic case in point. The initial RRP was sub £90, whereas Bachmann would have liked it quite a bit higher. With the long announcement gone, Bachmann can spring it on the public at large

 

 

"Here's model xxxx, due in 13 weeks, and the RRP is £xxxx". saves all the tears & teddies, and gives Bachmann a freer hand.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by tomparryharry

[Paul.Uni]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

The initial RRP was sub £90

 

 

No it wasn't, the Hattons made up price for the 94XX was.

 

The RRPs for the 94XX were:

• TBA (at announcement)
• £124.95 (Jan 18)
• £129.95 (Feb 20)

[Black 5 Bear]

2 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

No it wasn't, the Hattons made up price for the 94XX was.

 

The RRPs for the 94XX were:

• TBA (at announcement)
• £124.95 (Jan 18)
• £129.95 (Feb 20)

As Hattons did with the breakdown cranes. From memory, these were priced at at £85 which was never going to be the case.

[Pre Grouping fan]

And also the Brighton Atlantic, was around £90 from memory. 

[tomparryharry]

54 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

No it wasn't, the Hattons made up price for the 94XX was.

 

The RRPs for the 94XX were:

• TBA (at announcement)
• £124.95 (Jan 18)
• £129.95 (Feb 20)

You've rather made my point. If Hattons kicked off with an unrealistically low price, the only way to overcome such publicity is to stall the project until the price matches up. Loss of return for Bachmann, 100+ pages of wailing & gnashing of teeth on here. I'll bet there was hell to pay somewhere!

[caradoc]

13 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

If Hattons kicked off with an unrealistically low price, the only way to overcome such publicity is to stall the project until the price matches up. Loss of return for Bachmann, 100+ pages of wailing & gnashing of teeth on here.

 

I'm trying hard to understand this; What you appear to be saying is that because one retailer announced an unrealistically low price for a new model, the manufacturer chose, or was effectively forced, into deliberately delaying the release of that model, in this case by years, so that when the true RRP was announced it didn't make them look quite as bad ?

 

[TravisM]

I generally use the release price as a guide and not fact as a lot of variables which we're not privy to can affect the final retail price.  It seems there's far to many people who want the release price set in stone and cry merry hell if it isn't.

[The Johnster]

I think what happened in the case of the 94xx is that the original price, which I remember for 2016 and 17 as being sub-£90, increased in line with the passed on costs increases of other comparable Bachmann locos such as 57xx/8750.  The sheer length of the lead time made this inevitable as labour costs and factory fees in China have increased over the last decade and are continuing to do so.  As I've often said, despite being a poor pensioner, I have no problem with this; Chinese people work hard and give us value for money products, and earn their 2 holidays a year, nice car, HD tv, computer, smartphone etc.  The days of being on a waiting list for a Flying Pigeon bicycle are over!

 

It seems very unlikely to me that Bachmann deliberately held the 94xx or any other model back so that they could charge a higher price for it; I am an inveterate conspiracy theorist who has an innately low level of trust of business enterprises but that concept is too much even for me.  I am sure that TPH was not suggesting anything of the sort. 

 

The current RRP for the 94xx is, IIRC, £129.99, a fiver more than a 57xx.  I got mine from Rails of Sheffield on pre-order at £106.99, their price at the time I pre-ordered which they honoured despite charging a tenner or so for new orders at the time the locos arrived.  It is still the most expensive single item I have ever bought for a model railway, I am absolutely delighted with it, and consider it value for money even at the RRP, never mine what I paid; kudos Rails, and Bachmann (eventually).

 

It is not reasonable given the rising costs in China to expect a company that announced a sub £90 expected RRP in 2017 to honour that price 4 years later, and to be fair Bachmann announced their price increases in good time for the release (very good time, actually, but all is forgiven as I watch the loco take up the load of a loaded mineral train and draw gently away at walking pace or less under complete control, a delight to own and operate).

[Paul.Uni]

17 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think what happened in the case of the 94xx is that the original price, which I remember for 2016 and 17 as being sub-£90, increased in line with the passed on costs increases of other comparable Bachmann locos such as 57xx/8750. 

No what happened was Bachmann did not release a RRP for the 94XX until 2018 and Hattons made up a price. For some reason people took, and still do, the Hattons price as official.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Paul.Uni

[The Johnster]

Me included apparently.  So the question arises 'what was the first official Bachmann RRP in 2018'?; I have £114.99 in my head but am not claiming it to be correct!

[Paul.Uni]

As I posted earlier £124.95

[tomparryharry]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

I'm trying hard to understand this; What you appear to be saying is that because one retailer announced an unrealistically low price for a new model, the manufacturer chose, or was effectively forced, into deliberately delaying the release of that model, in this case by years, so that when the true RRP was announced it didn't make them look quite as bad ?

 

 

In a word, yes.  I'm not party to Bachmann's inner workings, but I've seen it in other business where product is 'temporally unavailable' until the RRP matches the unit cost. 

 

It's happened before, and it'll happen again.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

And therefore the Class 66 model was perhaps not the only chafing point that led to the rift between Bachmann and Hatton's?

 

John

[Legend]

If a manufacturer can’t give a price on announcement then I can’t  take it seriously . It either means they haven’t costed it properly  and therefore is years away. Or they are holding the price back for fear they will attract criticism /ridicule for high price. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

 

11 minutes ago, Legend said:

If a manufacturer can’t give a price on announcement then I can’t  take it seriously . It either means they haven’t costed it properly  and therefore is years away. Or they are holding the price back for fear they will attract criticism /ridicule for high price. 

 

It doesnt happen a lot these days and I think confined to Bachmann up till their change of policy on announcements. They announced items before much work was done so hadn't had costs from the factory.

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, Legend said:

If a manufacturer can’t give a price on announcement then I can’t  take it seriously . It either means they haven’t costed it properly  and therefore is years away. Or they are holding the price back for fear they will attract criticism /ridicule for high price. 

Trouble is, the manufacturing environment in China is somewhat volatile. Even if you can be sure of getting the product out within (say) two years, costings can be affected by unforseen factors like a local authority wanting the factory site for a more prestigious industry.

 

Do they go with their initial costings or factor in an extra 10 or 15% to avoid the flak they'll inevitably draw if they can't stick to the first price announced?

 

Damned if they do and damned if they don't?

 

John

 

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

And therefore the Class 66 model was perhaps not the only chafing point that led to the rift between Bachmann and Hatton's?

 

John

 Possibly. But if Hatton's put an incorrect RRP on the model, and, they've got perhaps 1,000 orders, then Bachmann have been 'stitched up like a kipper'.   Bachmann would be in a difficult spot; they can't go public and say, "actually, it's £xxx:95 instead" in front of their biggest box-shifter client. Open face arguments like this are bad for business....  What to do? Nothing, that's what. Just sit on it, and let it blow over. It's in development" is the oft-quoted phrase.  Bachmann very probably lost some income over this gaffe. Time delay between development  and release. Otherwise known as 'dead money'. They probably would have released the model in 2019, but having to hold back to allow the unit RRP to close the gap... 

 

Bachmann need to stay viable. Removing the long-delay gap down to 3 months is good business for Bachmann. Bringing in the pricing allows far greater control for hem.  If I was in Bachmann's shoes, I'd be taking exactly the same course of action.

 

 

Looking up the various laws about sale of goods acts are fairly strict on this sort of thing.  Hatton's could so easily been 'up the Sewanee' over this.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Dunsignalling]

As things turned out, of course, Hatton's  never had to worry about how much to charge for a 94xx, because their trading relationship with Bachmann was over by the time it finally arrived.

 

John

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

 

 

Looking up the various laws about sale of goods acts are fairly strict on this sort of thing.  Hatton's could so easily been 'up the Sewanee' over this.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Why? Any advertised price is just an "invitation to treat" there would be no need for Hattons to sell at the lower price.

[tomparryharry]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

As things turned out, of course, Hatton's  never had to worry about how much to charge for a 94xx, because their trading relationship with Bachmann was over by the time it finally arrived.

 

John

Quite.

[tomparryharry]

Just now, spamcan61 said:

Why? Any advertised price is just an "invitation to treat" there would be no need for Hattons to sell at the lower price.

 It's a binding contract once money has been accepted & taken for the pre-order......

[andyman7]

8 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 It's a binding contract once money has been accepted & taken for the pre-order......

Which is why money is NOT taken for a pre-order....

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 It's a binding contract once money has been accepted & taken for the pre-order......

 

It's odd that Hattons, a firm who do a enormous amount of business, haven't spotted this, but someone on the web has. My guess is that it has occurred to them, and is covered in the T&C's that hardly anyone bothers to read. If you are going to get all legal, I think we'd all appreciate it if you started quoting from them along with the appropriate failings. After all, you'd have to do that in court if your argument was going to stand up.

[tomparryharry]

Just now, andyman7 said:

Which is why money is NOT taken for a pre-order....

 

3 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's odd that Hattons, a firm who do a enormous amount of business, haven't spotted this, but someone on the web has. My guess is that it has occurred to them, and is covered in the T&C's that hardly anyone bothers to read. If you are going to get all legal, I think we'd all appreciate it if you started quoting from them along with the appropriate failings. After all, you'd have to do that in court if your argument was going to stand up.

 Well, I'm not going to court, I've got my 94xx in front of me! I do agree that things go Topsy- Turvy very quickly in our little goldfish bowl. 

 

By a parting example, I'll offer up the debacle between 20th Century-Fox, and 21st Century-Fox....  A multi-billion industry giant.....

[Legend]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Trouble is, the manufacturing environment in China is somewhat volatile. Even if you can be sure of getting the product out within (say) two years, costings can be affected by unforseen factors like a local authority wanting the factory site for a more prestigious industry.

 

Do they go with their initial costings or factor in an extra 10 or 15% to avoid the flak they'll inevitably draw if they can't stick to the first price announced?

 

Damned if they do and damned if they don't?

 

John

 

But that’s no different from any other industry John.  People sign contracts for supply taking into account foreign exchange , rising prices . Model railways are not unique .  Interestingly last year prices were down across the board as demand dropped  now they are bouncing back with polystyrene , polypropylene etc all increasing .  My point is , other industries , some with very fine margins deal with this . What makes model railways unique?
 

 By the way the £ has risen considerably against the $ are we seeing reductions in prices ..........

Edited April 10, 2021 by Legend