RMweb Gold TomE Posted August 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2021 21 minutes ago, Solo said: Or does it mean that product does not yet have a release date? ^ That, I'm afraid! Tom. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 Awaiting means that it does not have a release date as of yet. Of the currently announced Farish models: 81 have a release date and are currently due in the next 10 months. 19 of the awaiting models are from new or modified tooling. the remaining 30 awaiting models are from existing tooling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted August 8, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2021 There's no denying that Farish's range of models is a huge step forward to where it was in the late 1990s/early 2000s. If you wanted a Mk1 you had a choice of SK, BCK and RMB. For Mk2s you just had the choice of first or second class opens! What is really frustrating is the length of time between reruns - especially in recent years. The Blue-Ribbon Mk2a appeared in 2013 in Blue/grey and was re-run in 2015. After that, no more blue-grey. Yes there was Highland-land and NSE in train sets but no regular run model. Want a Mk1 SK in maroon? First released in 2010, then again in 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2016. After that, no Mk1 SK in any livery until 2019! All rather frustrating! Steven B 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBM37404 Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 I am currently on to planning a Scottish 90s N layout, procuring the stock is proving to be a headache. Should I go for an old 158 or save my pennies for the new one? Looks like it's a long way off anyhow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted August 8, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2021 2 hours ago, JBM37404 said: I am currently on to planning a Scottish 90s N layout, procuring the stock is proving to be a headache. Should I go for an old 158 or save my pennies for the new one? Looks like it's a long way off anyhow? I wouldn't purchase a 158 until your layout is ready to go. The old model is seriously dated being nearly 30 years old (with the odd minor improvement in this time). If the new model has still not been released when you need it for your model then make your mind up at that point. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowley 47521 Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 4 hours ago, JBM37404 said: I am currently on to planning a Scottish 90s N layout, procuring the stock is proving to be a headache. Should I go for an old 158 or save my pennies for the new one? Looks like it's a long way off anyhow? I would say concentrate on buying what is available and is of good enough quality that you’d be happy with it now if you want to start stockpiling for a new project. I guess you don’t need a huge amount of stock for a layout like that so be a bit discerning and patient until the correct things are available even if it takes a couple of years maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 7 hours ago, Steven B said: There's no denying that Farish's range of models is a huge step forward to where it was in the late 1990s/early 2000s. If you wanted a Mk1 you had a choice of SK, BCK and RMB. For Mk2s you just had the choice of first or second class opens! What is really frustrating is the length of time between reruns - especially in recent years. The Blue-Ribbon Mk2a appeared in 2013 in Blue/grey and was re-run in 2015. After that, no more blue-grey. Yes there was Highland-land and NSE in train sets but no regular run model. Want a Mk1 SK in maroon? First released in 2010, then again in 2011, 2012, 2014 and 2016. After that, no Mk1 SK in any livery until 2019! All rather frustrating! Steven B Interesting Steven. I am not saying there is any connection but it is curious that 2016 was the year when Graham Hubbard retired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2021 Wasn’t one of the reasons that Farish got purchased by Bachmann that GF was struggling? The Mk1 and Mk3 from Farish both had upgrades at various points under GF from window strips to solid bodies. I’m far from convinced that you could ever model the majority of lines with available (at the same time) ranges. Too many units missing. Batch production is here to stay and has given us far more choice of models than we’ve ever had. Whilst it is frustrating waiting for the next batch we’ve also got to be realistic that just because we want something doesn’t mean there’s sufficient demand to do a new batch (unless we want 1000+ of something!). 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2021 Wasn’t one of the reasons that Farish got purchased by Bachmann that GF was struggling? The Mk1 and Mk3 from Farish both had upgrades at various points under GF from window strips to solid bodies. I’m far from convinced that you could ever model the majority of lines with available (at the same time) ranges. Too many units missing. Batch production is here to stay and has given us far more choice of models than we’ve ever had. Whilst it is frustrating waiting for the next batch we’ve also got to be realistic that just because we want something doesn’t mean there’s sufficient demand to do a new batch (unless we want 1000+ of something!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, Revolution Mike said: Batch production is here to stay and has given us far more choice of models than we’ve ever had. Whilst it is frustrating waiting for the next batch we’ve also got to be realistic that just because we want something doesn’t mean there’s sufficient demand to do a new batch (unless we want 1000+ of something!). There's no doubt that batch production has its advantages - multiple running numbers for example. However, is 5+ years not enough to build up demand for Mk2a TSO or Mk1 SK? I find it interesting that a 3-4 year gap is sufficient for Revolution Trains to consider a second run of Pendolino, yet Farish can't do the same with bread-and-butter Mk1 and Mk2s. I struggle to understand how we've got from regular re-runs of every day models to occasional odd-balls (white roof Intercity BCK for example). I appreciate there's been a global recession, a major pandemic and a relaunched Thomas range, but why not let existing tooling earn some cash? Steven B. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott B Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, Steven B said: There's no doubt that batch production has its advantages - multiple running numbers for example. However, is 5+ years not enough to build up demand for Mk2a TSO or Mk1 SK? I find it interesting that a 3-4 year gap is sufficient for Revolution Trains to consider a second run of Pendolino, yet Farish can't do the same with bread-and-butter Mk1 and Mk2s. I struggle to understand how we've got from regular re-runs of every day models to occasional odd-balls (white roof Intercity BCK for example). I appreciate there's been a global recession, a major pandemic and a relaunched Thomas range, but why not let existing tooling earn some cash? Steven B. I couldn't agree more Steven,. The re-runs used to be much more frequent. Demand for the Mk2a TSO in Blue/Grey is there as they are current going for £70+ on a certain auction site. Although I am not currently requiring any of them there are other Blue/Grey coach variants I am after and they too are not currently available and are going for silly prices. Scott 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fezza Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Scott B said: I couldn't agree more Steven,. The re-runs used to be much more frequent. Demand for the Mk2a TSO in Blue/Grey is there as they are current going for £70+ on a certain auction site. Although I am not currently requiring any of them there are other Blue/Grey coach variants I am after and they too are not currently available and are going for silly prices. Scott As a single supplier, by artificially restricting supply you push up prices on reruns and make good money producing very little. Easy money and it's the oldest trick in the book... until your customers realise what you are doing or a competitor comes along... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 4 hours ago, fezza said: As a single supplier, by artificially restricting supply you push up prices on reruns and make good money producing very little. Easy money and it's the oldest trick in the book... until your customers realise what you are doing or a competitor comes along... But that's the problem, no competitors are producing Mk1 or similar in N gauge because of the great fear of 'duplication'. Small companies like RevolutioN seem more willing to take a risk on investment in tooling and bring new product to market, and do so much faster then the giants of the industry. Smaller companies are more agile and hence innovative but Kader/Bachmann/Farish seem to be stagnating. It's not all about new products though. I've run businesses for 35 years, and can't imagine a scenario with so much demand for a product, for which I've already amortised R&D costs and where I don't produce a steady flow of those products for sale. These product lines used to be called 'cash cows' because they generated a steady stream of revenue over an extended period of time, and were the solid rock of regular cash flow. Seems businesses today are looking at short term gains , not long term cashflow. If I'd invested a significant amount to bring a product to market, and then didn't use that investment to provide a steady stream of income, my shareholders would have plenty to say. But Kader/Bachmann/Farish don't seem to use the same business model as served me well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2021 But you appear to be extrapolating what we see from Farish to the whole of Kader, when there are comments that it is Kader who are pushing for production runs of more lucrative models (ie not Farish) and are constraining Farish. I’m not defending them, I don’t get why they can’t do batches of bog standard run of the mill coaches and wagons more regularly, but to say “I’ve run businesses for 35 years and Kader don’t know what they’re doing” seems to miss the mark somewhat… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, njee20 said: But you appear to be extrapolating what we see from Farish to the whole of Kader, when there are comments that it is Kader who are pushing for production runs of more lucrative models (ie not Farish) and are constraining Farish. I’m not defending them, I don’t get why they can’t do batches of bog standard run of the mill coaches and wagons more regularly, but to say “I’ve run businesses for 35 years and Kader don’t know what they’re doing” seems to miss the mark somewhat… 2 minutes ago, njee20 said: but to say “I’ve run businesses for 35 years and Kader don’t know what they’re doing” seems to miss the mark somewhat… Seems we don't agree. That's OK but what I'm saying is that Kader are missing the mark - they can be spitting out popular items in other areas but they have an investment which isn't generating a revenue stream right now. The trick to a successful business used to be that you'd have as many 'cash cow' lines running as possible, not switch from one to the other - basic cash-flow stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, DaveArkley said: It's not all about new products though. I've run businesses for 35 years, and can't imagine a scenario with so much demand for a product, for which I've already amortised R&D costs and where I don't produce a steady flow of those products for sale. These product lines used to be called 'cash cows' because they generated a steady stream of revenue over an extended period of time, and were the solid rock of regular cash flow. Seems businesses today are looking at short term gains , not long term cashflow. If I'd invested a significant amount to bring a product to market, and then didn't use that investment to provide a steady stream of income, my shareholders would have plenty to say. But Kader/Bachmann/Farish don't seem to use the same business model as served me well. Or Kader know very well what sells and it happens to sell better in other parts of the world where the return on investment is higher. My understanding (and how the company that employs me works), is that every item that goes into a production slot will have a predetermined profit margin and those with the biggest margins will be prioritised for slots. Just because we want some Mk2 coaches doesn't mean that they will sell with the necessary profit margin determined by Kader to get a slot. Each re-run also takes the place of a new item without which we would be accusing Bachmann of doing a Dapol and simply re-running the same stuff over and over rather than developing new items. Kader only has so much production capacity, that will determine what gets produced, Efe is an attempt by Bachmann Europe to find additional means to produce models albeit mainly reruns of existing tools, it cannot outsource it's Bachmann tools though otherwise we might have seen more items such as the Mk1 and Mk2 coaches. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, DaveArkley said: Seems we don't agree. That's OK but what I'm saying is that Kader are missing the mark - they can be spitting out popular items in other areas but they have an investment which isn't generating a revenue stream right now. The trick to a successful business used to be that you'd have as many 'cash cow' lines running as possible, not switch from one to the other - basic cash-flow stuff. No, we don't. My general stance on questioning the motivations of global companies with a turnover likely exceeding £100m (Bachmann Europe is £13m) is that they probably have more information at their disposal than a random bloke on a forum. I can see you're unlikely to relent on this, but you still seem to be assuming they could just put every single item into production, and that would be better? They probably have 100 individual Farish models which would sell, and have amortised their tooling costs. But it doesn't work like that. There isn't unconstrained capacity. Perhaps they are attempting to artificially inflate demand. Perhaps Barwell are pushing Kader for more slots. Who knows, but I'll wager the answer isn't that Kader are trying to do a bad job as you're suggesting. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 25 minutes ago, njee20 said: a random bloke on a forum. Yes njee, yes I am. Unlike you who seems to be the fount of all knowledge with an imitate knowledge of Kader's inner workings which brooks no questions from anyone else. 'you still seem to be assuming they could just put every single item into production' Nope I'm assuming nothing of the sort. I'm asserting that a higher margin of profit, and a stable cash-flow might be possible if a production run using tooling which is amortised happened on a regular basis. 'Perhaps they are attempting to artificially inflate demand' Perhaps, but I'd have thought margin in their pocket would be better than margin in an eBayers pocket. ' I'll wager the answer isn't that Kader are trying to do a bad job as you're suggesting' I didn't suggest they were doing a bad job, your words not mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2021 No, I'm literally saying I have no idea whatsoever about the inner workings of their business, and whilst outwardly it seems peculiar, I wouldn't presume to tell them how to run their business. Anyway, this is grossly tangential, and moving into petty nit picking. Enjoy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2021 Don't forget that N gauge in the UK is tiny incomparison to other markets. So the small batches of repeat runs probably aren't that profitable, compared to other scales/markets. Just consider the Kato IEP, where the UK only received a small percentage of the production run, and the reason they were able to sell it so cheaply here, is their domestic market is huge in comparison, so the run was something like 20 times bigger. There are bigger, more lucrative markets out there where Kader will reap the greatest rewards. We'll get trickle fed with a mix of new, re-tooled, and re-runs, until N becomes bigger, but due to those constraints, it will struggle to grow. Catch 22 situation really.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 (edited) It's not exactly plain sailing at Kader at the moment, HK$ loss of 109,000 for 2020/21 and 16% drop in revenue due to Covid plus worsening relations between the US and China. https://www.kader.com.hk/investor_relations/pdf/result2020e.pdf Edited August 9, 2021 by woodenhead adjusted the revenue drop figure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TomE Posted August 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 9, 2021 Latest update from the club mag: In the Tool Room: Class 158 DMU (New Tooling) Class 14 (Sound Upgrade) Engineering Prototypes received or awaited: BR Standard 5MT (Sound Upgrade) Livery Samples received or awaited: Class 60 (Sound Upgrade) Class 450 EMU Class 47 (Crewe Cut) Approved for Production: Class 319 EMU Tom. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted August 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 10, 2021 On 08/08/2021 at 23:13, Roy L S said: Interesting Steven. I am not saying there is any connection but it is curious that 2016 was the year when Graham Hubbard retired. Similarly I wonder if the launch of Sonic Models has something to do with Colin Albright and product designer Sam's frustration at lack of movement from Kader with regards to the development and production of the Farish rage. It's interesting that their first three models (VEA, 56xx and J50) are all in the Bachmann 4mm catalogue. Steve B. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul.Uni Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 J50 is Hornby not Bachmann. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, Steven B said: Similarly I wonder if the launch of Sonic Models has something to do with Colin Albright and product designer Sam's frustration at lack of movement from Kader with regards to the development and production of the Farish rage. It's interesting that their first three models (VEA, 56xx and J50) are all in the Bachmann 4mm catalogue. Steve B. Or Sam spotted a gap in the market and went for it, unless Dapol markedly up their N gauge output again I doubt he will see a lot of competition in the items he chooses, I think he's mainly a threat to Union Mills if he continues to mine the well of inside valved steam locos. If he picks locos that are generally not in Bachmann's range he won't go wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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